Mini 701 - That's a Wrap! (Game Over)

[vollkan]

I'll address the most important thing first"

Claim time, I'd say.

I see it now. Well, I have to do it anyway, and to scum it is probably already clear.

I'm the doctor. No breadcrumbs, nothing.

Can we lynch vollkan now?

(NB: As TDC says, this confirms the masons.)

Textbook scum last-ditch counterclaim. Please lynch him now.

who do you think is the best lynch and why?

Mykonian.

Why? At the time you asked the question, it would have been Mykonian for the bogus arguments he had made against me, the whole "I could believe" thing being the straw that broke the camel's back.

Right now, though, my vote is on him for that and the fact that his "counter-claim" basically confirms him as scum to me.

i am still not getting why my "gut" feeling on spyrex through the first several pages of this thread is not substantiated by the fact that Ecto not only had a similar read on spyrex, but posted his thoughts on the subject. how is it bizarre to want to post my thoughts when someone is asking for a deadline?

there is no mention of "requesting" a deadline here. this might be a newb error on my part but i found the request peculiar. is it normal in these forums?

It's not "common", but it's also not abnormal.

spyrex's "misinterpretation" was him thinking i had stated that i had evidence against someone. my misinterpretation to which i am referring is my original posting of "spyrex seems to be dodging questions and accusations." when pressed, i clarified this standpoint as spyrex seeming "dodgy" in general. i backed this up with ecto's post, which you have dismissed and still have not explained. is it because i am using another players perspective in the matter to justify my own? i could almost buy that, but i still don't see how my statement is still completely unsubstantiated in your eyes...

You said Spyrex was dodging. I don't give a damn what Ecto said, because that's irrelevant entirely to whether you had justification. If you say something about another player, you have to be able to back it up. I've made myself clear on that. You kept asserting that he was avoiding things without any examples of what he was avoiding. That's my problem.

[mykonian]

I saw vollkan reading this. Did anyone else?

[Ectomancer]

I'm wary of Ecto for he ultimately caused the vollkan claim for "moving the game along" and for his undisclosed-mason-vote-gambit.

Luckily for me, moving the game along is exactly what has occured. As for the latter, its still day 1.

[mykonian]

There you are...

and yes, I didn't want to counterclaim you right away, I wanted to try if I could lynch you without it first. At the moment I got votes, I tried to push harder. On that moment it was clear to you already probably, but it was worth trying to do it this way.

The best situation would have been that the town would have followed, and scum didn't really know who the doctor was. Small chance, I know, but I had to take it. No last scum attempt, just clever waiting until I had to claim.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

while I go back and look for (in)consistencies on Vollkan and Mykonian and their claims.

[TDC]

"That alone" refers to the entire paragraph. It means I shouldn't need to provide any reasons more than those.

My bad, I thought it only related to the third point.
Either way, you've not answered the question: What would a vollkan lynch have told you (the other two points seem to say that they'd gain us information about other people, too)?
Other than this new development of it telling us a lot about mykonian, of course.

[Ectomancer]

"That alone" refers to the entire paragraph. It means I shouldn't need to provide any reasons more than those.

My bad, I thought it only related to the third point.
Either way, you've not answered the question: What would a vollkan lynch have told you (the other two points seem to say that they'd gain us information about other people, too)?
Other than this new development of it telling us a lot about mykonian, of course.

Not to be splitting too fine a hair with you over this, but my statement was that his alignment would be of particular interest. The information gained would be more of one that

eliminates

specific paths of possibility. At the time of my post, our (or at least my) view of this game, especially where Vollkan is concerned, lived in the world of infinite possibilities. The revelation of Vollkan's alignment would remove every path that was derived from the supposition of him being the opposite. That would then allow us to review the multitude of interactions that he has had with other players in that light.
I'm a troubleshooter. When trying to resolve what a problem is, sometimes you have to resolve what a problem

isn't.

Vollkan was our Gordian knot. He had to be cut.
While I could not foresee the end result here, I think that my instincts were proven to be correct. We have narrowed down scum to 2 people (unless Vollkan and Mykonian somehow managed to counter-claim each other to "clear" one of them, and did it without night talk, dont think so). It is my belief that the masons have been confirmed.
If the measure of an action is by its results, I think I stand vindicated in my move.

[Ectomancer]

Something to think about, Masons and a Doc and a 4th unnamed-as-yet role would DEMAND offsetting roles for scum. Also don't forget that they if they are the sole remaining scum, they can both kill and use their power on the same night (roleblock Doc and kill mason).

[don_johnson]

volkan. i see your point. while typing my last post to you it was kind of a light bulb over the head moment. though i feel players reads can justify each other i now see the gaping hole in my original argument with spyrex. i think we may have been on tangent thought patterns. i will substantiate, if only for posterity. at the moment i have a couple questions for all.

i will have to defer to more experienced players on this, but what stands out to me as "scummy" about volkan's claim is the breadcrumbing. why would a doctor breadcrumb at all? especially admitting that he would do it as scum or town(i believe volkan referenced another game where he did it as scum)? i get why an investigative role would breadcrumb(to get doc protection), but even

then

i don't think this is common or necessary on day 1. so why breadcrumb as a doc? can some of you who have more time in this forum please chime in.

oh yeah, and this:

dj has engulfed himself in a ball of fire and a few people happily pour more gasoline over his head. Lynching him is probably both inevitable and informative, but I'm not convinced he's scum.

is a gem. i may ask for permission to put this in my sig at a later date.

[mykonian]

breadcrumbing can be usefull for a doctor. It makes your claim stronger, as it proves you knew you were the doctor before you claimed. However, it also works for a fakeclaim. If you plan to fake a certain claim, you can breadcrumb before it, to make people believe you.

the problem with my breadcrumbing, is that I didn't do it. You'll have to determine my allignment on my play.

the problem with vollkan's breadcrumbing, is that it has no use. He breadcrumbed when he got too close to a lynch for his comfort, and then it can't prove he knew he was a doctor there. He just faked it then, when it was needed. Later, vollkan wants to "prove" his doctorship by providing his "breadcrumbs". Not that there is any use for it, he just wants to push his claim through there. His breadcrumbs tell nothing. His claim is not stronger then a claim without breadcrumbs.

[mrfixij]

Well, for starters,

unvote

Secondly, This is a bit of a predicament. I am CERTAIN that we don't have two docs. On one hand, vollkan has a reputation for fake claiming doc, as even he admits. On the other hand, he breadcrumbed nicely and mykonian's claim reeks of last minute indecision. Neither has looked particularly protown to me, as I've had my vote on both. However, this is also because it's not in a power role's best interests to lead town.

I'm leaning towards vollkan right now just because of his meta, but I want more discussion before I attack him.

[mykonian]

that's what I mean. Vollkan's "breadcrumbing" is said to be something positive. But why would he only know what his role was until he was put under pressure. The breadcrumbing is absolutely useless.

I wouldn't believe two docs too. That would be close to bastard modding, I think.

[Rage]

Vote Count - Day 1

With 10 alive, 6 votes is majority.

don_johnson - 2 (orangepenguin, Spyrex)
mykonian - 2 (ortolan, vollkan)

vollkan - 3 (mykonian, springlullaby)

Not Voting - 4 (mrfixij, Ectomancer, don_johnson, TDC)

Vollkan

is at L-3, three votes from a lynch.

[SpyreX]

Unvote

Well, the chances of there being two docs is so minimal I am going to accept that one of the two of you are scum.

Believe it or not, I have a pickle to contend with.

Mykonian's play has been all over the board (and I wish instead of this whole tippy-toe business he had just counterclaimed) - but he came out hard and fast against the doc claim from the beginning.

However, I am really, really bothered by the fact that:

1.) Ort made mention of wanting a CC
2.) I made mention of wanting a CC
3.) This little tidbit:

We'll have a lot fun in this game if there is no doctor...

Look at that claim yourself, is it that strong? What do I see, what you can't?

4.) Fix mentioned wanting a CC

So, instead of 1.) Listening to enough people saying they wanted a CC that all of them couldn't be town and CCing then. or 2.) CC'ing immediately because, yea, catching scum is worth any PR ffs.

Instead, he waits until HE is put on the chopping block to counterclaim.

It doesn't make sense to me as a town play.

On the other side, I haven't had huge issues with Volk's play - he has definitely "hid in the spotlight" as it were.

However, the CC issue still gets me - why CC and not try to out another power role (or at least get Fix to fill out his claim).

However, the same holds true to Volk - why lie about doc? Unless it was under the assumation that there isn't a doc at all... he knew he would get counterclaimed. If the CC was pretty much anyone else it would have had a high probability to end in his lynch. In a small game like this, that doesn't make sense - with two scum losing one on day 1 with 2 confirmed town because of it... that's a lose-lose scenario.

I have been suspect of Myk's play most of it and I REALLY dont like the way he handled this CC.

Vote: Mykonian

[mykonian]

I didn't counterclaim, for this simple reason: I have to give up a powerrole.

I can take three ways from the point vollkan claimed.

1. no counterclaim: I make a mess of it, and we are going to loose.
2. counterclaim right away: town gets a fifty-fifty between vollkan and me: I am going to be nightkilled
3. take my chance and try to lynch vollkan without outing my role. If it happens, I have the chance that scum kills a mason, and I have a chance to save a mason. If it doesn't happen, I claim before I get lynched, and we go to way 2.

Now I ask you, would you really want me to play 2? I make the best choice here by taking three, it is just taking an extra chance, thereby increasing the chance. So I try to get you to vote vollkan, and if that doesn't work, I'm going to claim.

[orangepenguin]

I don't buy the counter claim.

Vote: mykonian

. Someone else can hammer. In the event that mykonian is doctor, which is small, than we simply lynch vollkan tomorrow. It's that simple.

[ortolan]

Unvote

[mykonian]

I like it the other way around... Let scum take me. Don't use a mislynch that easily.

I know vollkan is a better player then I am, but don't make him move your vote that easily.

what should I have done different then attack vollkan hard after he claimed doc? Why would I do it as scum. Everybody got a feeling I must be scum, because the case on vollkan was weak on its best. Off course it was, I didn't need more evidence, I just didn't want to give all the evidence I had.

But everybody has a feeling that I must be scum, for that action, while it actually was the most protown way of doing things.

Lets go to a slightly wifom based argument: Why would I, if I was scum, attack a un-cc'ed doc with some murmuring about weak breadcrumbs? The only reason would be to be lynched fast.

But if I was the doc, what would I lose if I tried? NOTHING. It was again his word against mine, I only tried to do it first without directly telling scum that I am the doc.

[Rage]

Vote Count - Day 1

With 10 alive, 6 votes is majority.

mykonian - 3 (orangepenguin, Spyrex, vollkan)

vollkan - 2 (mykonian, springlullaby)

Not Voting - 5 (ortolan, mrfixij, Ectomancer, don_johnson, TDC)

mykonian

is at L-3, three votes from a lynch.

[don_johnson]

i am still waiting for others takes on the "breadcrumbing". doesn't that jeapordaize the "most powerful" town role? is it common for doctors to breadcrumb in order to back up their claim?

i can't agree with spyrex on the cc being mishandled here. it is late, but

Instead, he waits until HE is put on the chopping block to counterclaim.

i think this is expected. having no idea what other roles may be in play i am inclined to think that the doctor would remain hidden until absolutely necessary.

also, one thing i didn't realize until he said it was that english is a second language to myk. this factors into the argument that volkan is presenting himself better. not an excuse, but a factor... it certainly screws up his word curve.

[ortolan]

Also, masons are pretty much confrimed now.

Why? Just cause of the two doc claims? Doesn't that just prove it's not mountainous?

I don't see why people assume myk's claim has no credibility.

mykonian did clearly alter his behaviour as soon as vollkan claimed, consistent with him being the doctor. It was in a way that, as TDC said, has no obvious scum explanation. mykonian could probably have ridden the dj wagon to a lynch then simply nk'ed vollkan. It's a big stretch for vollkan to say:

Textbook scum last-ditch counterclaim. Please lynch him now.

The fact myk didn't immediately counter-claim is a slight point against his case but I think his explanation is reasonably plausible- and once he'd already posted without counter-claiming he'd look suspicious doing so unprompted.

On the other hand, he breadcrumbed nicely

He even admitted his breadcrumb was completely useless. What credibility is there in waiting until one gets to L-1 then fitting in a crumb of any role to refer back to later?

Assuming no bastard modding, we've got a 1/2 chance of saving a day/night cycle by lynching right today. I'm going vollkan again.

Vote: vollkan

[TDC]

i may ask for permission to put this in my sig at a later date.

You're welcome.

On breadcrumbing: If you can breadcrumb in a way that can only be seen in hindsight, then I don't see any problem with doing it, even if you're a doc.

--

mykonian:

3.) This little tidbit:

We'll have a lot fun in this game if there is no doctor...

Look at that claim yourself, is it that strong? What do I see, what you can't?

Anything to say about this?
If you're the doctor, why would you even play with the thought that there might not actually be a doctor?

[ortolan]

Can I also say that vollkan has stated he's previously used a "claim the doctor" gambit in another game. The odds in any game of him being scum are greater than him being the doctor, so I think this points to him being fakeclaiming. The fact he deliberately cited another game seems more to me to be an assurance in case someone calls him up on his previous usage of this tactic.

[ortolan]

On breadcrumbing: If you can breadcrumb in a way that can only be seen in hindsight, then I don't see any problem with doing it, even if you're a doc.

Yes but isn't useful as evidence that he is not fakeclaiming, because it came at a time when he would have had equal motivation for putting it in as a fakeclaim as he would have for putting it in as a real claim.

[TDC]

Also, masons are pretty much confrimed now.

Why? Just cause of the two doc claims? Doesn't that just prove it's not mountainous?

It's really unlikely that we have two doctors. So one of them must be scum.
You two are claimed masons and hence are either both town or both scum together.
So for you to be scum there would need to be three scum in total, which in a 10 player game is very unlikely. A 3 player mafia team I would rule out. If whoever of the two "docs" is scum turns out to be a SK that would leave a small chance of you being the mafia, but I doubt there actually is an SK in this.
Hence, you're "pretty much confirmed".