Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Sir Tornado]

I am going through a period of acute depression (academics) please tolerate me for sometime. Not all the inactivity is down to that though. I generally play in bouts of concentrated activity with a brief period of inactivity, but I agree that this recent inactivity was way too excessive.

Read a few of the pages I was inactive in, and skimmed the rest (will read them in detail while I type this out), the things strike me:

Re: Tubby PM quotation thing -- I don't agree with BM, I think it is a null tell. Agree with Xyl on this one.

Re: Der Hammer -- Miller claim isn't scummy, but his subsequent posts are. Especially the one where he unvotes himself very quickly. Also, I disagree with Xyl about dealing with Miller issue, agree with Vollkan regarding that. I don't see why Seraphim votes Der Hammer after the claim, is it because he disbelieves the claim, or agrees with Der Hammer that miller should be lynched?

Either ways, I think DH falls in the Puta Puta category, he's marked himself out for the town now. No need to rush through and lynch him immediately if a better option is available, but no way he should be allowed to survive till end game.

As far as Claus goes, we're all agreeing to completely ignore Gimbo's fuckery and give him a clean slate, right? I'm pretty sure that is the way to go.

No, No, NO. That would be the worst play EVER.

And, Claus, please claim immediately. Or, rather, confirm Puta Puta's claim.

Oh, forget it...

Mod, Please replace me

. I can't bring myself to do this anymore. Apologies, but I simply can't carry on in my current mind frame. If you think we are too close to the deadline, then replace me at the start of D2, that would be fine too. Sorry all, if someone wants me to answer any of my plays during the course of the game, please ask right now.

[vollkan]

Best wishes Sir T.

as far as der hammer,, i would support that lynch i know he is a claimed miller but i do not understand why its in the best interest of the town to keep him around, cause we will show up as scum if investigated, so that would be a wasted investigation, but if we lkynch him that would also be a wasted lynch,and the scum get a kill , so by lynching der hammer it would be like if we voted not lynch at this point right?,, so thats the quandry as i understand it is that correct??

No.

The quandary is that some people (see Xyl's posts for a better explanation) have a view that miller claims are innately scummy and should be auto-lynchable offences . Others (eg. me) think that miller claims should be treated with doubt and so on, but not an autolynch.

There are also the subsequent posts by DH to consider.

[tubby216]

Best wishes Sir T.

as far as der hammer,, i would support that lynch i know he is a claimed miller but i do not understand why its in the best interest of the town to keep him around, cause we will show up as scum if investigated, so that would be a wasted investigation, but if we lkynch him that would also be a wasted lynch,and the scum get a kill , so by lynching der hammer it would be like if we voted not lynch at this point right?,, so thats the quandry as i understand it is that correct??

No.

The quandary is that some people (see Xyl's posts for a better explanation) have a view that miller claims are innately scummy and should be auto-lynchable offences . Others (eg. me) think that miller claims should be treated with doubt and so on, but not an autolynch.

There are also the subsequent posts by DH to consider.

such as his lack of content, and utter non opinion on anything really related to the game? there by makin his his claim seem scummy

[Seraphim]

I like my vote where it is. Der Hammer's lack of actual content until he was attacked leads me to believe he is active-lurking. His miller claim smells. I'd be a lot less willing to lynch him if his miller claim had come closer to the beginning of the game rather than when he was attacked. Instead, it only comes when he is attacked. Therefore, I like my vote.

[Sir Tornado]

The quandary is that some people (see Xyl's posts for a better explanation) have a view that miller claims are innately scummy and should be auto-lynchable offences . Others (eg. me) think that miller claims should be treated with doubt and so on, but not an autolynch.

IMO, you should treat a miller claim as a player who is unreadable. You don't rush to lynch him because the player is unreadable, but you don't allow the player to live until the end of the game, where you want to have as few unknown quantities as possible. Claimed miller is, thus a very good target for vig if the vig is taking a shot based on his hunch.

Ecto's plan (case 2) is good too. But, only as long as the plan isn't out in the open. Once it is in the open, like it is now, it's effect is negated IMO. You need a town filled with experienced as well as good players to carry that out.

I like my vote where it is. Der Hammer's lack of actual content until he was attacked leads me to believe he is active-lurking. His miller claim smells. I'd be a lot less willing to lynch him if his miller claim had come closer to the beginning of the game rather than when he was attacked. Instead, it only comes when he is attacked. Therefore, I like my vote.

The problem with that reaction to a Miller claim is, that Miller is a unusual claim for mafia to make in this situation. It's a big gambit, in that it may not work. If he wanted one that worked, he would have claimed doctor, something that would make absolutely sure that he survived today (or outed the real doctor). The BW against Der Hammer wasn't too big for him to have to claim (unless he got a massive panic attack), and he could have easily absorbed that pressure successfully. That's the problem with his claim being false.

At this stage, it doesn't matter if the claim is true or false though. Der Hammer has managed to separate himself from the rest of the town with the claim. That's good enough if he is mafia. He won't (or, rather shouldn't) survive for long. So, in case he is mafia, he's in the bag.

[Xylthixlm]

At this stage, it doesn't matter if the claim is true or false though. Der Hammer has managed to separate himself from the rest of the town with the claim. That's good enough if he is mafia. He won't (or, rather shouldn't) survive for long. So, in case he is mafia, he's in the bag.

This is a ridiculous argument for not lynching someone.

Fos: Sir Tornado

[Yosarian2]

@xyl

ok what is the case on TI?? i must have missed it,

as far as der hammer,, i would support that lynch i know he is a claimed miller but i do not understand why its in the best interest of the town to keep him around, cause we will show up as scum if investigated, so that would be a wasted investigation, but if we lkynch him that would also be a wasted lynch,and the scum get a kill , so by lynching der hammer it would be like if we voted not lynch at this point right?,, so thats the quandry as i understand it is that correct??

Well, no.

If he is lying scum, then we need to lynch him at some point or we lose. If he is a pro-town miller, then we obv don't want to lynch him at all.

The fact that he can't be cop investigated (no matter if he's telling the truth or lying, he should come up guilty) makes him slightly less useful to the town, but not by that much; it's not like we can investigate everyone.

So basically we should be lynching him if we think he's scum, and not if we think he's town; you know, just like anyone else.

[tubby216]

ok thanks yos i was just trying really hard to understand the theory behind it,, for some reason its one of the concepts i cannot get,

[Der Hammer]

Some of you have been incredible hypocrites and hopefully you will get called on it. Accusing me of offering no content will simply offering bland and baseless attacks on me based on "active-lurking" while hiding behind that yourselves. Early in the game I was a miller trying to get through the day without really being a factor. Obviously I didn't want to get investigated, so I tried to slip into day two....in a way I acted just like scum so some people picked up on it. I wasnt sure how to play it, so I decided just to tell the truth and possibily make it work for the town. I still believe it can, because I hope most of you believe me.

IMO, you should treat a miller claim as a player who is unreadable. You don't rush to lynch him because the player is unreadable, but you don't allow the player to live until the end of the game, where you want to have as few unknown quantities as possible. Claimed miller is, thus a very good target for vig if the vig is taking a shot based on his hunch.

Don't like this directing of the vig. Seems like Mafia trying to get a vig to do their dirty work.

Unvote, Vote Sir Tornado.

[Sir Tornado]

Don't like this directing of the vig. Seems like Mafia trying to get a vig to do their dirty work.

Er... mafia would want to NK a a person who claims a miller... why exactly?

This is a ridiculous argument for not lynching someone. Fos: Sir Tornado

Did you read the preceding paragraph?

That's

the reason.

[Hoopla]

Some of you have been incredible hypocrites and hopefully you will get called on it. Accusing me of offering no content will simply offering bland and baseless attacks on me based on "active-lurking" while hiding behind that yourselves.

I think the main point people are making is the fact you didn't start offering content until you were attacked.

Early in the game I was a miller trying to get through the day without really being a factor. Obviously I didn't want to get investigated, so I tried to slip into day two....in a way I acted just like scum so some people picked up on it. I wasnt sure how to play it, so I decided just to tell the truth and possibily make it work for the town. I still believe it can, because I hope most of you believe me.

There's a difference between getting through the day and then lurking for a month. Your best chance to avoid investigation would be offering constructive input and appearing astute. By not posting...at all, really, you're just inviting a lurkerwagon on yourself, which ruins your plan.

Hopefully a vig takes care of you.

[vollkan]

Best wishes Sir T.

as far as der hammer,, i would support that lynch i know he is a claimed miller but i do not understand why its in the best interest of the town to keep him around, cause we will show up as scum if investigated, so that would be a wasted investigation, but if we lkynch him that would also be a wasted lynch,and the scum get a kill , so by lynching der hammer it would be like if we voted not lynch at this point right?,, so thats the quandry as i understand it is that correct??

No.

The quandary is that some people (see Xyl's posts for a better explanation) have a view that miller claims are innately scummy and should be auto-lynchable offences . Others (eg. me) think that miller claims should be treated with doubt and so on, but not an autolynch.

There are also the subsequent posts by DH to consider.

such as his lack of content, and utter non opinion on anything really related to the game? there by makin his his claim seem scummy

I don't think you can say that his poor play makes his claim seem scummy. The claim is a null-tell. His play is scummy. He is a "better than average" lynch, sure, but his claim is not rendered scummy simply because of his play.

I like my vote where it is. Der Hammer's lack of actual content until he was attacked leads me to believe he is active-lurking. His miller claim smells. I'd be a lot less willing to lynch him if his miller claim had come closer to the beginning of the game rather than when he was attacked. Instead, it only comes when he is attacked. Therefore, I like my vote.

What Sir T and Yos said.

Don't like this directing of the vig. Seems like Mafia trying to get a vig to do their dirty work.

Unvote, Vote Sir Tornado.

Don't like this attack on Sir T. There is nothing wrong with a player giving their opinion on optimal vig strategy. If I think that I have an idea of what a vig should do, I should express it. Now, the vig needs to take everything with a grain of salt and use their own judgment, but Sir T made a perfectly reasonable point (which I happen to agree with) that a claimed miller can be a good vig target (provided the vig thinks it has the best chances of hitting scum).

I would like to explain for me why Sir T giving his opinion on a vig's kill is actually scummy, rather than simply accusing him of "directing" the vig.

[OhGodMyLife]

[out of game]Sir T, sorry to hear about your issues, hope you get well soon.[/out of game]

Everyone who has expressed a willingness to lynch Sir T today or FoSed him should quit pussyfooting around and vote him already. Xyl, I'm looking at you here.

[Sir Tornado]

OGML: You accuse me of being scum in this post, I respond to most of your accusations in this post, and you just ignore it and go after Tubby for the time being. Why?

What do you think about Seraphim? (don't accuse me of deflecting attention from my BW here)

[Sir Tornado]

Also, if I am going to be lynched, I want Shanba and YoS to put their reasons for suspecting me on the record right now.

[OhGodMyLife]

OGML: You accuse me of being scum in this post, I respond to most of your accusations in this post, and you just ignore it and go after Tubby for the time being. Why?

What do you think about Seraphim? (don't accuse me of deflecting attention from my BW here)

Tubby needed a wagon to straighten him out.

As for Sera, I'll join the suggesting vig strategies party and say he'd be a pretty optimal vig choice. Recently, he's done a lot of wagoning lurkers and nothing.

[Sir Tornado]

Tubby needed a wagon to straighten him out.

You ignore that post again

[Sir Tornado]

As for Sera, I'll join the suggesting vig strategies party and say he'd be a pretty optimal vig choice. Recently, he's done a lot of wagoning lurkers and nothing.

And, wondering how well this sits with your accusation of me trying to set up his lynch. Also, wondering whether you still think I and Tubby are scum buddies (if so, why would you want to "straighten him out"?)

[Xylthixlm]

Don't like this directing of the vig. Seems like Mafia trying to get a vig to do their dirty work.

Er... mafia would want to NK a a person who claims a miller... why exactly?

This is a ridiculous argument for not lynching someone. Fos: Sir Tornado

Did you read the preceding paragraph?

That's

the reason.

Either he is scummy and should be lynched, or he isn't scummy and therefore not "in the bag". Pick one.

[Sir Tornado]

Either he is scummy and should be lynched, or he isn't scummy and therefore not "in the bag". Pick one.

You mean something along the lines of:

Guys, I think we've got a decision to make, right here, right now. Either we lynch Ectomancer immediately, or we trust him completely forever. THOSE ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS.

?

He is unreadable to me in terms of alignment based on that miller claim. Not sufficiently scummy to lynch yet. Also, by "in the bag", I meant to indicate that there was no way he could be scum and get away with this forever. It's the same scenario as with Puta Puta. I don't see anyway he is going to live until end game after that claim, so I am not too concerned to lynch him right now.

[Xylthixlm]

Either he is scummy and should be lynched, or he isn't scummy and therefore not "in the bag". Pick one.

You mean something along the lines of:

Guys, I think we've got a decision to make, right here, right now. Either we lynch Ectomancer immediately, or we trust him completely forever. THOSE ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS.

?

No.

He is unreadable to me in terms of alignment based on that miller claim. Not sufficiently scummy to lynch yet. Also, by "in the bag", I meant to indicate that there was no way he could be scum and get away with this forever. It's the same scenario as with Puta Puta. I don't see anyway he is going to live until end game after that claim, so I am not too concerned to lynch him right now.

So, if I understand your position correctly, he is scummy enough that we will lynch him eventually but not scummy enough to lynch today. Is that correct?

[Sir Tornado]

So, if I understand your position correctly, he is scummy enough that we will lynch him eventually but not scummy enough to lynch today. Is that correct?

No. I meant that the danger in not lynching him today is very minimal. And, I have already told why there is a good chance he may not be scum in post 829.

[Xylthixlm]

Let's change the question. If, through some amazing miracle, DH stayed exactly as scummy as he is now for the rest of the game, at what point would you be willing to lynch him?

[Sir Tornado]

Let's change the question. If, through some amazing miracle, DH stayed exactly as scummy as he is now for the rest of the game, at what point would you be willing to lynch him?

I'd prefer the vig option. Even if you forget that he has claimed, he still is a good N1 vig target (although there would be a few others in the same bracket as him, like Killa Seven, Natirasha, Sensfan, etc) unless the vig has spotted someone genuinely scummy and wants to bump them off.

And, things would still change even if DH remains the same. Other people's alignment will be revealed; their interactions with DH will be taken into account, etc; so your scenario is almost impossible to achieve.

[curiouskarmadog]

I like my vote where it is. Der Hammer's lack of actual content until he was attacked leads me to believe he is active-lurking. His miller claim smells. I'd be a lot less willing to lynch him if his miller claim had come closer to the beginning of the game rather than when he was attacked. Instead, it only comes when he is attacked. Therefore, I like my vote.

curious Seraphim, if you compare your content versus Der Hammer's, who do you think has more content and game discussion...please explain why.

+++

Sir T, if you are battling despression, then this game isnt for you....sorry.