Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

dahill1: 4 (Pathetric, charter, Coriolanus, Tuberkulos)
Xtoxm: 3 (Incognito, Yosarian2, dahill1)
Coriolanus: 3 (Glork, Assmaster, Rally Vincent)
Glork: 1 (Xtoxm)
Rally Vincent: 1 (Erratus Apathos)

Not Voting: 0

[Yosarian2]

Yos is scummy because his post is directed at someone he either knows or believes to be town, he expresses anndoyance at the fact i'm town and claimed my role, rather than finding me suspicious for it (which later changes to once he realises his mistake).

EXPLAIN HOW WHAT I SAID MADE YOU THINK I "EITHER KNOW OR BELIEVE" YOU ARE TOWN. DON'T KEEP REPEATING THE SAME GARBAGE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, EXPLAIN WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

[Yosarian2]

I didn't say it is a bad thing. I just think that you focus too much on Xtoxm, even as he isn't willing to defend himself any further. Either we lynch him or not, but for now he is dealt with. We could still use the remaining time for other things.

So...you would focus

less

on someone because they're refusing to defend themselves?

That dosn't make sense. You focus more and more on them, until they start defending themselves and making sense.

If he refuses to defend himself again and again, you won't get anything out of him, no matter how much you poke him. If you deal with him almost exclusively, you neglect the other players. The outcome of Xtoxm will not change. Either we lynch him or not. I know Xtoxm's attitude isn't helpful, but what do you expect to get out of him?

Bull. 99% of the time, if the town as a whole refuses to accept a certain behavior from a certain player, and the town makes clear that that person will die if he dosn't improve his behavior, the behavior changes.

Of course, so long as you and others keep defending him and keep accepting that kind of behavior from him, he has less reason to change.

[Yosarian2]

I'm actually getting a bit wavery on Xtoxm now, too...I'm painfully aware that only a small part of my read on him is based on his own behavior. But his wagon still gives me a bad feeling, and I still definitely dislike Dahill, so, meh. The impending deadline is actually a bit of a relief to me.

A question to Incognito, Glork, Yosarian2, Erratus Apathos, Rally Vincent, probably some other people I'm forgetting:
Are you in fact aware of the full case against Dahill? What do you think of the contrast between this and this?

Could you explain what you mean?

Like I said, based on meta, I don't really think sheeping is inherently a scumtell coming from Dahill, and I don't have a problem with him following me on Xtoxm. I don't really have a read on Dahill yet, I could equally see him doing everything he's done so far as either town or as scum. If there's more to the case then that, I'd be interested to hear it.

[charter]

Charter, you based your vote on dahill on his reaction to what he thought was a hammer by glork initially. What would have been your reaction if dahill had gone wild and shouting all over the place?

I probably wouldn't have found it as suspicious. I don't think I've mentioned the other reasons I'm suspicious of him as well (since he's done more scummy things since then) I think I just kept saying 'I wanna lynch dahill' or something similar.
He flip flopped on Xtoxm pretty badly. He first says he'd be down for lynching Xtoxm, but knows he plays anti-town as town (and I got the impression that he wouldn't want an Xtoxm lynch due to this fact), then votes him for saying he's playing anti-town (and that's it).
I also don't see any scumhunting. There was that bit with Corio in the beginning, which I also didn't understand from him, and he later dropped that entirely too. Pretty much the only other person I've seen him give an opinion on is tuber, and I don't see how he got to his conclusions.
Ether also has an interesting point in 324.

I'd also say something more along the lines of Corio wants to make it publicly known that he's here and 'scumhunting' when I don't see the need to make it this known to everyone.

where have i done so?

This one

Corio, would you care to respond to my FoS?

don't give a shit, sorry. i meant what i said. if you think that's worth voting me for, just fucking do it, but i'm in the business of scumhunting not defending myself over one comment.

and kind of this one

HThis is at least the second time you've preached about "having better things to do," yet

I DON'T SEE YOU DOING THESE "THINGS" THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

.

thanks for making me read two paragraphs. i guess writing superfluous sentences really makes the bullshit seem more official.

at the beginning of the game, i laid out two things a player could do: start a wagon or join one. i joined one. i've stated my reasoning for joining said wagon. better yet, i've responded to arguments to the contrary, and i commented on another wagon that seems to be gaining popularity.

i could also engage in oratorical gymnastics. but i'm not going to, because that's not what a fucking townie does. i might as well take pictures of me dancing a tango on my desk. i'm actually going to focus on the game and do what i think a townie does.

[Coriolanus]

EXPLAIN HOW WHAT I SAID MADE YOU THINK I "EITHER KNOW OR BELIEVE" YOU ARE TOWN. DON'T KEEP REPEATING THE SAME GARBAGE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, EXPLAIN WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

but dahill is the lynch.

[Coriolanus]

He flip flopped on Xtoxm pretty badly. He first says he'd be down for lynching Xtoxm, but knows he plays anti-town as town (and I got the impression that he wouldn't want an Xtoxm lynch due to this fact), then votes him for saying he's playing anti-town (and that's it).

i voted xtoxm for the pressure wagon. this is untrue.

I also don't see any scumhunting. There was that bit with Corio in the beginning, which I also didn't understand from him, and he later dropped that entirely too. Pretty much the only other person I've seen him give an opinion on is tuber, and I don't see how he got to his conclusions.

also untrue. i've provided my thoughts on

everyone

last page. why didn't you bother to fact check?

as to your quoted posts, it was a defense of my actions, not a random proclamation. you haven't explained why this is scummy.

[Pathetric]

Could you explain what you mean?

Like I said, based on meta, I don't really think sheeping is inherently a scumtell coming from Dahill, and I don't have a problem with him following me on Xtoxm. I don't really have a read on Dahill yet, I could equally see him doing everything he's done so far as either town or as scum. If there's more to the case then that, I'd be interested to hear it.

What do you think of the contrast between this and this? What do you mean, "what do I mean?"

By the first "this," I meant,

on that note,

unvote vote tuber

for voting assmaster with seemingly no reason,

and i found it strange (scummy strange) that he didn't even really comment on xtoxm..

By the second "this," I meant,

4. stating "X is scum" and giving no real reason why.

take it away, glrok!

Originally I was going to post something along the lines of "because I said so" to draw this out and further illustrate my point, but I don't really feel like doing that, so I'm just going to explain very bluntly.

A few underlying principles:
1) Players -- especially when scum -- like to be comfortable. Bringing pressure that is difficult to respond to pulls them out of their comfort zones, making them react in a way they normally wouldn't react. This makes it significantly more likely that they will say or do something particularly telling of their alignments.
2) In the long-term, players often reveal the most about themselves when acting on limited information. While this maxim generally applies to the notion that D1 and D2 are the most revealing parts of a mafia game, it also applies when dealing with "unexplained votes."
2a) Let's look at the general case of an unexplained vote from a player of unknown alignment. The motivation for a protown player is to discern the intent of the voter, generally in order to obtain their alignment. The motivation of an anti-town player is to discern the intent of the voter (which sometimes involves seeking alignment) and to best utilize the situation to their advantage. There is an important, if subtle, difference. By cultivating our exploration of these differences, we can find new tools to seek and destroy the scumbaggoes amongst us.
2b) Now consider the case where I am a confirmed protown player making an unexplainded vote. In this case, my motivation is very clear. In some way, I am seeking to find scum. Here, I'm actually going to dip into one of my trade secrets and note that protown players tend to have a broader picture of our voter's intent, whereas scums tend to focus more on themselves (or, sometimes, their allies). If the person I'm voting is more concerened with how everyone else reacts than with deflecting my attack, they are usually more likely to be protown. If they immediately seek to bury someone else in accusations, wildly reject my vote/claims outright, or blame-shift, they're more likely to be scum.
3) Taking an alternate approach to scumhunting allows one to take advantage of "weak points" in other players' gameplay. Most mafia is played in the public arena. Players openly debate and discuss who is scum and why. Thus, most people tend to focus most of their attention on growing and evolving as players in this realm of open banter. A couple years ago, I learned that the vast majority of players didn't know how to react to certain circumstances. One such circumtsance was a completely irrational, yet intensely focused onslaught from an established player. This was a very noticeable chink in the mafia community's collective armor, and while you had your Internet Strangers and your Baby Jesuses (the paragons of this style of play), people who effectively played without explanation were very few and far between. Thus, very few players put the necessary time, thought, and effort into ensuring that they new how to interact with these playstyles. Over time, parts of the community evolve, and playing such playstyles shifts and changes just as the overall game meta does. Not only do they not know how to react, and not only do they give more information about themselves, but their weaknesses are actually exploitable, allowing the attacker as an individual to crack other players' shells and expose their soft, fleshy interiors, thus opening the game up for everybody.


And FYI, Xtoxm is a poor benchmark for erratic behavior. It has to be used in moderation, and is really only useful after one has established oneself as being able to consistently find scum using traditional methods. If I had been wild and erratic immediately after joining Scum in 2005, I don't think I'd be anywhere near where I am today. The biggest issue with seemingly :nothelpful: play is that far too many players have no idea when, where or how frequently to utilize it.... so they really do end up just being :nothelpful:. It's awfully hard to explain... something you more have to see and experience over time.

Keep in mind that like these behaviors are also very case-specific. I will not treat Thok the same way I would treat an Oman or a Vollkan or somebody I've never played with.



Now.
Did you know that unexplained votes are the best things ever?

He posted an excuse, but it's pretty obviously bullshit, considering the context of the second quote. I'm taken aback by the number of people who dismiss Dahill's scumminess without acknowledging this contradiction at all...the way that you

quoted me drawing attention to it

and then reiterated how you're okay with his sheeping. I accept that sheeping is in-character for Dahill, but it's not what I'm talking about. I hate his Xtoxmvote and I hate this.

(I'm fuming about this, but looking at it objectively, I don't see a scummy motivation for asking me to elaborate. It'd only serve to make me elaborate.)

If you're asking about the first paragraph, I'm not really sure what else to say on that note. I could be wrong about Xtoxm. Dunno.

Lyrical Rampage, bitches,
-Ether

[charter]

He flip flopped on Xtoxm pretty badly. He first says he'd be down for lynching Xtoxm, but knows he plays anti-town as town (and I got the impression that he wouldn't want an Xtoxm lynch due to this fact), then votes him for saying he's playing anti-town (and that's it).

i voted xtoxm for the pressure wagon. this is untrue.

I also don't see any scumhunting. There was that bit with Corio in the beginning, which I also didn't understand from him, and he later dropped that entirely too. Pretty much the only other person I've seen him give an opinion on is tuber, and I don't see how he got to his conclusions.

also untrue. i've provided my thoughts on

everyone

last page. why didn't you bother to fact check?

This was about dahill, I don't know where you got it was about you from.

as to your quoted posts, it was a defense of my actions, not a random proclamation. you haven't explained why this is scummy.

I never said it was scummy, I said I didn't see the need to do it.
You're 0 for 2 on this one...

[Glork]

I'm taken aback by the number of people who dismiss Dahill's scumminess without acknowledging this contradiction at al

That's probably because "unexplained votes can be awesome/useful" and "unexplained votes can be genuinely scummy" are

FAR

from mutually exclusive. I don't see a contradiction here, though I would be interested to hear why dahill found Tuber's vote to be scummy in that particular instance.

[Glork]

Furthemore, there is a distinct difference between "accusing X of being scum for no reason" and "voting for X without giving a reason." Again, I'll leave it up to dahill to justify that difference, but I think your attempt to meta this is entirely wrong.

[Rally Vincent]

No. If you want Xtoxm to serve as bait, it doesn't matter if he is town or scum, especially since he already draws so much suspicion on him.

How exactly would this work if Xtoxm is scum? What exactly would he be drawing out as a hypothetical scum bait?

Considering that Xtoxm has already drawn much attention, if he was scum, his buddies can always sacrifice him to make themselves look better.

Bull. 99% of the time, if the town as a whole refuses to accept a certain behavior from a certain player, and the town makes clear that that person will die if he dosn't improve his behavior, the behavior changes.

Of course, so long as you and others keep defending him and keep accepting that kind of behavior from him, he has less reason to change.

I already said that I'm willing to lynch Xtoxm unless we find a better target. I don't think it's necessary to repeat that over and over. It's not helping Xtoxm that he doesn't go around trying to find some better lynch, though. But I don't see the sense in pressuring Xtoxm any more then it has been done up to now. Even if he would explain, you'd still be pushing for the Xtoxm lynch, as I understand it is your policy to lynch claimed Vanilla Townies? Then we'd all be sitting with our votes on Xtoxm and not really doing nothing else but waiting for the day to end.

[Coriolanus]

I never said it was scummy, I said I didn't see the need to do it.

either you implied it or there was no reason to bring it up.
also, sorry about reading your points wrong. for what it's worth i agree with you.

[Coriolanus]

and i did it because i thought it needed to be referenced as to what exactly i view a townsperson's goal is.

[Incognito]

Coriolanus's reveal as Simenon really bothers me as I know Simenon is an experienced player and therefore I'm really questioning what it was he was trying to get at earlier when he mentioned that the lack of Glork death "really disappointed" him.

This is odd. It ignores the actual likelihood of this playerlist speedlynching Glork--a likelihood Simenon would be perfectly aware of. If anything, this would have been more scummy from a newbie's keyboard.

If I didn't make my point clear enough when I initially said this in 293, the point I was trying to get at is it seems to me that by using the account "Coriolanus", Simenon could have been attempting to

feign

a certain level of inexperience so as to not be held accountable for the types of scummy things he may have said early on. I could certainly think of this as a potential benefit for anyone who may use an alternate account especially if he or she happens to draw a scum role. You're absolutely right that with the player list in this game, a speed-lynch on

anyone

would likely never happen but that doesn't dismiss the fact that he still mentioned this within thread. That's my issue with Simenon's early posting.

A question to Incognito, Glork, Yosarian2, Erratus Apathos, Rally Vincent, probably some other people I'm forgetting:
Are you in fact aware of the full case against Dahill? What do you think of the contrast between this and this?

Yes, I understand the case against him. You're trying to say that there's a contradiction between dahill1's reasoning that he used to vote for Tuberkulos and what he mentioned in the forum topic you found in Mafia Discussion. I don't see the contradiction though; in the Mafia Discussion topic, dahill1 doesn't seem to lean one way or another on Glork's post that he quoted from ZazieR's GTKAS thread. He doesn't mention anything about "endorsing this product and/or service" or anything like that. He seems to just be presenting the alternate viewpoint.

Incidentally, Primate is still town.

What makes you think this?

[Pathetric]

I don't like Xtoxm's recent play and if I was here on my own, I'd possibly be voting him at this point. He's not behaving like someone who actually thinks Yos2 slipped; in which case I'd be expecting him to be trying hard to explain it rather than being so obstinate. I also don't see much scumhunting from his direction. Still don't see much of a case against Corio, even with alt reveal.

I don't feel like the cases against any of them are substantial. Maybe it's just me, but I can't really read xtoxm the way he's been playing, in the same way that I can't really read natirasha ever. I don't think that Coriolanus's "i'm in the business of scumhunting" post implies that he can't talk about anything else. And that idea that dahill is scummy for agreeing with Yos and Glork on Coriolanus's alt defense being strange is just beyond stupid.

Do you typically skim over large parts of the game? Genuine question, because this quote really gives me that impression. Your sum up of the dahill case in particular is clearly wrong.

Patrick.

[Coriolanus]

Simenon could have been attempting to feign a certain level of inexperience so as to not be held accountable for the types of scummy things he may have said early on.

exactly why i made the account: so i could say what i felt and not have to be meta'd for it.

[Xtoxm]

I don't much like RV's last post. Firstly, I have provided better suspects, Glork and Yos.

Also, he seems to be not really giving an opinion and just saying he bandwagon for me being "antitown" just because everyones saying it. I also contest that.

[Coriolanus]

how many more days do we have? two?

i want EA and xtoxm to vote for the top three (preferably dahill and not me) by the end of the 29th.

[Incognito]

Simenon could have been attempting to feign a certain level of inexperience so as to not be held accountable for the types of scummy things he may have said early on.

exactly why i made the account: so i could say what i felt and not have to be meta'd for it.

So then why do you reference past games that you've played with other people in this game?

[Yosarian2]

He posted an excuse, but it's pretty obviously bullshit, considering the context of the second quote. I'm taken aback by the number of people who dismiss Dahill's scumminess without acknowledging this contradiction at all...the way that you

quoted me drawing attention to it

and then reiterated how you're okay with his sheeping. I accept that sheeping is in-character for Dahill, but it's not what I'm talking about. I hate his Xtoxmvote and I hate this.

Ahhh...ok, I see it now. You think there's a contradiction between his vote here and the stratagy he endorsed in MD. That's a very interesting point.

Dahill, do you have an explination for this? What is your general opinion about someone voting without giving a reason?

[Yosarian2]

I don't much like RV's last post. Firstly, I have provided better suspects, Glork and Yos.

And yet, you refuse to answer these questions:

Um...how about all the reasons I gave for suspecting you?

1. You need to explain why you thought i was "assuming you were town" or whatever, when my post pretty clearly said nothing of the sort

2. You need to explain the contradiction between your claim that you knew no one would hammer you, and your logic that Glork was scummy because he thought someone would hammer you when he put you at -1.

You claim to suspect me and Glork, but you refuse to actually explain the reasons you gave for those suspicions; and, as it stands now, the reason you gave for suspecting me seems to have nothing to do with anything I've said, and the reason you gave for suspecting Glork seems to contradict what you've claimed as your own thought process. Basically, I don't believe either of them is an honest suspicion, you're giving every sign of a scum who's trying to fake a suspicion on someone, and you refuse to explain farther, probably because you can not.

Frankly, Patrick/Ether, I'd agree with you about Glork being suspicious, except I don't think Glork is likely to be scum with Xtoxm, and Xtoxm is looking far more suspicious ATM.

[Simenon]

So then why do you reference past games that you've played with other people in this game?

might as well now.

[Coriolanus]

might as well now.

[charter]

I never said it was scummy, I said I didn't see the need to do it.

either you implied it or there was no reason to bring it up.
also, sorry about reading your points wrong. for what it's worth i agree with you.

What? Everything I say doesn't have to be accusations of someone being scum. It's ridiculous to say I can't point out things I think are anomalies.