667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[charter]

I've been busy, the case against kuribo is coming.

[Sotty7]

Woulda been nice if the case came before the vote.

[Simenon]

Vote Count

Jdodge (1)- Vi
Vi (1)- Jdodge
kuribo (1)- charter
charter (1)- kuribo

DEADLINE! January 8th.

Prods going out.

[Simenon]

charter: Saturday
Sotty: Saturday
Jdodge: Monday
Vi: Friday
kuribo: Sunday

Prodding Jdodge and kuribo.

[Simenon]

Note on the deadline: because it is LYLO,

not lynching on the deadline will be an immediate loss

cause the game to go to night, and the number of votes required to lynch a player will be lowered by one (to two.) Also, it's set for 9:00, PM.

[charter]

Woulda been nice if the case came before the vote.

Well, from my point of view, if I assume that you are cop, and only one of jdodge/vi is scum, then this is the GF C9 and kuribo is GF. I've already stated why I'm making these assumptions.

Case on afatchic/kuribo.
45- afatchic agreeing with KR
66- says he doesn't like Moo asking for a claim ONLY after I've already done so.
68- afatchic says this "also aviny you seem to be trying to hard to make a case against me." I personally find that a scummy thing to say.
68- afatchic also attempts some scumhunting towards avinyl, however avinyl's response is terrible. Afatchic doesn't pursue this any further. (this is really his only attempt at scumhunting thus far, and he starts out well, but drops it immediately after and starts following me in suspecting moospiker)
86- agrees with me
101- I personally found this post very scummy, my explanation for why is in 104 and 109
123- more agreeing/buddying
124- probably his first scumhunting post. No one pays any attention to it and he drops it.
136- Piggybacks on my case against Moo using the worst reason possible, just my saying Moo was scum.
141- more agreeing/buddying
177- you know the drill
182- as MM points out, unfulfilled promises from afatchic
186- a promise to get to these unfulfilled promises, of which he still never gets done
199- Vi has a good summary of afatchic's play so far, "Most of the rest of the stuff you have posted is short and weak, and not necessarily related to this particular game at all."
213- doesn't really respond to any of the points eld brings up against him in eld's replacing in post.
290- afatchic gets back from his lurkfest and says nothing. No one notices either.
303-304- Jdodge has a good case against afatchic
319- completely ignores all cases against him.
334- afatchic is clearly ignoring us so he doesn't have to defend himself, then he requests replacement shortly after
kuribo never responds to the mass of questions for afatchic either, it all gets forgotten.
428- explains away all of afatchic's actions with "afatchic always plays scummy". Don't know how we let him get away with this.
436-439- argues a bunch about useless things
Beginning of day two, posts a bunch but says nothing.
502,504- more active lurking
510- Extremely wishy washy on his reads on everyone. There's huge gaps left open to interpretation.
550- kuribo votes me after I explain how lynching one of me/him is an autowin (and he doesn't even agree with lynching one of me/him today)
560- tries to pass off the GF counter/claiming doc as WIFOM when it isn't, and refuses to answer why the GF would be the one counter/claiming rather than goon.

TL;DR PART

- afatchic did no scumhunting
- afatchic agreed and buddied with a lot of people
- afatchic kept promising to answer questions, but still posted content posts in this game not responding to them (and posted frequently in other games at the same time)
- afatchic requested replacement when he was about to be at the height of suspicion
- kuribo never answered anyone's questions for afatchic
- kuribo never answered anyone's questions at himself
- kuribo did a great job of active lurking and flying under the radar
- kuribo is now trying to say that the GF would be the one counter/claiming doc today. This flat out doesn't make sense (I can explain again why if someone besides kuribo wants me to)

[kuribo]

- kuribo never answered anyone's questions for afatchic
- kuribo never answered anyone's questions at himself
- kuribo did a great job of active lurking and flying under the radar
- kuribo is now trying to say that the GF would be the one counter/claiming doc today. This flat out doesn't make sense (I can explain again why if someone besides kuribo wants me to)

- How can I answer questions for someone else? Anything I say would simply be me making crap up. (ie, I cannot answer for him any better than you can)

- Hurrr, yes I did answer questions about myself. Care to reiterate what you want answered?

- I have never actively lurked or flown under the radar. (unlike yourself in this game)

- So we have a disagreement on mafia theory, that doesn't make me scum.

[charter]

Ok, I think I botched the tl;dr part. Why can't you respond to the individual points against you?

[kuribo]

Ok, I think I botched the tl;dr part. Why can't you respond to the individual points against you?

Because it all boils down to accusations of active lurking:

436-439- argues a bunch about useless things
Beginning of day two, posts a bunch but says nothing.
502,504- more active lurking
510- Extremely wishy washy on his reads on everyone. There's huge gaps left open to interpretation.

Which I have

NEVER

done in any game I've ever played--- and frankly, the accusation offends me.

Or afatchic's transgressions, which I cannot answer for.

Or, disagreements on Mafia theory, which I've said before isn't one of my strong points:

550- kuribo votes me after I explain how lynching one of me/him is an autowin (and he doesn't even agree with lynching one of me/him today)
560- tries to pass off the GF counter/claiming doc as WIFOM when it isn't, and refuses to answer why the GF would be the one counter/claiming rather than goon.

But that doesn't make me scum.

So your case against me is that you perceive some of my posts as active lurking (which they are not, nor have ever been), or that afatchic was scummy (so what?), or that we disagree about lynching either you or me. (You haven't shown me why it's a good idea).

How the hell did I not address the individual points? What do you want clarified?

[charter]

Ok, I think I botched the tl;dr part. Why can't you respond to the individual points against you?

Because it all boils down to accusations of active lurking:

436-439- argues a bunch about useless things
Beginning of day two, posts a bunch but says nothing.
502,504- more active lurking
510- Extremely wishy washy on his reads on everyone. There's huge gaps left open to interpretation.

Which I have

NEVER

done in any game I've ever played--- and frankly, the accusation offends me.

I'll just let the others decide for themselves, I saw it as active lurking, didn't mean to offend you...
And your reads are very noncomittal. I could see you actually going either way on any of them, depending on who becomes more suspicious (which I perceive as a scumtell).

Or afatchic's transgressions, which I cannot answer for.

You have the same role as he did, so you're accountable for them.

Or, disagreements on Mafia theory, which I've said before isn't one of my strong points:

I was looking for your reason as to why the GF would counter/claim rather than the goon. I gave my reason why I thought it wouldn't happen, and you never answered my questions of why the GF would do it. You instead accuse me being scum and throwing the idea out there because supposedly that's what is actually happening.

550- kuribo votes me after I explain how lynching one of me/him is an autowin (and he doesn't even agree with lynching one of me/him today)
560- tries to pass off the GF counter/claiming doc as WIFOM when it isn't, and refuses to answer why the GF would be the one counter/claiming rather than goon.

But that doesn't make me scum.

So your case against me is that you perceive some of my posts as active lurking (which they are not, nor have ever been), or that afatchic was scummy (so what?), or that we disagree about lynching either you or me. (You haven't shown me why it's a good idea).

How the hell did I not address the individual points? What do you want clarified?

You contradicted yourself when you voted for me, because you don't think the lynch me/you plan is the right way to go for today. Your contradiction is scummy. Your deflection of why the GF would counter/claim is scummy.
Afatchic being scummy means a lot, you have the same role as he did so you're either accountable for all his actions, or we have to give you a clean slate. I don't think anyone is going to sweep everything afatchic said and did under the rug.

I guess I expected you to respond to cases against afatchic or something. There's really not a whole to go on if we're not taking into account afatchic. We kind of have to.

[kuribo]

Of course afatchic and I have the same alignment, but if he was acting retarded or scummy, I can't explain that. I don't expect anyone to sweep it under the table, but to expect me to be able to speak for another person would be disingenuous.

[JDodge]

Mod:

any chance of any sort of deadline extension due to my extended L/A period?

I'm pretty much back fully now - I'll work on this later.

[Simenon]

No chance.

[JDodge]

January 8 seems okay for now. As much as I don't to force a decision in a touchy situation like this, I want a decision to be made in the first place; and I'm cynical enough to believe it'll take a deadline to do it.

Please note the V/LA in my signature... I'll see you in a few days.

Why in the

fuck

would you not accept a deadline

extension

when you know that not only is someone going to be gone for a week, possibly more, but that you will also be gone?

I still don't understand the assumption that there IS a godfather.

It could just as easily be C9, Two of Four A7, or Bird C9.

Probability mostly. It actually

couldn't

just as easily be C9 or Two of Four A7, although either one is still possible.

It IS possible that the obv-doc-hunting night-kill was part of a ruse for JDodge to propose Godfather C9 today; hence why I was hesitant to call Godfather C9 certain. Even so, it's good to keep in mind.

WIFOM.

Allow me to save us some time - you'll go on some tangent about how it's not really WIFOM and WIFOM is a term that's overused by people who don't know what it means when really that is the

biggest fucking cop-out in the book

. You

KNOW

that's pure, unadulterated bullshit you're attempting to shovel down our collective gullets, otherwise you wouldn't have defused it with your little "IT'S GOOD TO KEEP IN MIND" line.

This means that by you claiming doc you put yourself in at least 3 times as much danger as you would need to normally.

Wait, hold the phone. Let me trace this conversation.
--kuribo's out-the-gate hate on you D1 was bussing.
-Why do you think this? I was in no danger at the time he replaced in.
--You claimed Doctor today to place yourself in danger.
I've already been in one Time Abuse Mafia, and I'm pretty sure I only signed up for one. No, I didn't claim Doctor D1, nor did KrisReizer IIRC.

Let's retrace your points you claim I'm trying to make here.

1. No. I'm talking about D2. kuribo's overt hostility is understandable D1, but I'd think that any well-reasoned person would at least show some skepticism throughout D2. I find it somewhat odd that he did in such a way go right after you on D2. Keep in mind that I don't

know

kuribo is scum in the same way that I know you're scum - any point against him will be tangential by nature and thus open to interpretation.

2. See above.

3. What the fuck? How could you possibly draw this conclusion from that line of logic?

Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

"Were I your scumpartner" WIFOM aside, I know of one scum power that would try it - a player who thinks he's clean countering someone he thinks can be bullied out of the game. If you get me lynched today, it doesn't matter if you're the Godfather or anything else; you win. Why would a Godfather be the one counterclaiming? Perhaps because he has a better reputation than his Goon partner, or more experience/confidence.
Moreover, if the Godfather were so concerned about getting lynched today, then perhaps in addition to counterclaiming he would push the lynch pressure off himself. 'Sound familiar? This would in turn allow him to use investigation immunity such that if he were investigated N2, he would be able to indict the other player immediately. All of the benefits of claiming Doc plus all of the benefits of being a Godfather, even with an authentic Doctor in the game!

Fails the essential point of the jig is pretty much up when they lynch either himself or the real doc.

Do you seriously think anyone would find either of us to be a pushover?

That being said I don't think there's much further we can get on this point. I won't belabour it.

So you can see eldarad as "trying to play well, but failing". Yet it still seems that you only see charter in the black-and-white categories of "good play = town, bad play = scum".

More like "not trying to play well, and failing".

I would like to again point out that charter not even trying is not necessarily scummy. Especially when you point out that not even trying is contrary to the scum motive of attempting to get townies lynched, AND contrary to the secondary scum motive of attempting to blend in. Your entire line of logic against charter blatantly ignores the law of common sense in favour of the law of "he's not doing anything, must be scum".

Towns self-destruct more often than not. Being on the periphery, or active lurking, is just fine if the Town's willing to lynch itself to LyLo.

The current environmental meta dictates that active lurking is extremely scrutinized and as is such now fails the secondary scum motivation. It never fulfilled the primary scum motivation.

I would argue that, in this current age of mafia wherein you have numerous people who have a more lurking playstyle, that lurking has ceased to become a meaningful tell and that lynch all lurkers is used solely as a tool to attempt to condition players into the standards of play that those who use it wish to enforce.

I don't have such a big deal with lurking as a playstyle as long as what you say when you DO show up is convincing. Active lurking is by definition failing at this, and is either a sign of staying in the background (see above) or being a playstyle miller. I've lost too many games to lurker-scum to agree with you.

Because you fail to recognize the importance of meta in the general context of a mafia game. Allow me to go off-the-subject a bit and say that this is not really at the moment a game-related gripe; this is definitely a theory subject that I want to hit on a bit. Active lurking is by definition something that should be noticed, picked up on, placed in context, compared against similar contexts, and scrutinized thusly as with everything else in the game as a whole. Nine times out of ten, people will fail at least one of steps two through four in that line. Most often three and four.

Why wouldn't I defend someone who refuses to defend themselves? Why should we only hold the bad against someone while refusing to look at the other side of the coin? Why is it scummy for me to attempt to prevent what I feel to be unfounded suspicion being laid upon someone?

Good question. I would reserve that for unfounded suspicion, and only for people who cannot defend themselves (V/LA or getting replaced). The first part we can debate for a while longer, but the second part is where charter fails.

One of the primary motivations of a townsperson is the preservation of the town, and a secondary motivation is the full scrutinization of every member of the town. I don't really think you can fulfill said secondary motivation if you're not allowing a proper defense of actions to be laid down as that means that you are looking solely at the negative whilst ignoring the redeeming and/or negating qualities.

That's just because you don't have enough experience with the idiots who play to become jaded enough to realize that people are terminally retarded and really

don't

know what they're doing and the consequences thereof.

Which should be taken into account when looking at them. I'll defend people that I feel are newbs/n00bs when I believe I can understand why they're doing what they're doing if it's wrong. However, the suspicion should still surface that the person being defended is scum when it piles up, or if things stop becoming fully explicable by the n00b card.

And this differs from my defense of charter how exactly?

I'll admit that the naivety defense does make your pushing of charter much more believable, but I'm finding it hard to accept that defense all things considered.

I'm feeling masochistic today. Why is it hard to accept?

Because as you demonstrated in above quote you do have a great understanding of how the whole point/counter-point part of mafia works.

The flip side to this approach to scumhunting is that it essentially lets you direct the scumhunting efforts with seeming-little research effort of your own. That's a great place for scum to be. *continues taking notes*

No, not really; yes, it removes

accountability

, but on the flipside it adds the illusion of complete uselessness. And in the current environmental meta, deadwood tends to be cut adrift rather quickly.

I'll be back next year with more. This is a rather large FREAKING WALL O TEXT to slog through, you see.

[Vi]

Why in the

fuck

would you not accept a deadline

extension

when you know that not only is someone going to be gone for a week, possibly more, but that you will also be gone?

*You promised you would be back well before the deadline
*I knew I would be back well before the deadline
*I'm sick of the

nothing

going on in this game, and I know others are (or should be) too.

-------

WIFOM.

Allow me to save us some time - you'll go on some tangent about how it's not really WIFOM and WIFOM is a term that's overused by people who don't know what it means when really that is the

biggest fucking cop-out in the book

. You

KNOW

that's pure, unadulterated bullshit you're attempting to shovel down our collective gullets, otherwise you wouldn't have defused it with your little "IT'S GOOD TO KEEP IN MIND" line.

Are you done with the CAPS and

italics

? They make your attempt to stuff words into my mouth more convincing, or they would if I didn't have other plans.
First, you're saying that I'm going to try to talk out of both sides of my mouth - saying that it's not really WIFOM, but that I defused it with that tag (implying that I'm conceding that it is). Give me a little credit here.
Second, permit me to astonish you - what I suggested IS WIFOM. It's not possible to know either way based on the given information, though it isn't the most likely scenario. Thus, it's good to keep in mind but it's not something to concentrate on. (Which if you look at what I said in context would be the obvious conclusion.)

-------

1. No. I'm talking about D2. kuribo's overt hostility is understandable D1, but I'd think that any well-reasoned person would at least show some skepticism throughout D2. I find it somewhat odd that he did in such a way go right after you on D2.

Um... what? Rereading, I don't see him "going right after me", except to some relatively passive degree. I do see him turning to skepticism after the Doc claim.

3. What the fuck? How could you possibly draw this conclusion from that line of logic?

I didn't draw that conclusion. You did.

Not distancing. Bussing. Scumpartner seeing his partner is going down and trying to ship him out of there as soon as possible.

Um... what? I was in no danger at the time. This makes zero sense.

You had already claimed doctor, had you not? Again, I think it

incredibly

safe to assume that this is the Godfather C9 setup, thus meaning that you would (as a scumpair) have knowledge of the setup containing a doctor. This means that by you

claiming

doc you put yourself in at least 3 times as much danger as you would need to normally. Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

So let me try this again.
You) kuribo is apparently bussing you

D1

D2.
Me) Why? I (still) was not in any particular danger.
You) You claimed Doctor to make yourself more of a target. If I hadn't beaten you to it, I bet kuribo would have counterclaimed. To bus you.
Or something like that. Whatever the logic string is here, I can't find it.
Not to mention that assuming that the scumpair is Vi-kuribo, there'd be no reason for us to bus each other. Bussing as planned strategy is overrated.

-----

Fails the essential point of the jig is pretty much up when they lynch either himself or the real doc.

Not really, no.
If the real Doc is lynched, the game's over. If the GF is lynched, yes, the jig is up. I'm hypothesizing that that's why you're pushing the pressure to the other players.

Do you seriously think anyone would find either of us to be a pushover?

Not you, no.

-----

The current environmental meta dictates that active lurking is extremely scrutinized and as is such now fails the secondary scum motivation. It never fulfilled the primary scum motivation.

So since you actually care about the meta trends, you wouldn't do it. (in theory)
I'm having a hard time applying this to anyone else, since I know I haven't seen it happen outside the times I initiate said scrutiny.

Because you fail to recognize the importance of meta in the general context of a mafia game. Allow me to go off-the-subject a bit and say that this is not really at the moment a game-related gripe; this is definitely a theory subject that I want to hit on a bit. Active lurking is by definition something that should be noticed, picked up on, placed in context, compared against similar contexts, and scrutinized thusly as with everything else in the game as a whole. Nine times out of ten, people will fail at least one of steps two through four in that line. Most often three and four.

This argument indeed has become an abstraction, since I had to check to see how this related to the game at all.
In any event, this fails because it doesn't take k7-scum or SSK-scum into account, people you can't get a read on either way. Never mind people who have no past worth referencing.
And then we have your behavior D1, where you disappeared for a long time and expected us to go lynch someone or something. "Meta you"? I have, and the result is that I don't buy it as a defense in that case. I can only take willing suspension of disbelief so far, and I'm known for being generous in that area.

-----

One of the primary motivations of a townsperson is the preservation of the town, and a secondary motivation is the full scrutinization of every member of the town. I don't really think you can fulfill said secondary motivation if you're not allowing a proper defense of actions to be laid down as that means that you are looking solely at the negative whilst ignoring the redeeming and/or negating qualities.

I sense a line of garbage here.
If someone can't defend themselves, okay fine. If someone

refuses

to defend themselves, that's their problem. Besides, there's still the option of presenting a better case on someone else.

And this differs from my defense of charter how exactly?

However, the suspicion should still surface that the person being defended is scum when it piles up, or if things stop becoming fully explicable by the n00b card.

------

No, not really; yes, it removes accountability, but on the flipside it adds the illusion of complete uselessness. And in the current environmental meta, deadwood tends to be cut adrift rather quickly.

But you, unlike many others, have a meta to hide behind. So for you it's most certainly where you want to be.

[JDodge]

WIFOM.

Allow me to save us some time - you'll go on some tangent about how it's not really WIFOM and WIFOM is a term that's overused by people who don't know what it means when really that is the

biggest fucking cop-out in the book

. You

KNOW

that's pure, unadulterated bullshit you're attempting to shovel down our collective gullets, otherwise you wouldn't have defused it with your little "IT'S GOOD TO KEEP IN MIND" line.

Are you done with the CAPS and

italics

? They make your attempt to stuff words into my mouth more convincing, or they would if I didn't have other plans.
First, you're saying that I'm going to try to talk out of both sides of my mouth - saying that it's not really WIFOM, but that I defused it with that tag (implying that I'm conceding that it is). Give me a little credit here.
Second, permit me to astonish you - what I suggested IS WIFOM. It's not possible to know either way based on the given information, though it isn't the most likely scenario. Thus, it's good to keep in mind but it's not something to concentrate on. (Which if you look at what I said in context would be the obvious conclusion.)

1. Tough, deal with it. I'm not trying to stuff words into your mouth. You're projecting your own skewed ideas onto me to the point that you could just simply point your head at a screen and play movies in a theatre.

No. I'm not saying that you're going to try to talk both sides. I'm saying that you know damn well it's WIFOM but you'll use it anyways.

Regardless of whether you admit it is WIFOM, you're presenting it as the most obvious conclusion when in reality it is only the obvious conclusion if you so decide to take the route of say, JD is evil, Vi is ultimate good. Which in general is a bad stance to take no matter what side you're on.

1. No. I'm talking about D2. kuribo's overt hostility is understandable D1, but I'd think that any well-reasoned person would at least show some skepticism throughout D2. I find it somewhat odd that he did in such a way go right after you on D2.

Um... what? Rereading, I don't see him "going right after me", except to some relatively passive degree. I do see him turning to skepticism after the Doc claim.

A WTF period after your claim is reasonable with the whole thing.

3. What the fuck? How could you possibly draw this conclusion from that line of logic?

I didn't draw that conclusion. You did.

No. I didn't. Again, projection, head, screen, movies, theatre. I said that your claim

put you in more danger

. I never once said that your claim was intended to put you in more danger. I think it was more likely than not a misinformed gambit designed to flush the real doc out of hiding, which again fits with my doc-hunting in GF C9 theory. Every scum action in this game has been intended to take down the doc to the very end.

Not distancing. Bussing. Scumpartner seeing his partner is going down and trying to ship him out of there as soon as possible.

Um... what? I was in no danger at the time. This makes zero sense.

You had already claimed doctor, had you not? Again, I think it

incredibly

safe to assume that this is the Godfather C9 setup, thus meaning that you would (as a scumpair) have knowledge of the setup containing a doctor. This means that by you

claiming

doc you put yourself in at least 3 times as much danger as you would need to normally. Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

So let me try this again.
You) kuribo is apparently bussing you

D1

D2.
Me) Why? I (still) was not in any particular danger.
You) You claimed Doctor to make yourself more of a target. If I hadn't beaten you to it, I bet kuribo would have counterclaimed. To bus you.
Or something like that. Whatever the logic string is here, I can't find it.
Not to mention that assuming that the scumpair is Vi-kuribo, there'd be no reason for us to bus each other. Bussing as planned strategy is overrated.

What the everloving fuck? Do you even believe the shit that's coming out of your mouth now? You even

admit

that you can't find the string of logic, which you seem to take as a cue to fill in the blanks yourself. So allow me to do my favorite thing in the whole game of mafia and rip a half-assed, bullshit argument made out of nothing to little teeny tiny bits showing exactly where you're being a complete pillock.

1. Kuribo started bussing you midway through D1, when he thought you were a relatively safe target considering the general lack of attention paid to you. This has the effects of distancing as well as making it look like at least someone is paying attention to you.

2. You were not in particular danger on D1 when he started. I admit that I failed to mention this in my original argument. You became in danger when you claimed doc.

3. You claimed doc to flush out the real doc. Without lynching the real doc, you stand a hefty chance of losing. I think your resistance to the lynch one of kuribo-charter play is based on this.

I would like to point out the following sentence repeatedly: "Not to mention that assuming that the scumpair is Vi-kuribo, there'd be no reason for us to bus each other."

More WIFOM dressed up as fact. Not even a qualifier this time.

Of course there is a fucking reason for you to bus each other if you're scumpartners.

You're right. Planned bussing does reek. I'm saying that kuribo's bussing was opportunistic and based on your actions, not some moustache-twirling evil plot to blow up freaking China or something.

Fails the essential point of the jig is pretty much up when they lynch either himself or the real doc.

Not really, no.
If the real Doc is lynched, the game's over. If the GF is lynched, yes, the jig is up. I'm hypothesizing that that's why you're pushing the pressure to the other players.

I'm pushing the pressure to the other players because I feel that:

A) We're more likely to agree on one of them over one of us today, because the game IS over today if we don't lynch (thanks again for denying us the deadline extension, Mr. Dickwad. And no, I don't mean Sim (<3))

B) I feel there is as clear a parallel between kuribo/charter as there is between Vi/myself. Which in turn makes A possible.

C) I feel that it is more fruitful to lynch between one of them because I don't believe that any GF in their right mind with a cop in the setup would fakeclaim a power-role that they know is in the setup first thing D2. Hence if I am correct and this is indeed GF C9, one of kuribo/charter must be the GF. By lynching one of them, we make it insta-win for town or insta-loss town. By lynching one of us, we make it half-way win for town or insta-loss town. I'm simply playing logic and the odds at the moment.

Do you seriously think anyone would find either of us to be a pushover?

Not you, no.

Do you believe yourself to be a pushover? Do you believe you project the facade of being a pushover?

The current environmental meta dictates that active lurking is extremely scrutinized and as is such now fails the secondary scum motivation. It never fulfilled the primary scum motivation.

So since you actually care about the meta trends, you wouldn't do it. (in theory)
I'm having a hard time applying this to anyone else, since I know I haven't seen it happen outside the times I initiate said scrutiny.

The vast majority of scrutiny happens in people's minds, not on the pages of a game - this is because people don't want to be

that guy

. The one who brings up ACTIVE LURKING while everyone's having fun thus dragging them down into a pit of despair. The one who feels the need to blab endlessly about every single freaking thought that crosses into their mind. I don't think we can get much further on this point. I also think it's crossed into theory-land where it should be allowed to roam free over the bright green pastures of the Strawmen next to the quick-flowing river of wine.

Back on topic, it's bringing up the topic of active lurking that sets the gears in the backs of people's minds into motion and creates the spark that sets the pastures ablaze and starts the river flowing with blood. Also, starry skies.

EXCISING ABSTRACTION

One of the primary motivations of a townsperson is the preservation of the town, and a secondary motivation is the full scrutinization of every member of the town. I don't really think you can fulfill said secondary motivation if you're not allowing a proper defense of actions to be laid down as that means that you are looking solely at the negative whilst ignoring the redeeming and/or negating qualities.

I sense a line of garbage here.
If someone can't defend themselves, okay fine. If someone

refuses

to defend themselves, that's their problem. Besides, there's still the option of presenting a better case on someone else.

The best offense is a good defense. Oftentimes you can expose flaws in an argument against a person who looks otherwise solid because they're attacking someone who isn't defending themselves properly. This seems to be falling into difference of opinion on how to play the game-land as opposed to actually in the game-land. NEXT TOPIC

And this differs from my defense of charter how exactly?

However, the suspicion should still surface that the person being defended is scum when it piles up, or if things stop becoming fully explicable by the n00b card.

Suspicion rising above counterpoints =/= ignoring counterpoints in favour of suspicion.

No, not really; yes, it removes accountability, but on the flipside it adds the illusion of complete uselessness. And in the current environmental meta, deadwood tends to be cut adrift rather quickly.

But you, unlike many others, have a meta to hide behind. So for you it's most certainly where you want to be.

People don't hide behind their metas. They are their metas. The fact that you do not grasp this is why you cannot grasp my theories.

[Vi]

1. Tough, deal with it. I'm not trying to stuff words into your mouth. You're projecting your own skewed ideas onto me to the point that you could just simply point your head at a screen and play movies in a theatre.

No. I'm not saying that you're going to try to talk both sides. I'm saying that you know damn well it's WIFOM but you'll use it anyways.

It's not my fault if you can't communicate effectively. As far as knowing that it's WIFOM and using it anyway, again, look at the context.

Regardless of whether you admit it is WIFOM, you're presenting it as the most obvious conclusion when in reality it is only the obvious conclusion if you so decide to take the route of say, JD is evil, Vi is ultimate good. Which in general is a bad stance to take no matter what side you're on.

I'm sorry? I am now? Based on what we know, Godfather C9 is most likely, with ideas like other setups and scum misdirection being less likely but nonetheless possible. How you got that I was saying that scum misdirection via NK was most likely...? Projection, head, screen, movies, theatre.

As far as JDodge-Evil and Vi-Holy goes, I don't see how you can substantiate that it's a bad view of the situation. There are no possible setups with two Docs. Two Docs have claimed. At least one is lying. I know I am a Doctor, ergo you are 100%

not

. Townies don't counterclaim power roles they don't have. You are Mafia. Town wins by lynching Mafia; Mafia win by misdirecting Town. This is all extremely basic stuff here. To say that my position is a bad stance presumes that either you are not scum (which I know is not the case) or that I am not the role I claim to be (which I know is not the case).

Many words, obvious point. Blah.

-----

A WTF period after your claim is reasonable with the whole thing.

ITT, JDodge doesn't read the thread. kuribo didn't question the Doc claim. kuribo questioned his scum read on me.

-----

What the everloving fuck? Do you even believe the shit that's coming out of your mouth now? You even

admit

that you can't find the string of logic, which you seem to take as a cue to fill in the blanks yourself.

Well you thought it was a viable strategy for getting people lynched D1...

3. You claimed doc to flush out the real doc. Without lynching the real doc, you stand a hefty chance of losing. I think your resistance to the lynch one of kuribo-charter play is based on this.

The problem here is as obvious as it gets in light of what I've been saying. The game ends if another Townie gets lynched.

It doesn't matter

if it's the Doctor, the Cop, a Townie, or whoever.

More WIFOM dressed up as fact. Not even a qualifier this time.

Of course there is a fucking reason for you to bus each other if you're scumpartners.

D1? Sure. D2? Not at all.

I'm saying that kuribo's bussing was opportunistic and based on your actions, not some moustache-twirling evil plot to blow up freaking China or something.

Well he's not doing a good job of it now, is he?

-----

A) We're more likely to agree on one of them over one of us today, because the game IS over today if we don't lynch (thanks again for denying us the deadline extension, Mr. Dickwad. And no, I don't mean Sim (<3))

I'm sure my voice had everything to do with Simenon's decision. Nonetheless, I'll take thanks when I can get it.
In any event, we have confirmable scum between us (not really confirmable Town, but confirmable scum). I think it would be more prudent to get THEM to agree which of US to lynch.

C) I feel that it is more fruitful to lynch between one of them because I don't believe that any GF in their right mind with a cop in the setup would fakeclaim a power-role that they know is in the setup first thing D2. Hence if I am correct and this is indeed GF C9, one of kuribo/charter must be the GF. By lynching one of them, we make it insta-win for town or insta-loss town. By lynching one of us, we make it half-way win for town or insta-loss town. I'm simply playing logic and the odds at the moment.

It's a stupid move to claim first thing as GF, sure. Counterclaiming, however, stands to be different precisely because it's not planned and you can't daytalk.

-----

*Do you believe yourself to be a pushover?
*Do you believe you project the facade of being a pushover?

*More than I should be.
*...Perhaps...

-----

Re: scrutiny and whatever - I think that's an obvious mischaracterization, and I AM

that guy

; but why I'd ever think I could convince you otherwise, Iunno.

-----

People don't hide behind their metas. They are their metas. The fact that you do not grasp this is why you cannot grasp my theories.

Judging people on meta alone makes alignment arbitrary. I'm not going to excuse your "activity" D1 based on how you always play. It's not a condemnation of your meta, it's what you did with it.

[Vi]

It just occurred to me that I'm not arguing to convince JDodge of anything; there's no need to.

You three other players should show up sometime.

[charter]

I'm here, I'm waiting for sotty or anyone really to say something about the lynch me/kuribo plan. That's the best way to go today.

[kuribo]

You three other players should show up sometime.

I've been here for quite awhile, having just posted 2 days ago.

[Vi]

I meant paying attention to the two old hens with the Doc hats.

I'll give charter vs. kuribo a look later today.

[kuribo]

I meant paying attention to the two old hens with the Doc hats.

I'll give charter vs. kuribo a look later today.

I *AM* paying attention, just as one would hope everyone else was paying attention while charter and I discussed the exact same thing over and over and over at length.

[Simenon]

Prodding Sotty7

[Sotty7]

Sorry guys been sick these last few days. I was just reading the game as I revived my prod.

If we lynch kuribo, and he is godfather, then it's game over. Right there.
If we lynch jdodge/VI sucessfully today, then I assume you investigate me tonight and we then have to decide between myself/kuribo tomorrow.

Jdodge had it right before. For jdodge/Vi today might be an easy choice, but for you, me, and kuribo (if he isn't the GF) then we have to choose right today and tomorrow. Basically, we have to choose between charter/kuribo at some point, so there's no sense in trying to guess jdodge/vi as well.

I will go ahead and advocate my plan as well. If there's a quickhammer and we lose, I'm sorry, but I don't think that's going to be the case.

vote kuribo

Okay...I don't know how many times I can say it without losing my mind...

You are suggesting we lynch THE ONE player I have an innocent on.
You are suggesting that we lynch outside JDodge and Vi where we KNOW one of them is lying and therefore scum.

Can you please explain why either of these ideas are good ones?

It lives on the assumption that we are in Godfather C9.
Even if that assumption is correct and someone is the Godfather, don't you think it is beneficial to the town to get in as many investigations as possible? The fact is that we have a 50/50 between Vi and JDodge, there IS scum in there somewhere, the whole town can see that.

You are trying to claim that it isn't logical for the Godfather to counter claim doc. To be honest it could be played either way. The Godfather could be counter claiming to set just this situation up! Then if we guess right between you and kuribo MY INVESTAGTIONS BECOME USLESS.

So in light of this possibility... Can you really sit there and tell me that we should lynch the one guy I have an innocent on when the Godfather isn't confirmed? Can you really sit there and tell me that a ballsy GF wouldn't try and make this play? However unlikely, isn't it

still

possible?

Personally, I think charter reveals more about his intent than he lets on.

Perhaps his partner IS a Godfather, and he's hoping that even if he fails to get my lynch today, he's set up the seeds of doubt for tomorrow. So, if he's the lynch for today, then tonight the cop either investigates his partner or the real doc. Either way getting an innocent, and putting his buddy in a good position for the win.

This is my worry at this point.

Why would the GF counter claim?

So they can purpose this plan of lynching outside the two claimed docs. So if we do that as a town and somehow guess right, then I will get another investigation. The GF is fine with this because they are immune to my investigations! It's the perfect ploy.

And charter you haven't said anywhere why we should lynch kuribo just that you think he is the GF. Give me some reasons WHY you think this.

Well, there's really no way to prove there is a GF, all I can do is use a bunch of WIFOM for you to think about and let you decide, pretty much the same as I did (basically look real hard at day two).

Exactly!! There is no way to prove there is a GF at this point. So why lynch my one innocent?! Makes no sense....

TL;DR PART

- afatchic did no scumhunting
- afatchic agreed and buddied with a lot of people
- afatchic kept promising to answer questions, but still posted content posts in this game not responding to them (and posted frequently in other games at the same time)
- afatchic requested replacement when he was about to be at the height of suspicion
- kuribo never answered anyone's questions for afatchic
- kuribo never answered anyone's questions at himself
- kuribo did a great job of active lurking and flying under the radar
- kuribo is now trying to say that the GF would be the one counter/claiming doc today. This flat out doesn't make sense (I can explain again why if someone besides kuribo wants me to)

To be fair, kuribo posts a lot. Some of his posts have little content, but he is always around giving his opinion so saying he was actively lurking is a big stretch I think. For example you list post 502 and 504 as active lurking while seemingly ignoring that he had content filled posts right before then, post 497 (talking about how unlikely Vi and JDodge are the scum team together) and post 494 (talking about the cop claims) I really don't like that.

You harp on again about how the GF would never counter claim and that's just a false hood. The fact is, the GF could really play it either way at this point, if there even is a GF! It makes sense for them to propose this situation if they are one of the claimed docs because they know then I become useless to the town. While you're right... The by the books play is for the goon to counter, but this is mafia, people aren't always going to play by the book.

You contradicted yourself when you voted for me, because you don't think the lynch me/you plan is the right way to go for today. Your contradiction is scummy. Your deflection of why the GF would counter/claim is scummy.
Afatchic being scummy means a lot, you have the same role as he did so you're either accountable for all his actions, or we have to give you a clean slate. I don't think anyone is going to sweep everything afatchic said and did under the rug.

I guess I expected you to respond to cases against afatchic or something. There's really not a whole to go on if we're not taking into account afatchic. We kind of have to.

I agree that kuribo voting for you looks bad. I can see why he did it though. Both Vi and myself have been saying that the GF could very well counter claim (or claim) in this situation. Does this make us scummy too?

I won't lie. The exchange between JDodge and Vi is making my head hurt. I think I am going to have to look back once more before I commit either way on that right now. I will say again though, my vote will be going to either JDodge or Vi.

Note on the deadline: because it is LYLO,

not lynching on the deadline will be an immediate loss

cause the game to go to night, and the number of votes required to lynch a player will be lowered by one (to two.) Also, it's set for 9:00, PM.

What time zone?

[Simenon]

EST