667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[Vi]

See, my problem is that I know one of those two is scum, and I haven't figured out which.

Shouldn't that be everyone's problem right now? Bird in hand > two in bush, or something like that.
Granted, we need people here for that to go very far.

@mod: Prods, replacements, modkills, gift certificates, etc.

@kuribo: What's got you hung up on your decision?

[kuribo]

See, my problem is that I know one of those two is scum, and I haven't figured out which.

Shouldn't that be everyone's problem right now? Bird in hand > two in bush, or something like that.
Granted, we need people here for that to go very far.

@mod: Prods, replacements, modkills, gift certificates, etc.

@kuribo: What's got you hung up on your decision?

The fact that, as I've stated, I've found you scummy in the past, but I'm not sure if you're scummy enough for me to ignore the case against JDodge. I worry that the fact that I've found you scummy may be biasing my opinion. And unlike the others, I'm not willing to entertain "maybe" hitting a scum by choosing between Sche and charter--- either you or JDodge is scum, and they're the only choices I'm willing to entertain.

[kuribo]

And by Sche, I mean his replacement Sim.

[Simenon]

Jdodge: Sunday
kuribo: Saturday
charter: Thursday
Sche: Replaced
Vi: Friday

Prodding Jdodge

[kuribo]

and by that I mean I'm an idiot who didn't read "I'm replacing Sche" as "I, the mod, am going to find a replacement for Sche." that's what I get for posting when half asleep

[Vi]

I'll replace Scheherazade if you'll let me!

[kuribo]

I'll replace Scheherazade if you'll let me!

me too

[JDodge]

I think it's jdodge + kuribo. Gotta do some rereading before voting though.

Also, I was thinking. It might make sense not to lynch jdodge/vi today. If we nail scum today that isn't them (and assuming sche is cop) then it's an autowin tomorrow. Of course this excludes the scenario that it's jdodge/vi, which I find very possible.

FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE GETS IT!

Not distancing. Bussing. Scumpartner seeing his partner is going down and trying to ship him out of there as soon as possible.

Um... what? I was in no danger at the time. This makes zero sense.

You had already claimed doctor, had you not? Again, I think it

incredibly

safe to assume that this is the Godfather C9 setup, thus meaning that you would (as a scumpair) have knowledge of the setup containing a doctor. This means that by you

claiming

doc you put yourself in at least 3 times as much danger as you would need to normally. Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

Sche hammers for "bad play", you hold an objection; are you saying you wouldn't hammer charter for "bad play" (also, I find it interesting you seem to be now

admitting

that charter was playing badly) given the scenario?

Hardly.
I could much more easily rationalize eldarad trying to play well, but failing. charter's play has been both bad and scummy; he wasn't even trying in the first place. (But if it wins him the game as scum, perhaps it's not bad play. Hmm...)

So you can see eldarad as "trying to play well, but failing". Yet it still seems that you only see charter in the black-and-white categories of "good play = town, bad play = scum". Although I am getting rather sick of trying to defend charter's actions considering it seems he's just using me to fight his battles for me (the lazy ass), I would like to again point out that charter not even trying is not necessarily scummy. Especially when you point out that not even trying is

contrary to the scum motive of attempting to get townies lynched

, AND contrary to the secondary scum motive of attempting to blend in. Your entire line of logic against charter blatantly ignores the law of common sense in favour of the law of "he's not doing anything, must be scum".

I would argue that, in this current age of mafia wherein you have numerous people who have a more lurking playstyle, that lurking has ceased to become a meaningful tell and that lynch all lurkers is used solely as a tool to attempt to condition players into the standards of play that those who use it wish to enforce.

Bad play, not suspicion. Your afatchic-town to afatchic-scum point is easily countered when you consider that people change their mind.

And what kind of bad play is it for you to defend someone who

refuses

to defend himself, hmm? It's nonetheless striking that charter changes his mind about someone he insisted was most likely Town for a brief period when it became likely afatchic was going to a lynch, and as soon as afatchic showed up he backpedaled on it.

Why wouldn't I defend someone who refuses to defend themselves? Why should we only hold the bad against someone while refusing to look at the other side of the coin? Why is it scummy for me to attempt to prevent what I feel to be unfounded suspicion being laid upon someone?

I concede the second point when you put it in that context.

Writing off everything charter is doing as Bad Play is simply not going to fly. It's just my personal belief that people in general aren't terminally retarded and at some level know what they're doing and the consequences thereof.

That's just because you don't have enough experience with the idiots who play to become jaded enough to realize that people

are

terminally retarded and really

don't

know what they're doing and the consequences thereof. I'll admit that the naivety defense does make your pushing of charter much more believable, but I'm finding it hard to accept that defense all things considered.

I didn't feel like posting my case then. I'm going to go ahead and say "meta me" again, like I did to M-M.

I already have. Even if I were to buy that you brought yourself back to the

horrible monotony

that is this game, I still think it would have been more attractive IYO if people would just listen to you and fill in the details on their own.

Meta doesn't excuse everything. If I'm wrong on this statement, I'm going to quit whatever it is I'm doing and emulate your playstyle. (It certainly can't

hurt

my win %.)

Yes. I do think it would've been more attractive if people had looked for themselves or at very least remained cognizant of my opinion regardless of how much meaning was behind it at the time. Instead, people tend to dismiss opinions without what they feel to be "sufficient opinion" behind them. This is flawed because it essentially says "you're not allowed to have an opinion unless it's good enough for me". This is not necessarily an indictment against you, but rather a distaste for the current standard of play.

Yes, meta does not excuse everything. You're expanding my point to beyond the scope of what it contains. Please, just look at what I asked you to look at in a meta context.

I have a good meta on kuribo, and I thought I had a good meta on eldarad. Kuribo looks solidly town to me, and eldarad looked pretty damn scummy.

Well that's vague enough. Explain, especially since you're currently accusing kuribo of being my scumpartner (and your bussing link is nonexistent).

My metas on kuribo and eldarad are from roughly the same time. On a theoretical level, since my meta on eldarad proved to be wrong and presumably outdated, I can assume the same about my meta on kuribo. Thus my opinions in a meta context are invalid, thus I must use a non-meta context. I find non-meta contexts to be overly circumstantial. I feel that this makes my play overall worse. That was a typo on the whole "kuribo looks solidly town" bit, I meant to say kuribo

looked

solidly town.

I like how you declare that me and charter

must

be scum because we comprised half the eldarad wagon.

"Must" is a strong word, one you don't use unless you mean it in probabalistic terms. And that's you putting the word in my mouth.
Moreover, you're misrepresenting my position a bit. I said "there is at least one". That would be charter... or you, if we're leaving Scheherazade out. That's easy enough. And since both of you were pushing the same wagons earlier, I'm going to go ahead and say BOTH of you. This is separate of any individual claims against either of you, although they support each other nicely.

No, not really. You say that the scum was pushing the eldarad lynch. You then note that Sche and M-M are town. You then posit from that that both me and charter are scum

for the same reason

. It's pretty hard for you to argue that you're not indicting both of us on the same charge here. You're also arguing that at least one of us must be scum, then applying that in such a way that both of us must be scum - which is downright awkward, really.

- Why was the eldarad lynch a bad one?

He wasn't the best lynchee available IMO. I'm still

extremely

displeased at Scheherazade that he hammered without mentioning charter once. Further, half the four-person wagon (JDodge, M-M) was there in large measure for the sake of getting a lynch to occur, leaving charter (no comment) and Scheherazade as the people actually pushing eldarad as scummy.

You're indicting me on pushing the wagon and then lumping me in with one of two confirmed town players reasoning-wise? That's a bit odd, isn't it? Furthermore, how am I scum for supposedly pushing the eldarad lynch when you're saying that only Sche and charter were pushing the eldarad lynch? Something is ROTTEN IN DENMARK HERE.

- Who (of charter and kuribo) do you feel is most easily linked to yourself?

Neither. The person most easily linked to me was Machiavellian-Mafia.

Answer the question. In fact, I just noticed that the first time you voted me was when I asked you a question and then called you out for not answering it - perhaps you didn't

want

to answer the question for whatever reason.

Hmmmm.

In fact, I noticed this little hypocrisy too:

Oh hey, Scheherazade! I thought something was wrong with the forum for a second.

(And I wasn't referring to you as one of the utter n00bs in my other games; you actually have a grasp of the English language, ergo you're better off than 20% of the people I've seen.)

Thought you didn't believe people were "terminally retarded" in that way? Seems to be a bit more convenient for you to change your mind on that now, doesn't it?

I object. One hard lesson I've learned is that you Never Let Scum Go If Promised Another.
It's guaranteed that between me and JDodge, there is at least one Mafiate. However, it is NOT guaranteed that there is one between charter and kuribo. Considering that the primary proponent of the Godfather C9 setup is the person I

know

is scum, I think it's quite possible for Scheherazade to be your partner. Unlikely, eh. Possible, undeniably.
Moreover, your plan implicitly assumes that the line is clearly drawn between Vi-kuribo and JDodge-charter. It's not, and for you to propose this plan I'm curious as to whether you're capitalizing on this.

Again, I am almost entirely certain that this is GF C9. Which means there is a cop. No counter-claim means Sche is a cop. Sche being a cop means he is not scum. Sche not being scum means that by lynching one of charter/kuribo, we have a 50/50 shot as a town of lynching the correct one. I protect Sche, you can't kill me because that would expose you anyways (meaning you have to kill whichever of charter/kuribo is town). Sche investigates one of us. We lynch according to Sche's investigation. Town wins automatically.

Otherwise, we have to take a separate 50-50 chance which leads to insta-loss if we're wrong. If we're right, and I'm right about there being a GF, then we have to make the same 50-50 tomorrow. Which, according to my math, means lynching one of kuribo/charter gives us a 50% chance whereas lynching one of myself/Vi gives us a 25% overall chance.

Also, I never said anything about there being a Vi-kuribo and JD-charter line. I said solely that there were two parallels - Vi-JD and kuribo-charter. I prefer lynching on the latter to lynching on the former at the moment.

[Vi]

This means that by you claiming doc you put yourself in at least 3 times as much danger as you would need to normally.

Wait, hold the phone. Let me trace this conversation.
--kuribo's out-the-gate hate on you D1 was bussing.
-Why do you think this? I was in no danger at the time he replaced in.
--You claimed Doctor today to place yourself in danger.
I've already been in one Time Abuse Mafia, and I'm pretty sure I only signed up for one. No, I didn't claim Doctor D1, nor did KrisReizer IIRC.

Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

"Were I your scumpartner" WIFOM aside, I know of one scum power that would try it - a player who thinks he's clean countering someone he thinks can be bullied out of the game. If you get me lynched today, it doesn't matter if you're the Godfather or anything else; you win. Why would a Godfather be the one counterclaiming? Perhaps because he has a better reputation than his Goon partner, or more experience/confidence.
Moreover, if the Godfather were so concerned about getting lynched today, then perhaps in addition to counterclaiming he would push the lynch pressure off himself. 'Sound familiar? This would in turn allow him to use investigation immunity such that if he were investigated N2, he would be able to indict the other player immediately. All of the benefits of claiming Doc plus all of the benefits of being a Godfather, even with an authentic Doctor in the game!

So you can see eldarad as "trying to play well, but failing". Yet it still seems that you only see charter in the black-and-white categories of "good play = town, bad play = scum".

More like "not trying to play well, and failing".

I would like to again point out that charter not even trying is not necessarily scummy. Especially when you point out that not even trying is contrary to the scum motive of attempting to get townies lynched, AND contrary to the secondary scum motive of attempting to blend in. Your entire line of logic against charter blatantly ignores the law of common sense in favour of the law of "he's not doing anything, must be scum".

Towns self-destruct more often than not. Being on the periphery, or active lurking, is just fine if the Town's willing to lynch itself to LyLo.

I would argue that, in this current age of mafia wherein you have numerous people who have a more lurking playstyle, that lurking has ceased to become a meaningful tell and that lynch all lurkers is used solely as a tool to attempt to condition players into the standards of play that those who use it wish to enforce.

I don't have such a big deal with lurking as a playstyle as long as what you say when you DO show up is convincing. Active lurking is by definition failing at this, and is either a sign of staying in the background (see above) or being a playstyle miller. I've lost too many games to lurker-scum to agree with you.

Why wouldn't I defend someone who refuses to defend themselves? Why should we only hold the bad against someone while refusing to look at the other side of the coin? Why is it scummy for me to attempt to prevent what I feel to be unfounded suspicion being laid upon someone?

Good question. I would reserve that for unfounded suspicion, and only for people who cannot defend themselves (V/LA or getting replaced). The first part we can debate for a while longer, but the second part is where charter fails.

That's just because you don't have enough experience with the idiots who play to become jaded enough to realize that people are terminally retarded and really

don't

know what they're doing and the consequences thereof.

Which should be taken into account when looking at them. I'll defend people that I feel are newbs/n00bs when I believe I can understand why they're doing what they're doing if it's wrong. However, the suspicion should still surface that the person being defended is scum when it piles up, or if things stop becoming fully explicable by the n00b card.

I'll admit that the naivety defense does make your pushing of charter much more believable, but I'm finding it hard to accept that defense all things considered.

I'm feeling masochistic today. Why is it hard to accept?

I do think it would've been more attractive if people had looked for themselves or at very least remained cognizant of my opinion regardless of how much meaning was behind it at the time. Instead, people tend to dismiss opinions without what they feel to be "sufficient opinion" behind them. This is flawed because it essentially says "you're not allowed to have an opinion unless it's good enough for me".

But when it comes down to people disagreeing with your opinion, they have nothing to check why you believe the way you do. And considering the

horrible monotony

of the game, they won't be getting an answer for a while.

The flip side to this approach to scumhunting is that it essentially lets you direct the scumhunting efforts with seeming-little research effort of your own. That's a great place for scum to be. *continues taking notes*

My metas on kuribo and eldarad are from roughly the same time. On a theoretical level, since my meta on eldarad proved to be wrong and presumably outdated, I can assume the same about my meta on kuribo. Thus my opinions in a meta context are invalid, thus I must use a non-meta context. I find non-meta contexts to be overly circumstantial. I feel that this makes my play overall worse. That was a typo on the whole "kuribo looks solidly town" bit, I meant to say kuribo looked solidly town.

So your opinion of kuribo is...?

You then posit from that that both me and charter are scum

for the same reason.

Wordier but more accurate version: My separate beliefs that the two of you are scum are corroborated by this single reason, and it's not implausible to suggest you're together based on it.

You're indicting me on pushing the wagon and then lumping me in with one of two confirmed town players reasoning-wise? That's a bit odd, isn't it? Furthermore, how am I scum for supposedly pushing the eldarad lynch when you're saying that only Sche and charter were pushing the eldarad lynch? Something is ROTTEN IN DENMARK HERE.

Let me try this one again. charter and Scheherazade were the ones pushing it because it was scummy. You and M-M were pushing it for the sake of any lynch. That M-M turned up Town is circumstantial and doesn't reflect on you.

Answer the question. In fact, I just noticed that the first time you voted me was when I asked you a question and then called you out for not answering it - perhaps you didn't want to answer the question for whatever reason.

Hmmmm.

I cannot be linked easily to either kuribo or charter. If I had to pick one, it would be kuribo. I'll leave you to fill in my thought processes.
And about that question - you mean the one in 368? Another instance where I give a sarcastic answer

and then answer the question two lines later

. Context_is_good.

Thought you didn't believe people were "terminally retarded" in that way? Seems to be a bit more convenient for you to change your mind on that now, doesn't it?

This is an entertaining, if relatively pointless diversion. Let's compare charter to:
Prof. Guppy (Lynched D1)
MafiaMann (Lynched D1)
tubby216 (Replaced in D3)
Plus a few more people who are unfortunately in ongoing games. I'd place charter ahead of all of these people. The difference is, MafiaMann and tubby were actually trying. They would respond to questions and pressure - with helpful intent, if ineffectually.

Again, I am almost entirely certain that this is GF C9. Which means there is a cop. No counter-claim means Sche is a cop. Sche being a cop means he is not scum.

Sche not being scum means that by lynching one of charter/kuribo, we have a 50/50 shot as a town of lynching the correct one.

I protect Sche, you can't kill me because that would expose you anyways (meaning you have to kill whichever of charter/kuribo is town). Sche investigates one of us. We lynch according to Sche's investigation. Town wins automatically.

Otherwise, we have to take a separate 50-50 chance which leads to insta-loss if we're wrong.

If we're right, and I'm right about there being a GF, then we have to make the same 50-50 tomorrow. Which, according to my math, means lynching one of kuribo/charter gives us a 50% chance whereas lynching one of myself/Vi gives us a 25% overall chance.

More specifically than a JDodge, this is a JBarrelRoll for the amount of spin put in (see bold). As far as the Godfather investigation immunity bit goes, I think you're gambiting (see second response).

[Simenon]

Sotty7 replaces Scheherazade

Celebratory prods on anyone who hasn't posted since Monday.

Also, the deadline has been suspended until further notice.

[Sotty7]

Hi all. Currently about half way though the game. I have to step out and do some things, but I should be all caught up this evening, tomorrow at the latest.

[kuribo]

Hi all. Currently about half way though the game. I have to step out and do some things, but I should be all caught up this evening, tomorrow at the latest.

Good! Maybe you can make more sense of this game than I can.

[Sotty7]

Good! Maybe you can make more sense of this game than I can.

I think I fail at that. This game is hella confusing. Very interesting.... But confusing. Forgive the lateness of this post, I had to re-read portions of what I had already read to try and get a better feel. (Which was also prolonged by a couple gray screen of annoyance!)

On that point, I have a couple of questions.

No. He saw his lynch coming, saw he was going to have to back up his claim somehow, and breadcrumbed there in self-defense.

How does that change anything?
L-2 and rising would be a good time to think about how to dodge the noose. A claim would be a good way to do it; crumbs would be there to show that you've been meaning to claim eventually since... oh wait... you were put to L-2 and had incentive to claim to save your own skin. Crumbs are much more effective the earlier they are made, IMO.

'Mind if I give you some food for thought along these lines, just to speed this along a little?

I'm the Doctor

, and I protected Scheherazade last night. If nobody wants to counterclaim, and Scheherazade IS indeed a Town-side Cop, then charter and JDodge have giant targets on them. Unless someone wants to argue that kuribo/afatchic is the Godfather...

Why did you feel the need to claim here Vi? You weren't under any real pressure that I can see and when I read it just struck me as strange. You say in your response to the JDodge quote that Moo shoulda just claimed because breadcrumbing at L-2 is pretty weak. Isn't claiming unprovked equally as strange?

My guess is Vi-kuribo over Vi-charter. I

highly

doubt that Sche is scum. I think kuribo is more likely than charter based on the M-M kill last night, which indicates doc-hunting.

I can see your point about the MM kill being about "doc hunting" but can you explain why kuribo is more likely to do this than Charter?

The issue here being that we've narrowed it down to the following setups:

C9
Pie C9
Two of Four A7
Bird C9
Godfather C9

Out of these, I would make the following assumptions:

There is no mafia roleblocker. (Rules out Pie C9)
The mafia had some reason to not kill the cop.

NOW, if you're scum, you know the role of both yourself and your partner. In the case of C9, Two of Four, and Bird, there would be two goons. This also fits numerous setups sans doc, which means that the only logical play is to attempt to kill the cop.

However, if the scum has a GF, then they possess the knowledge that there is a cop, hence they know that if they attempt to kill the cop, they will almost certainly fail. Therefore, their only chance is to attempt to find the doc as soon as possible; this allows them to kill the cop, thus allowing them to stop the damage before it ruins them.

Therefore, I make the easy, logical assumption that this is indeed GF C9.

And furthermore, my pick for your partner is not setup-based insofar that I believe Sche's investigation damns kuribo; rather, it is based on my current opinion of whom I feel is best linked to you. Your rocky history with charter does not seem like distancing to me.

While the logic here is pretty sound, the ease at which you dismiss the other set ups and then settle on the Godfather setup makes me a little uneasy. While I agree that there probably isn't a mafia roleblocker, it doesn't mean that we aren't in a Two of Four A7 with the two being a cop and a doc. Vi at least doesn't seem to be ruling anything out, no matter how unlikely.

Also, how do you see kuribo linked with Vi?

I would also like to propose the following:

We lynch one of (kuribo, charter) today instead of one of (myself, Vi).

In so doing, we auto-win if we get it right. Otherwise, assuming a GF (which I still think is most likely), we have to make this sort of lylo decision

twice

instead of once. Thoughts?

This suggestion struck me as a good idea at first, but the more I think about it, the less I like it. Lets say we do lynch either kuribo or charter and we get it right. What happens then, if we

are

in the Godfather C9 like you suggest, when that player flips scum goon? This will quickly render the cop useless because there is only a Godfather out there.

I guess what I'm getting at JDodge is that I can see you being right about the Godfather C9 because you have the inside info by in fact being the Godfather. You move to quickly counterclaim Vi and then pitch this idea under the premise that if we do lynch right out of kuribo/charter then I can investigate you or Vi and we can win tomorrow. All the while knowing that you would turn up innocent.

I think it's jdodge + kuribo. Gotta do some rereading before voting though.

Also, I was thinking. It might make sense not to lynch jdodge/vi today. If we nail scum today that isn't them (and assuming sche is cop) then it's an autowin tomorrow. Of course this excludes the scenario that it's jdodge/vi, which I find very possible.

I'm not surprised that charter is the only other player wanting this to happen. I am surprised that he didn't just come out and say we should lynch kuribo because if we don't lynch one of the two claimed docs then it would be between charter and kuribo. I noticed how he just kinda skips round that point. Maybe because advocating a lynch of the player I have an innocent on looks bad even despite all the talk of a Godfather.

Again, I am almost entirely certain that this is GF C9. Which means there is a cop. No counter-claim means Sche is a cop. Sche being a cop means he is not scum. Sche not being scum means that by lynching one of charter/kuribo, we have a 50/50 shot as a town of lynching the correct one. I protect Sche, you can't kill me because that would expose you anyways (meaning you have to kill whichever of charter/kuribo is town). Sche investigates one of us. We lynch according to Sche's investigation. Town wins automatically.

Again, if you are certain why are you not mentioning that we might lynch the mafia goon leaving the mafia godfather alive and rendering my investigation useless?

Also, I never said anything about there being a Vi-kuribo and JD-charter line. I said solely that there were two parallels - Vi-JD and kuribo-charter. I prefer lynching on the latter to lynching on the former at the moment.

So why is your vote still on Vi?

[Simenon]

Vote Count

Jdodge (1)- Vi
Vi (1)- Jdodge

[Vi]

Why did you feel the need to claim here Vi? You weren't under any real pressure that I can see and when I read it just struck me as strange. You say in your response to the JDodge quote that Moo shoulda just claimed because breadcrumbing at L-2 is pretty weak. Isn't claiming unprovked equally as strange?

It's LyLo and I'm a power role. That in itself is worth a claim. Further, if anyone counterclaims, then I've 100% found scum. Of course, if there is NOT a counterclaim, then either there is no Doc at all OR I'm telling the truth and above suspicion; and if it's the latter, then that basically seals who the scum are (well, that's what I thought before the Godfather C9 idea came up). Heads I win, tails you lose.

Thus it was a purely strategic move, not anything done in desperation. If anything, waiting until I was backed into a corner would

weaken

the truthiness of the Doc claim under these circumstances, IMO.

Also, welcome to the game!

[charter]

/prodded, reading and will post.

[charter]

I'm not terribly sure which of jdodge/vi is scum, I can see it both ways. I went back and looked posts and jdodge's vote for eld was a classic scum vote. I also think that kuribo is the other one, and jdodge has been distancing with him. Vi has just been way scummier to me, but I didn't look for a whole lot that connected him to kuribo.

However, I can't ignore the idea of lynching one of myself/kuribo today. If we get it right, it's an autowin assuming scum isn't jdodge/vi. I don't think this is the case, because while jdodge has suggested this, he seems content with not doing it and vi doesn't think it's a good idea at all.
I'm assuming Sche is the cop now, there is one setup with a 25% chance of having a doc but no cop, so I can't really assume that that is the case. Also,

Mod, is the miller told they are a miller?

Just to make sure, everyone who has a role has claimed, right? Anyone forgot to claim? I'd go back and check your role pm just to be sure. I'm a townie, just went and checked.

Also, I really do think it's the godfather setup. I can't imagine it being a setup with a mafia roleblocker and them not blocking the cop. If it's two goons, they should definately have tried killing the cop. If they fail, then it's still LYLO today with six instead of five, much easier for them to quicklynch in.

In conclusion, I'm thinking of voting kuribo, but I wanna look back over his posts too. I know there was the whole afatchic thing, I prolly should have listened to that yesterday... Anyone else's thoughts on lynching either myself or kuribo over jdodge/Vi?

[Simenon]

Also, Mod, is the miller told they are a miller?

Yes.

[Sotty7]

I really, really want to know what makes you so sure we should lynch kuribo at this point. Sure we could very well be in the Godfather C9 but I really can't see myself voting for the one guy I have an innocent on, when it is an issue we can deal with tomorrow if we get that far. Add onto the fact then when it comes to JDodge or Vi we know that one of these guys IS scum. Is it a hard choice, damn right it is, but it is a choice that gives us the best chance to win the game.

Voting for kuribo makes no sense to me at this point. It will take a damn good case to make me look away from the two claimed docs.

Damn good.

[kuribo]

Add onto the fact then when it comes to JDodge or Vi we know that one of these guys IS scum. Is it a hard choice, damn right it is, but it is a choice that gives us the best chance to win the game.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say.

[charter]

If we lynch kuribo, and he is godfather, then it's game over. Right there.
If we lynch jdodge/VI sucessfully today, then I assume you investigate me tonight and we then have to decide between myself/kuribo tomorrow.

Jdodge had it right before. For jdodge/Vi today might be an easy choice, but for you, me, and kuribo (if he isn't the GF) then we have to choose right today and tomorrow. Basically, we have to choose between charter/kuribo at some point, so there's no sense in trying to guess jdodge/vi as well.

I will go ahead and advocate my plan as well. If there's a quickhammer and we lose, I'm sorry, but I don't think that's going to be the case.

vote kuribo

[kuribo]

Basically, we have to choose between charter/kuribo at some point, so there's no sense in trying to guess jdodge/vi as well.

You're right, let's not choose between the two claimed docs.

This is terrible logic whose only purpose is to attempt to preserve himself.

[charter]

No. Say we lynch one of jdodge/Vi today. We get it right. Tomorrow we STILL have to choose between kuribo/charter.

All I'm doing is not deciding between jdodge/Vi. No sense in making it extra complicated, at least from my standpoint.

[kuribo]

No. Say we lynch one of jdodge/Vi today. We get it right. Tomorrow we STILL have to choose between kuribo/charter.

All I'm doing is not deciding between jdodge/Vi. No sense in making it extra complicated, at least from my standpoint.

Okay, suppose we lynch one of kuribo/charter today. We get it right. Tomorrow we STILL have to choose between jdodge/Vi.

[charter]

No. Sche investigates one of them tonight. He gets an innocent, then we know who not to lynch. He gets a guilty, we know who to lynch.