Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[Coriolanus]

Why use anything? Well, it beats using nothing.

i think that there are other tactics that can be used outside of scumtells. i read an article on MTGS by a player named azrael that can explain my philosophy pretty well, but since this conversation is hopelessly vague and isn't going anywhere i don't think it would be of much use.

[dahill1]

posting this in all games i'm in:

Limited Access due to winter vacation until probably about Jan. 5th

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

dahill1: 4 (Pathetric, charter, Coriolanus, Tuberkulos)
Xtoxm: 3 (Incognito, Yosarian2, dahill1)
Coriolanus: 2 (Glork, Assmaster)
Glork: 1 (Xtoxm)
Erratus Apathos: 1 (Rally Vincent)
Rally Vincent: 1 (Erratus Apathos)

Not Voting: 0

Mod:

Can we get a deadline extension since it's christmas?

The deadlines in this game were public knowledge from the point it started taking signups. There will be no deadline extensions for any reason.

[Glork]

which makes no sense, why can't Corio have been doing both those things?

That's exactly the point I'm trying to MAKE, Patrick. Corio seems to want to "get more out of the day," butj for the time he's spent in this thread, his actual, real-time scumhunting has been minimal, IMO.

[Glork]

Also, Ether, don't use Gold anymore. It is extremely difficult to read in mafsepia, and nigh-impossible in mafTigers.

[Xtoxm]

It's fine in the normal one.

When is deadline?

[Glork]

I'd also like to know what's scummy about this.

It feels like Corio was going too far continuing his whole "dahill sheeping" thing (which, by the way, I don't find particularly abnormal for dahill), but fell upon "no, joke" when dahill pointed out the timestamps. It seemed insincere to me.

christmas drama is flaring up, so let me just respond to one thing:

Coriolanus got quite worked up in the alt-or-not discussion, but it's nothing that interests me. I don't understand his logic about letting Xtoxm live through the day if he is scum.
"Officer, we have reports on a violent man at Ceasars Palace."
"Okay, but let's go the Mirage instead."
"But Officer..."
"No butts! Let's go to the Mirage. Maybe there is a criminal there too?"
Makes no sense to me at all.

i have major issues with this analogy, in that the town doesn't use the same methods a police force would. let me try to use it anyway:
"Officer, we have reports on a violent man at Ceasars Palace."
"Okay, but let's also go the Mirage. There seems evidence that there is violent activity over there that may be connected."
"But Officer... Can't we put that criminal off until tomorrow? This one's easier."
"Awww shucks, alright. Caesers it is!"

That's still a terrible idea. You're going to let one criminal run amok for a while longer because there MIGHT be another criminal elsewhere?

[OhGodMyLife]

When is deadline?

December 30th

[dahill1]

Dahill1's defense about quoting Glork has flaws. He claims at first that it is the location of the forum that depends on wethever info about other players is useful. Which in itself doesn't make any sense to me. An opinion or argument has as much value in a mafia game as it does in a mafia discussion elsewhere, in my opinion.

i think you're kind of stretching it. i never said the location of the forum corresponds to the value of the info. i just said i personally don't like using MD and GD in mafia games, as i tend to think of them as separate environments. plus, my position has stayed the same in both MD and this game. i never said i agreed with glork's viewpoint.

Hypothetical Situation 2

is exactly what we have here. But I don't understand the difference if

Hypothetical Situation 2

had occured in an actual mafia game. In other words, if Dahill1 had made the exact same quote in an actual mafia game dose that automatically make him agree with the argument/statement/post he quotes?

yes that situation was supposed to reflect the current one. but you misread it i think. i said "I post someone's opinion on "YYY" which

is contrary

to another player's in mafia discussion". it's simple. i was just presenting an opposing viewpoint which doesn't mean i agreed with it necessarily.

First it's the location of one's post that matters if it's of value or not. Then it's also the amount of times you make that post. His arguments aren't solid.

again, no it's not exactly the location. it's whether you are consistent or not. and i only used # of times as an example, it was irrelevant to the main argument. you're the one that is continually bringing that up

vote: Dahill1

so you're voting me for a faulty argument over posting in games/MD?

[Yosarian2]

Pathetric: Want to explain why you think I'm scummy? You've said so like 5 times, but the only thing you've actually commented on about my play was my vote for Xtoxm, and even there you all you said was that you thought I was "streaching it" (which I really doubt; Xtoxm really just looks like a scum flailing around here to me) or that you didn't agree with me that scum want to claim vanillia townie (which, again, I don't get; isn't it obvious why scum "should" want to claim vanillia?)

And everyone's jumping all over me for my general stratagy comments; I don't get that, either. If someone gets pressured to a claim, and they claim vanillia, you generally want lynch them unless you've got a really good reason not to do so, and no one has given me any good reason to think Xtoxm is pro-town (certanly Xtoxm hasn't.) You don't want to then, after the vanillia claim, pull the bandwagon apart and pressure someone else to a claim; not unless you're scum who's trying to find the power roles, anyway. You could argue that Xtoxm wasn't really "pressured to a claim", but then again in his own words his only justification for a vanillia claim were that he was at lynch -2.

[Coriolanus]

i'm glad glork has deemed me unworthy of responding to the things i actually said. or maybe he's so busy typing his own posts he forgot to read mine.

I'd also like to know what's scummy about this.

It feels like Corio was going too far continuing his whole "dahill sheeping" thing (which, by the way, I don't find particularly abnormal for dahill), but fell upon "no, joke" when dahill pointed out the timestamps. It seemed insincere to me.

that's stupid. it should be pretty clear it was a joke.

That's still a terrible idea. You're going to let one criminal run amok for a while longer because there MIGHT be another criminal elsewhere?

your use of this analogy is scummy.

glork, THERE IS ANOTHER CRIMINAL. no "might" bullshit. there is. we know this, because the game hinges on there BEING another criminal (i can make capitals things too!). so i figure we might as well try to spend the day wisely, instead of lazily bumbling through what i consider to be a poorly conceived lynch.

and as i said before, the analogy doesn't even represent my views on xtoxm.

[Coriolanus]

i'm on tigers and ether's post was fine.

[Coriolanus]

and as i said, xtoxm would convince me as a lynch if i actually thought he was legitimately scum. but, as i said, i don't.

[Glork]

which makes no sense, why can't Corio have been doing both those things?

That's exactly the point I'm trying to MAKE, Patrick. Corio seems to want to "get more out of the day," butj for the time he's spent in this thread, his actual, real-time scumhunting has been minimal, IMO.

I want to elaborate more on this, because apparently I didn't make myself clear enough, and because the more I think about it, the more it bothers me that both Ether and Patrick are failing to see what is wrong with Corio here.


We'll start here:

Corio, would you care to respond to my FoS?

don't give a shit, sorry. i meant what i said. if you think that's worth voting me for, just fucking do it, but i'm in the business of scumhunting not defending myself over one comment.

Here, Corio passes on making discussion, because he is not "in the buisness of... defending himself." He would rather "hunt scum."

His very next post:

the new xtoxm wagon is made up of stupid.

Well, that's not exactly scumhunting...

His next post:

Why is that?

why is xtoxm not a good lynch?

i'm starting to believe this is a post restriction

because i think his reactions, while being very bad, seem obviously townie to me, and as i said before there is absolutely no reason to rehash this wagon unless you genuinely want xtoxm dead today. xtoxm is a dead end unless you want the day to end now.

Okay, so he's indicating that he wants the day to continue. Tell me, Patrick, Ether... has he offered a SINGLE word that would contribute to his "business of scumhunting" at this point? No.

Also, what "new" xtoxm wagon?

this newest one, that came after the last.

Another post, another missed opportunity to actively hunt for scum.

it was a joke.

More of the same...

how could that possibly be a good reason to lynch him? you lynch someone for being anti-town because they would do more damage to the town than allowing them to live. xtoxm can't possibly do anything to further the damage done by the actions you cite, so there has to be a reason separate from the "anti-town" argument.

Again, he makes a post to defend Xtoxm. But he couldn't be arsed to defend

himself

earlier, and he's still not offering up anything to FIND AND CATCH SCUM.

His next post:

Town should never claim vanillia, at all, but scum tend to want to claim vanillia, so it's a scum tell.

unless you can prove that the scum are more likely to claim vanilla than town are, this is basically just pulled out of your ass.
also, you're using "scummy" now. why did you even use anti town before? what function did that term have?

Plus, he's a safe lynch now that he's a claimed vanillia (he's either a vanillia or a scum), and if he gets lynched no one else has to claim, which protects the power roles.

exactly why i think he shouldn't be lynched today (although when i tried to verbalize that before glork shit his pretty little panties). he's got absolutely no information benefit; he's a sinkhole. so unless you've got a great reason for why he's scum, i see no reason to lead a bandwagon on him now. unless, of course, you're planning on getting him lynched. which is something that i really don't foresee unless xtoxm does something monumentally stupid.

More defense of Xtoxm, more failure to hunt for scum.


And the smoking gun, if you will:

because i believe we have better things to do than to run up xtoxm's wagon again and try for a lynch. perhaps i should have said "right now"; this day still has some juice, and if we're going to sacrifice it for xotxm wagon 2, i think it's a real shame. again, a xtoxm lynch is not simply going to go away. but i don't think it will be a cipher at all.

Better things to do than to run him up and try for a lynch.

Yet Corio just made

SEVEN

posts between his "I'm in the business of scumhunting" and this one in which he not ONCE mentioned anything other than "lynching Xtoxm is bad." Not ONCE did he say "hey, let's hear more from Charter." Not ONCE did he apply more pressure to dahill. Not ONCE did he say "I could also vote for X or Y." Not ONCE did he provide an alternative to Xtoxm.

Has anything?

i agree. so why use them?

Here he takes a shot at meta... again, no scumhunting.


At this point I make my case against him, explaining that all he's doing is defending Xtoxm and posting nothing but FLUFF about scumhunting without ACTUALLY SCUMHUNTING.


Here is his response:

This is at least the second time you've preached about "having better things to do," yet

I DON'T SEE YOU DOING THESE "THINGS" THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

.

thanks for making me read two paragraphs. i guess writing superfluous sentences really makes the bullshit seem more official.

at the beginning of the game, i laid out two things a player could do: start a wagon or join one. i joined one. i've stated my reasoning for joining said wagon. better yet, i've responded to arguments to the contrary, and i commented on another wagon that seems to be gaining popularity.

i could also engage in oratorical gymnastics. but i'm not going to, because that's not what a fucking townie does. i might as well take pictures of me dancing a tango on my desk. i'm actually going to focus on the game and do what i think a townie does.

"Blah blah, you're just spewing words, I'm looking for scum." So, what, making one post to explain your stance on Dahill, then a couple of throwaway posts about Dahill is "finding scum"? You seem to have plenty of time to defend Xtoxm, so why haven't you bothered to explore more than ONE person whom you believe to be scummy?




I didn't have a problem with him defending Xtoxm, aside from the fact that I found both Xtoxm to be scummy, but when he says he wants to "get more out of the day" and that he's "in the business of hunting scum" but spends seven posts not hunting scum, that bothers me. I'm honestly stunned that both of you, Ether/Patrick, can feel so strongly against this. Corio was all bark and no bite, and it wasn't until I dragged him kicking and screaming back into the limelight that he actually followed up on this whole "I think we need to find scum" thing.

[Glork]

i'm glad glork has deemed me unworthy of responding to the things i actually said. or maybe he's so busy typing his own posts he forgot to read mine.

No, I sometimes read in reverse, so to speak, when catching up on posts, and the Pathetric transgression was something I had to respond to immediately.

i do suffer from tunnel vision. and maybe you're right; maybe i haven't engaged enough or have been aggressive enough. but i think that's an indication of a mistake, and not of being scummy. because the intent is certainly there.

But how does one distinguish between "honest mistake" and "scummy"? Why should I believe in your intent? That's why I've spent so much time purusing this, because I want to either confirm or debunk my suspicions.

to be honest, you haven't given me much of a chance to engage anybody.

I hate this so much. There is ZERO reason that you can't respond to me and say something like "man, Charter really needs to post more, it looks like he's just sliding by without doing much." (Incidentally, Charter -- I really do want to hear more from you.) Take, for example, Post 205 where yes, I spend most of my time fleshing out my case on you, but I also discuss things I don't like about Erratus and about Yos2, and I confirm that I'm still willing to go for an Xtox lynch if necessary. It's just that, if you say you're "focused on scumhunting," and you want the town to shake and move, then dammit, I expect you to be a shaker and a mover.

glork, THERE IS ANOTHER CRIMINAL. no "might" bullshit. there is. we know this, because the game hinges on there BEING another criminal (i can make capitals things too!). so i figure we might as well try to spend the day wisely, instead of lazily bumbling through what i consider to be a poorly conceived lynch.

I was assuming you meant "Mirage = Dahill" here. Of course there's another criminal SOMEWHERE, but your vote is sitting on Dahill, so I am assuming that's the "other place" you want us to look. And Dahill "might or might not" be a criminal. Am I mistaken?

[Simenon]

ugh, a detailed pbpa. i'm not going to get through it before christmas. so may i just respond to one charge:
you act as if all of those pages covered a huge length of time. it happened in two or three days. i've got shit going on. why can't you understand that i'm not going to pick through the game? when i said give me time, i didn't mean time expressed in page numbers, meant time expressed in, well shit, actual

time.

why don't you apply any of these rigorous standards to anybody else? is it because i took away attention from your little wagon?

[Coriolanus]

this is why i can't have nice things.

FWIW i will respond to that PBPA in the future even though it's mostly garbage.

[Pathetric]

Ha.

[Pathetric]

That's exactly the point I'm trying to MAKE, Patrick. Corio seems to want to "get more out of the day," butj for the time he's spent in this thread, his actual, real-time scumhunting has been minimal, IMO.

My point there is that I don't see him defending Xtoxm "rather than scumhunting", I see him as doing both. The last two quotes before your smoking gun quote:

The first contains a critisism/question of Yos2's reason for voting Xtoxm. I don't see how that could be seen as unproductive; questioning someone's (shoddy?) vote on a player you read as town seems like a common type of scumhunting.

The quote after that continues that line of questioning. He's even pointed out that Yos2 changed his term from anti-town to scummy, seems like a valid point. You don't see any scumhunting at all in these posts? I have a much better idea of his thoughts on the game than I do from a number of other players. I also don't think his desire to continue the day places any burden on him to suddenly become more active than he already has been; it seems obvious with 2 week deadlines that the mod is unreasonable enough to not even extend for christmas, we should be taking all the time we can get.

Interesting to find out who Corio is. I'll respond to Yos2 in a bit. Patrick.

[Glork]

ugh, a detailed pbpa. i'm not going to get through it before christmas. so may i just respond to one charge:
you act as if all of those pages covered a huge length of time. it happened in two or three days. i've got shit going on. why can't you understand that i'm not going to pick through the game? when i said give me time, i didn't mean time expressed in page numbers, meant time expressed in, well shit, actual

time.

why don't you apply any of these rigorous standards to anybody else? is it because i took away attention from your little wagon?

I feel like I've won this game already.

[Glork]

EBWOP: That was quoting Sim posting, not the content of his post. I haven't actually read the content of his post yet.

[Glork]

why don't you apply any of these rigorous standards to anybody else? is it because i took away attention from your little wagon?

Simple. Because you're the one who seemed too concerned with "scumhunting" to defend yourself against a point that I made.

Patrick: I see the point you're making, but I just hadn't seen it that way. It still reads more "defend Xtox" than "attack Yos" to me.

[Glork]

Ether, have you been revealed as scum (via death or end-of-game) in any games since I left the site?

[Xtoxm]

Is Sim an alt of someone? He's not in this game.

[Glork]

Is Sim an alt of someone? He's not in this game.

Sim = Corio, for those keeping score at home.