Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[Indigo Heron]

It disables Black the ability to castle, which in turn would be very dangerous for us. It also moves the Queen to safety.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The queen is under attack as of next move.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is this what you are hoping for?

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Qb3 d5
12. Bd3 O-O
13. O-O
*/chess tag removed*

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I

just

figured out the [/chess] command.... gg.

[Indigo Heron]

Not really, I wanted Be2 instead of Bd3, but you got the gist of it.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm sorry, man. I really screwed up this game. I've been going over the game over and over and wondering where we went wrong with this, but I have yet to see where it is we drew/lost this game. I'll keep searching.

I think it was when we moved Qe2 instead of Bc4. While we gained some temporary advantages, blocking in that bishop has only hurt us. Even now, we're still trying to figure out how to make effective use of it. There probably were a few other moves in there somewhere we screwed up, but I really haven't gone back to look at it. I don't think it's important now, but I bet that will come in handy if we need to start lynching.

Move Bd2

I think this is our best move. I still think d5 is strong...at least stronger than Be2 or Bd3, but it's riskier. There's a chance we simply lose that pawn for no gain.

Way too much emphasis is being put on castling. We don't need to move our white squared bishop to make way for the castle. Look at the board. Is our king any safer castled to the kingside? Not really. In retrospect I also agree that our king is not safe castled queen side (to whomever called me out on that). Our king is fine where he is for now. Let's stick with making moves that help us, not filler moves, or moves to facilitate castling, when castling is unimportant right now.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I think if we play this game type again (and I would certainly love to), it would be interesting to name a "mayor" for each day, a person that listens to all advice and eventually decides the move themselves... but anyway, I just think that I want more control.

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 d5
12. Qb3 O-O
13. O-O-O
*/chess tag removed*

Compared to the previous line I posted, this is much better. Although I still disagree with the focus on castling right now... black still doesn't have an obvious line of attack at this point, due to restrictive pawns at b4 and f5. This structure is beginning to look a lot like a draw to me. Anyways, I think the O-O-O is a stronger choice than the O-O, but if black's line of attack is likely to move queen side, then we shouldn't be so hasty.

But please... I

implore

you who are not mafia to consider moving 11. d5. This is a move

that will

work

. I don't want to go over all of the lines because I'm tired of giving black our next five moves.

[Goatrevolt]

*chess tag removed*]1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 d5
12. Qb3 O-O
13. Bxb4
*/chess tag removed*

Instead, try this for move 13. The entire point of Bd2 is to threaten the b4 pawn while developing our bishop. It keeps the pressure on black and prevents them from castling, not by slapping our queen down the diagonal, but by forcing them to defend their pieces.

[veerus]

The b4 pawn can be easily protected by a5 or Qb6. However, for the purposes of development, I suppose I could get behind Bd2 as long as we agree that castling queen-side is a BAD BAD idea and the f1 bishop will need to be developed sooner than later.

TCS, you're really tickling my spider sense right now. You propose risky and complicated moves and suicidal castling ideas. You don't want to go over lines because you know they're unneccesarily complicated and unsound. And what's with the draw talk?

[Goatrevolt]

The b4 pawn can be easily protected by a5 or Qb6.

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 a5
12. Ne5*/chess tag removed*

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 Qb6
12. c3*/chess tag removed*

I suppose I could get behind Bd2 as long as we agree that castling queen-side is a BAD BAD idea and the f1 bishop will need to be developed sooner than later.

I will agree to no such thing. Let's not lock ourselves into moves. Castling queenside looks bad right now, but might be more attractive later. I'm not seeing a pressing need to develop our f1 bishop, mainly because all of our "developing" moves require a loose interpretation of develop. Move it away from its starting spot? Yes. Have it do anything useful? No.

[Indigo Heron]

Well, I've gone over my proposed Qb3, and I have concluded that we'll most likely draw the game. Goatrevolt's Bd2 may lead us somewhere with it...at least in my PoV.

unmove, move: Bd2

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The b4 pawn can be easily protected by a5 or Qb6. However, for the purposes of development, I suppose I could get behind Bd2 as long as we agree that castling queen-side is a BAD BAD idea and the f1 bishop will need to be developed sooner than later.

TCS, you're really tickling my spider sense right now. You propose risky and complicated moves and suicidal castling ideas. You don't want to go over lines because you know they're unneccesarily complicated and unsound. And what's with the draw talk?

vote:veerus

I haven't proposed a single castling idea. That was me pointing out that the castle-first crowd is ignorant. I want to move to d5... this is not a complicated move, and will in most lines put us ahead a piece when we move d6... so forgive me if I don't want to "give it all away." People pretty much spelled out over and over again yesterday how bad it was to move the queen out, and we did it anyway, and scum took advantage. I'm going to point out strategy reasons and compelling lines that I think make other moves a bad plan... but I won't pursue too many lines in-depth at this point because it helps the scum more than the town.

The scum has the ability to make surprise moves... we can't. We cannot surprise the scum, because of the nature of discussion and debate. We can only make fundamentally sound moves. In Bd2, we are not making the fundamentally sound move, and we have not tried to make the fundamentally sound move the last couple of days, despite my insistence upon doing so.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I suppose those two things sounded somewhat contradictory... but there's a difference between trying to surprise scum with an attack and not wanting to give away five moves ahead in a particular line.

[veerus]

Is our queen under attack? -

no

. So why is it bad that our queen is where it is? It's safe with no chance of getting trapped and it's stopping black from castling.

If we move d5, black will answer with d6 and then our pawn will be LOST. Do YOU want to be down a pawn and in an inferior position?.. apparently so, if you're SCUM. And the fact that you're driving so hard at that makes me think that you ARE scum. You voting me for essentially wanting to keep our king SAFE is doubly so.

I know this is an omgus vote, but because you beat me to it by voting me with your next scummy post shouldn't stop me from doing what I wanted to do last post --

vote: TCS

[Indigo Heron]

Damn, man. I was kinda hoping that it would be peace-time for a little more.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is our queen under attack? -

no

. So why is it bad that our queen is where it is? It's safe with no chance of getting trapped and it's stopping black from castling.

If we move d5, black will answer with d6 and then our pawn will be LOST. Do YOU want to be down a pawn and in an inferior position?.. apparently so, if you're SCUM. And the fact that you're driving so hard at that makes me think that you ARE scum. You voting me for essentially wanting to keep our king SAFE is doubly so.

I know this is an omgus vote, but because you beat me to it by voting me with your next scummy post shouldn't stop me from doing what I wanted to do last post --

vote: TCS

12. Qxb4

[veerus]

Well, ok, d6 itself wouldn't neccesarily play out right away, but the point is that the pawn would be in no-man's land. For example, the bishop could occupy the d6 square just as easily. Or this:

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qb3 Bb7
*/chess tag removed*
Then how do you save it?

The point is.. black wouldn't let us get the pawn to d6, and on d5, the pawn would block the diagonal to where the king would be if black castled and we wouldn't be able to unblock it. And also, the pawn on d5 would be at the mercy of black after a similar sequence of moves to those shown above. It also opens up the a7-g1 diagonal for black making our castling options on the king-side look as dreary as those on the queen-side. We can not let that pawn go and lose it. If we do, we will forfeit whatever presense we have in the center of the board and lose the game.

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board. The fact that you are trying to suggest everything BUT trying to get the king to safety tells me that you may have alterior motives.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Well, ok, d6 itself wouldn't neccesarily play out right away, but the point is that the pawn would be in no-man's land. For example, the bishop could occupy the d6 square just as easily. Or this:

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qb3 Bb7
*/chess tag removed*
Then how do you save it?

The point is.. black wouldn't let us get the pawn to d6, and on d5, the pawn would block the diagonal to where the king would be if black castled and we wouldn't be able to unblock it. And also, the pawn on d5 would be at the mercy of black after a similar sequence of moves to those shown above. It also opens up the a7-g1 diagonal for black making our castling options on the king-side look as dreary as those on the queen-side. We can not let that pawn go and lose it. If we do, we will forfeit whatever presense we have in the center of the board and lose the game.

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board. The fact that you are trying to suggest everything BUT trying to get the king to safety tells me that you may have alterior motives.

12. Qd4

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ready to agree with me yet?

Do try to consider our

best

options when exploring lines.

[sirdanilot]

Stop voting. It's anti-white. (just wanted to use that phrase, sorry)

If you want to express suspicion, just FoS or something.

[veerus]

Qd4 is not a legal move nor would it save the d5 pawn.

[Goatrevolt]

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qb3 Bb7
*/chess tag removed*

Instead of 12. Qb3, do 12. Qd4.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qd4 d6
13. Qxd4
*/chess tag removed*

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board.

The only fundamental rules of chess involve piece movement. I used to lose games because I adhered to principles like this. I would waste moves facilitating castling when I didn't need to. I actually lost a few games because I castled my king into a less safe spot than the one he was already at.

Look at the board. Is our king in danger? Is he safer castled? Until a point where our king is in danger, or we need to get that rook in play, castling is unimportant.

I'll look into d5 more, but remember that black has more responses than just b5. I'm worried d5 is too complicated of a move. d5 is risky. I don't think risky is how we should be playing this game...not in a move-by-committee setup where black has the ability to manipulate our moves and has access to our discussion about which moves fail. I think we should continue to be aggressive, however, and I think Bd2 keeps pressure on.

[Pesco47]

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board.

You know how back-rank checkmates happen? When you over-prioritise castling and don't pay attention to the rest of the board. Right now castling sucks no matter which side we do it on, but I'd take queen side if we had to.

[veerus]

Goat, 12...d6 fails due to Qxb4. And 12. Qd4 does not prevent us from losing the pawn after 12...Bb7.

Is our king in danger? Is he safer castled? Until a point where our king is in danger, or we need to get that rook in play, castling is unimportant.

Yes, our king is MUCH safer castled. And due to our position beind under-developed, we may not have enough time to get him to safety when the king does come under pressure. But if you want to take that line of reasoning, our queen is not under attack either. Why is there such a push for d5 as a knee-jerk reaction to protect the queen from

future

attacks?

Pesco: Back-rank mates happen when you suck at chess and/or you're not paying attention. The odds of that mate happening in this game are 0 due to its structure. Besides, with the current pawn structure, a back-rank mate isn't even possible since the king can get off the back rank from the square it lands on after the castling.

I'll repeat again -- queenside castling would lead to a fiery doom. It is an open file for black who could put tremendous pressure on the king's position after moves like Qb7 and Rb8.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, 12...d6 fails due to Qxb4. And 12. Qd4 does not prevent us from losing the pawn after 12...Bb7.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qd4 Bb7
13. d6
*/chess tag removed*

Yes, our king is MUCH safer castled. And due to our position beind under-developed, we may not have enough time to get him to safety when the king does come under pressure.

This is meaningless without reasoning. How is our king safer castled? How does castling protect our king?

But if you want to take that line of reasoning, our queen is not under attack either. Why is there such a push for d5 as a knee-jerk reaction to protect the queen from future attacks?

The point isn't to protect out queen. It's to make it useful. It's the same reason you are arguing against Qb3. It sequesters our queen into the corner and removes its usefulness.

In other news, Bd2 will make our queen useful.