Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[Pathetric]

Um, I just gave 3 reasons why him claiming vanilla for no reason is a good reason to lynch him. Town should never claim vanillia, at all, but scum tend to want to claim vanillia, so it's a scum tell. Plus, he's a safe lynch now that he's a claimed vanillia (he's either a vanillia or a scum), and if he gets lynched no one else has to claim, which protects the power roles.

Scum tend to want to claim vanilla? Your experience must be very different to mine. On the contrary, I see lots of townies carelessly claiming vanilla because they don't think their role is especially important; it's poor play but I don't see how that translates to scummy, and in my experience scum prefer to wait until a claim is explicitly forced out of them. Why would it be beneficial for scum to claim vanilla before they need to? That baffles me. Premature claims are something I've found to be a reliable pro-town sign with newbies, of course Xtoxm isn't a newbie, so I'm less sure what it means for him, but I can't see any reason why Xtoxm-scum would be more likely to do it.

And yet, I cut you slack for this because I know you have a policy of lynching claimed vanillas on day 1, but I think the post where you voted Xtoxm reaches to try and make him look bad. You make an interesting point about dahill. I'll have to take a look, or even better, be lazy and weedle Ether into taking a look.

Patrick.

[Coriolanus]

Has anything?

i agree. so why use them?

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

Xtoxm: 5 (Incognito, Assmaster, Glork, Yosarian2, dahill1)
dahill1: 3 (Pathetric, charter, Coriolanus)
Glork: 1 (Xtoxm)
Erratus Apathos: 1 (Rally Vincent)
Rally Vincent: 1 (Erratus Apathos)

Not Voting: 1 (Tuberkulos)

[Incognito]

Hm. A lot of stuff happened since I last posted here.

About Yos2's Vanilla-claim-more-likely-coming-from-scum thing, I happen to agree with Patrithetic; in my experience, premature vanilla claims (from raw newbies at least) happen to be extremely reliable pro-town indicators and have in pretty much every instance I've seen have

always

come from town. Also, I've seen scum fake-claim pro-town power roles on D1 often enough that I used to give D1 Vanilla claims extremely high credence. Recent experience has made me feel differently about this though. Yosarian2, does your experience suggest otherwise?

Granted, Xtoxm isn't a new player, so I don't think this tell that I have found to be useful is as applicable here, but I'm still interested in you elaborating on your experience with this.

On Patrick - He said he spoke with Ether about finding me scummy for meta reasons, and Ether disagreeing. I have never played Ether, so I see no reason why she would overrule his opinion on my meta, whcih makes me think they are scum and were infact discussing whether to attack me for my play fitting my scum meta.

And btw, I think it's too early to say whether i'm fitting my town or scum meta, given how little has gone on.

So those we be my top 3 atm. Glork today, imo.

You played with Ether in PYP3, and she's well aware of your meta. She "overruled" me for basically the reason given in your second paragraph, I think.

This strikes me as odd coming from Ether. In that very same game you're referencing, it felt like, to me at least, Ether couldn't pick up on Xtoxm-scum any sooner than she did; I felt like she nabbed him almost immediately upon his entry to the thread, and she pretty much gave me hell for it the entire rest of the game because I didn't pick up on him soon enough. Why does she now believe that we haven't seen enough from him to be able to come to a definitive conclusion about his alignment? Further, I'd say in NG 581, figuring him out 3 pages in is hardly a large stretch of time to give someone to become involved in the game.

The people i'm calling scummy are all voting me...

I'm assuming this wasn't in reference to me? I don't recall you mentioning that you found me scummy in this game. I'd also like for you to elaborate on how Yosarian2's post seemed to leak implied knowledge that you're town. I've read it a number of times and haven't been able to arrive at the same conclusion.

Xtoxm-hate aside, I do have to admit that I'm not completely fond of Yosarian2's or dahill1's votes on him. I realize that Yosarian2 had mentioned prior to his vote that he could see himself voting Xtoxm, but his quick vote on him after what could have easily been miscommunication doesn't sit very well with me. I think the more practical way of dealing with it would have been to ask Xtoxm how his post has implied knowledge that he's town rather than just laying the vote down so quickly. I also need to look into dahill1's past town games to see if he does happen to play the way Yosarian2 indicated he does, though dahill1 himself mentioned that his forum play is different from his face-to-face play. I could've sworn he was in a game that I took over modding before, but I could be mixing him up with someone else.

[Assmaster]

I don't think Xtoxm is scum.

unvote

.

[Glork]

Holy balls, thread explosion. Don't you people have better things to do with your Saturday nights?


Regarding Erratus: Now I understand the subtle difference that he (and Patrick) are trying to make here. Nowever, I do not agree with it

at all

. "Can't say anything wrong if I don't say anything at all" is what I'm getting out of that, and that really irritates me.


I still think Xtoxm is reasonably likely to be scum, but Corio is pinging major hard right now.
First, I still can't find any protown reason for the "if X is scum, we can lynch them later" comment. Why the fuck would you want to keep a suspected scumbag alive? It really sounds like a way of saying "yeah, he should be scum, but we should lynch elsewhere." He mentions in his original post that "Xtoxm seems harmless," but no scumbag -- no matter how good or bad their play -- is harmless.
Now, he's going ridiclous out-of-his-way to defend Xtoxm. It's interesting that, just after telling me he'd rather hunt for scum than "defending himself over one comment." Yet he just spent an entire page defending Xtoxm, rathar than hunting scum. Now granted, there are some differences there (namely, that there is more substance behind the Xtoxm wagon than there was behind my FoS of him).
Thirdly, I actually thought exactly what dahill thought about the whole "post restriction" comment... I'll just QFT Post 185 here.


I will say that in spite of Yos's known "claimed vanilla townies should die" theory (something with which I still disagree, by the way), I dislike his "safe lynch" comment regarding Xtoxm. It feels like an underhanded way of trying to get fence-sitters to just finish him off.


And finally, back to Corio:

because i believe we have better things to do than to run up xtoxm's wagon again and try for a lynch. perhaps i should have said "right now"; this day still has some juice, and if we're going to sacrifice it for xotxm wagon 2, i think it's a real shame. again, a xtoxm lynch is not simply going to go away. but i don't think it will be a cipher at all.

This is at least the second time you've preached about "having better things to do," yet

I DON'T SEE YOU DOING THESE "THINGS" THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

. You preach about wanting to hunt scum, then just sit around trying to derail a very good bandwagon. You preach about wanting to "get more out of the day," yet I don't see you actively promoting further discussion.

All I'm seeing from Corio is a lot of hand-waving. It's as if, by swearing a bunch and making generalizations about "what the town should be doing," he can look like a big player in the game. But if you look at what he's actually done, it's been VERY little. I'm willing to set aside the whole "alt or not" discussion, because I pretty much instigated it, but if you get right down to it, his real-time contributions to the game have amounted to a vote on dahill for sheeping, and now defending Xtox.

Unvote, Vote: Corio

Ironic that in voting Corio, I'm shrinking the Xtoxm wagon that he so dislikes, but this is obviously the right play.

[Yosarian2]

Scum tend to want to claim vanilla? Your experience must be very different to mine. On the contrary, I see lots of townies carelessly claiming vanilla because they don't think their role is especially important; it's poor play but I don't see how that translates to scummy, and in my experience scum prefer to wait until a claim is explicitly forced out of them.

Hmmm...interesting.

I was talking in terms of motivation, that scum have a reason to want to claim vanillia townie and town don't; you are right, though, that in practice town probably carelessly claim vanillia as much as scum do.

Still, I would really rather hear Xtoxm explain

1. Why he decided to claim

and

2. What he was talking about when he said he thought I "knew he was pro-town"

rather then hear everyone else in the game defend him before he even bothers to defend himself.

[Glork]

Yos and Prim, you should vote for Corio. The Corio wagon (yea, it's gonna be a wagon) has punch and pie, and we will be holding a raffle for a BIG SCREEN TV later on!!!

[Glork]

ebwop: ass not prim

[Yosarian2]

I will say that in spite of Yos's known "claimed vanilla townies should die" theory (something with which I still disagree, by the way), I dislike his "safe lynch" comment regarding Xtoxm. It feels like an underhanded way of trying to get fence-sitters to just finish him off.

I know a lot of people hate the whole "safe lynch" concept, but it really is true and valid in this case.

I should make clear, since lots of people seem to be misunderstanding this, that I'm not actually pushing for an instant speedlynch of Xtoxm or whatever; I mean, the game is only, what, 5 days old? We do need to put pressure on him until he starts making sense, though, and I find it frustrating that so many people are making it so hard for me to do that by everyone in the game suddenly jumping to his defense here.

[Glork]

Well the point I'm getting that is that the point of a "safe lynch" in no way makes him any more likely to be scum, which should be far and away the primary reason somebody votes to lynch. I don't think it's "true and valid in this case," because I think that it's only true and valid in a VERY small percentage of cases, and "D1 claimed townie" does NOT fall into that category.

[Yosarian2]

Well the point I'm getting that is that the point of a "safe lynch" in no way makes him any more likely to be scum, which should be far and away the primary reason somebody votes to lynch.

No, it dosn't, which is why I specifically said that it's not enough reason on it's own to want to vote him; however, it is a strong supporting reason.

[Glork]

No, it's not a strong supporting reason. It is a terrible one.

[Assmaster]

Yos and Prim, you should vote for Corio. The Corio wagon (yea, it's gonna be a wagon) has punch and pie, and we will be holding a raffle for a BIG SCREEN TV later on!!!

I see exactly what you're saying. Assuming he is from conquer club, there are reasons that it could make sense though, so I'm a bit dubious about voting him for something that could potentially be playstyle deviations. BTW, I have played a handful of games on conquer club, so I do know at least a little of what I'm talking about, and there are specific things I'm assiging his flaws to that are a little more prevelant there. However, I don't think they'd be this exagerrated if they were there.

Bandwagon

vote Corio

though, to see what he does.

No, it's not a strong supporting reason. It is a terrible one.

Entirely in agreement with Glork. It's not a reason to consider giving him another day, but it's not remotely a point in favour of his lynch.

[Coriolanus]

HThis is at least the second time you've preached about "having better things to do," yet

I DON'T SEE YOU DOING THESE "THINGS" THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

.

thanks for making me read two paragraphs. i guess writing superfluous sentences really makes the bullshit seem more official.

at the beginning of the game, i laid out two things a player could do: start a wagon or join one. i joined one. i've stated my reasoning for joining said wagon. better yet, i've responded to arguments to the contrary, and i commented on another wagon that seems to be gaining popularity.

i could also engage in oratorical gymnastics. but i'm not going to, because that's not what a fucking townie does. i might as well take pictures of me dancing a tango on my desk. i'm actually going to focus on the game and do what i think a townie does.

[Yosarian2]

No, it's not a strong supporting reason. It is a terrible one.

Tell me, all else being equal, which is better for the town; a day 1 where one guy claims vanillia and then gets lynched, or a day 1 where 4 people claim? In which scenerio are town power roles more likely to live long enough to help the town?

[Coriolanus]

also, it's really stupid to call arguing against a wagon "useless".

[Coriolanus]

but if you get right down to it, his real-time contributions to the game have amounted to a vote on dahill for sheeping, and now defending Xtox.

i have done more than simply write "vote dahill: for sheeping." but even if it was, i want to know how it is

inconsistent

with what i've been saying a townie should do. because here lies your argument: that i've been swaggering as a cover. so you've actually got to prove that assertion.

[Assmaster]

I agree with Glorks second point but don't think anymore that the evidence supports the first.

[Xtoxm]

Patrick's explanation actually makes good sense, so i'll lift my comment about him. Glork and Yos still look scummy. At first I found Corio's "come back later" comment scummy, but actually I think I agree with Ass it's not such a scumtell. Dahill i'm not sure about, could be scum, i'd vote him if needs be.

I'd also completely forgotten i'd played with Ether.

Yos is scummy because his post is directed at someone he either knows or believes to be town, he expresses anndoyance at the fact i'm town and claimed my role, rather than finding me suspicious for it (which later changes to once he realises his mistake).

I have already explained why I claimed, perhaps someone isn't reading the thread thoroughly?

[Glork]

but if you get right down to it, his real-time contributions to the game have amounted to a vote on dahill for sheeping, and now defending Xtox.

i have done more than simply write "vote dahill: for sheeping." but even if it was, i want to know how it is

inconsistent

with what i've been saying a townie should do. because here lies your argument: that i've been swaggering as a cover. so you've actually got to prove that assertion.

My contention is with the fact that you seem to be arguing that there are "more and better things to be done," but I hardly see you instigating discussion. I just looked over all of your posts in the game and found confirmation of this. Note that I'm omitting the random phase (i.e., the 1.5 or so pages -- basically, your first three posts).

You have interacted at reasonable lengths with me, dahill, xtoxm, and Yosarian2.

You have addresssed Tuberkulos and Erratus exactly once.

Unless I missed something, you have not ONCE mentioned or talked with Charter, Vincent, Incog, Pathetric, or Ass.

I am a firm believer that if you're going to ask for more discussion, more "juice," that you actually engage with other players. Note that I have instigated three discussions, that I'm actually

working

to get my hands dirty and actively and continually provoke fruitful debate. You seem to want everyone to do this, but you don't seem especially willing to practice what you preach.

I want to see you go out on a limb. I want to see some new inquiries from you. I do not believe that you are content to just sit around and defend a wagon and tell the rest of the town to do more while not helping them to do more.

i could also engage in oratorical gymnastics. but i'm not going to, because that's not what a fucking townie does.

The phrase "oratorical gymnastics" made me lol, but I absolutely take issue with your assertion that "that's not what a fucking townie does."
This post, this post, this post from this game are all good examples of me using rhetoric as a tool when protown. If you are dissatisfied with this, I can pull as many examples as you want until you're satisfied.

Point is, your flat assertion that "townies don't do X" is wrong. And I'm not saying this to get a point across to anybody but YOU. This is how I play at times, and you're going to have to deal with it. End of story. So don't go telling me that verbosity isn't useful to a protown player, because I guarantee you, you are DEAD wrong in that regard.

also, it's really stupid to call arguing against a wagon "useless".

Who is this directed at, and where did that person refer to the wagon as "useless"? Nowhere between pages 6 and 9 was that word ever used, aside from your post. For someone who just bitched to me about "oratorical gymnastics," you have chosen your misquote rather poorly.

[Assmaster]

Jesus christ EA, your 'honesty' post in mini 646 is hilariously ridiculous.

[Xtoxm]

I'm assuming this wasn't in reference to me?

No. It was in reference to Glork and Yos. I didn't mean everyone voting me too.

[Yosarian2]

Yos is scummy because his post is directed at someone he either knows or believes to be town, he expresses anndoyance at the fact i'm town and claimed my role, rather than finding me suspicious for it (which later changes to once he realises his mistake).

I've asked you to explain this 3 times now, and you haven't yet. What in my post gave you the idea I thought you were town?

I have already explained why I claimed, perhaps someone isn't reading the thread thoroughly?

You put yourself at lynch -2, then claimed because you were at lynch -2. What on earth made you think that was a good idea? And why would you claim vanillia townie just because you were at lynch -2 anyway, how is that ever a good idea?

[Yosarian2]

I'm assuming this wasn't in reference to me?

No. It was in reference to Glork and Yos. I didn't mean everyone voting me too.

...both of whom you only "suspected" because we were already suspecting you. And then you wonder why "everyone who you suspect is voting for you?"