Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[Tuberkulos]

Yeah; I dislike Xtoxm's self-vote as well. I've seen pro-town people self vote for bad reasons too often lately to really consider it a scumtell anymore, but it's still an anti-town move.

Voting someone that you know is town, is anti-townish. Sure, voting yourself is a different thing but selfvotes doesn't provide us anything. They are either there to confuse us or to play the "martyr card".

[Tuberkulos]

[quote="Pathetric"}I understood Tuberk's vote at the time and it was the first thing I liked out of him. But Primate is probably town purely because he has 16 posts. Tuberk should vote Dahill instead. [/quote]

Why should I, specificaly, vote Dahill?

I skimmed through a little and tried to find out if there was any obvious reasons for why I should vote him and found none. Maybe it was just a joke since telling me who to vote was the reason for my vote on Assmaster?

Anyway, when I skimmed through dahill's posts, I must say that his reaction to Glork's "hammer" was very calm. Maybe it's just me but I would have reacted a little stronger if a hammer like that had occured.

[Pathetric]

I voted Dahill partially for sheeping on Yosarian with that odd pressure on Corio, and liked the vote even more when he sheeped on Glork--his vote for you was terrible. I've already noted his contradiction on his stance toward unexplained votes.

My advertisement wasn't a joke, though I admit skimmed your explanation pretty badly after seeing that it was indeed something about pushing the Xtoxmwagon. I didn't realize your dislike of Primate's remark wasn't based on the context: in general, I think selling wagons is a necessary way to move the game forward.

Apologetically,
-Ether

[Tuberkulos]

Fair enough. Selling wagons isn't a bad/scummy move per se, but I prefer when wagons tend to sell themselves.

I did by no means try to question your vote on Dahill by the way. It's seems fair, but I got the feeling that I specifically should vote him, since you said: "Tuberk should vote Dahill instead".

What did you think my reasons were for voting Assmaster?

[Glork]

I'm just mucking about, it's the random phase.

I think GLork's vote was pretty and opportunistic, I think he was hoping someone would hammer, with the fallback of "I was asking for it".

Unvote Vote Glork

VT btw.

I wouldn't be adversed to hammering someone on page 4.

A few things here.

First, you've already proven one of my earlier points. You put yourself at Lynch -2, and I pointed out that your self-vote wouldn't stay there very long. You questioned me, and I basically replied by saying "been there, seen it." After you continued to be argumentative over nothing, for no reason, I went ahead and put you at Lynch -1, at which point you very promptly removed your vote.

Secondly, you behaved in a deliberately outlandish manner and then jumped me as soon as you had successfully provoked me, which makes me wonder if you were trying to bait somebody into putting you at Lynch -1 so that you'd have a reason to jump them.

Thirdly, the odds of somebody hammering here were pretty slim. Six were voting for you. Based on past experience, I would have been absolutely floored if Pathetric, dahill, or Yos2 had hammered you. And as I already stated, I knew that if things got real, you'd remove your self-vote. So either Tube, Rally, or Erratus would have had to decided to hammer you before you had even posted (without permitting you to claim). Just because you play like a complete donkey doesn't mean that you should expect everyone else to do so.

Fourthly, I feel like there's a small contradiction in the two posts I quoted, but I'm not sure I'll be able to articulate it very well. You expressed that you were "just mucking about" in the random-phase, then go on to say that you personally could have seen yourself hammering somebody if you were in a position to do so. What gets me is that, if you're protown and you could see a player hammering on Page 4, then A) why is it so unreasonable to see a protown player put you at Lynch-1; and B) Why would you put yourself at Lynch-2 to begin with?

I really don't see any reasonable protown justification for the self-vote, especially when coupled with the fact that you were intentionally ignoring my questions (which I still expect you to answer). It seems to me that the much more reasonable explanation is what I mentioned earlier -- that you were trying to bait me by OMGUSing me after being deliberately :nothelpful:. It's like MBLscum, only not nearly as subtle or refined.


In other news, Tuber's recent posts have me feeling much, much better about him. I didn't like the contentless "useless four pages," but he seems to be rectifying that with real contribution.

[Rally Vincent]

Not liking Yos2's "contributions" so far.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

unvote
vote: Erratus Apathos

EA votes Yosarian for "not liking his 'contributions' ", but doesn't back it up. It just looks like some random activity to me until he finds a better target. I don't see anything wrong with Yosarian so far. Testing the waters with the alt question was also of interest for me. I'm curious in which way Coriolanus will react to a different subject in the future.

Glork's vote on Xtoxm also doesn't strike me as bad. I don't think anyone would have hammered Xtoxm at this early stage of Day 1, so this could hardly be called an attempt to get him lynched.

Xtoxm's self vote looks kinda fishy. I fail to see what the purpose could have been. The wagon on Xtoxm wasn't really threatening, it wasn't backed up with suspicions based on facts. So why would he vote himself to L-2? The only reason I can think of is to prevent someone else do it, thus hindering the gain of more information from it.

[Tuberkulos]

I had a similiar discussion about this in another game that I'm currently involved with. A guy got at L-2 quite early in the random face and started ranting about "scum could just waltz in and kill me". I didn't see that happen there, and I would be really suprised if I saw it happen here. However, putting someone at L-1 is always a tense moment (atleast for the person at L-1), of course much less so at an early stage.

Glork is an experienced player (please, let's not talk about alts again) and was definitely not trying to lynch Xtoxm. I read it as he voted Xtoxm because Xtoxm didn't answer his question and maybe also to make him unvote himself.

[Xtoxm]

Yeh, I also left my vote on for several hours just to prove you wrong on that front. I was here when you voted me. No one hammered though. I unvoted not to protect myself but because discussion had moved away from that and i'd found a good place to put my vote.

And for your other point, I could see you wanting to be the L-1 vote because that's not so "bad" as hammering. If anyone had hammered you had a nice excuse to fall back on, and someone to attack.

Patrick also looks kinda scummy.

[Xtoxm]

Yeh, I also left my vote on for several hours just to prove you wrong on that front. I was here when you voted me. No one hammered though. I unvoted not to protect myself but because discussion had moved away from that and i'd found a good place to put my vote.

And for your other point, I could see you wanting to be the L-1 vote because that's not so "bad" as hammering. If anyone had hammered you had a nice excuse to fall back on, and someone to attack.

Patrick also looks kinda scummy.

[Xtoxm]

Sigh. Silly CPU error.

[Tuberkulos]

I know that your post is directed to Glork, but I feel like giving my input on this.

Protecting oneself isn't necessarily bad, but you make it sound like something scummy to do. Personally I don't see your unvote as something scummy, your vote on yourself was however. Your refusal to answer a question is aswell something that I don't like.

Also, you are missing out on one huge point. Very rarely (I haven't experienced it but I guess it happens) will scum be dumb enough to hammer you for absolutely no (or poor) reasons at all.

Pathetric also looks kinda scummy.

Why?

unvote

[Pathetric]

I'd say the risk of a potential quicklynch was minimal, especially with Xtoxm having a vote on himself. I didn't even notice he'd claimed until Ether said so. Xtoxm, why so early? You weren't even at lynch-1 when you yook your own vote off, and like half of the wagon didn't even seem that serious.

Early vibes leaning town on Glork, Tuber and maybe Incognito. I'm a little leery of Yos2 but want to give that some more time, for now I'm surprised dahill didn't get more attention for his Tuber vote. It seems like his first reason was something he knows is pretty much invalid, and his second reason (failure to comment on Xtoxm) seems like it applies to two of three others as well.

Patrick.

[Assmaster]

Work do, so today is the not really do much day I promised myself I wouldn't take.

I did a reread of the thread and one thing that I do find to be slightly alarming is the fact that both Yosarian2 and dahill1 have mentioned at least once or twice now that they have issues with Coriolanus's reaction to being called an alt:
Yosarian2, in his 79, wrote:
Actually, no, I don't think that. The subject of "is Corio an alt or not", isn't all that relevent; but Corio's answers, his response, really seem strange to me here, and I think his posting here might be a very productive subject.


dahill1, in his 98, wrote:
again, yos pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. being an alt or not isn't that important, but him blowing up for us accusing him of being one does seem off.


...but neither one have gone forward and placed a formal FoS or vote on the guy as of yet.

Don't think this is a great suspicion reason. Also don't like the hand waving.

who, specifically, did you think would hammer?
cuz personally, i can't really see any scenario in which any of us would hammer

Dont think it's reasonable to do this.

There was a reason behind my vote. Why ask people to make a wagon on someone? I thought the whole point of wagons was that you watch and see who joins in by own force. Telling people to join a wagon just gives them an excuse to do so. A poor one yes, but stil an excuse. Hence my vote. Do not consider it too serious though. Anyone here could flip either way for me as it is right now.

It was to specifically get a reaction from you. I gave you an excuse to vote for someone with very little obvious repercussions and I wanted to see if you took it.

And people are leaving so bye.

[Incognito]

About this:

My position which Patrick cited in 104 wasn't strictly at ends with his. It was more about the feel of the Xtoxmwagon. There was never much basis behind it, far as I can tell; it was a "let's kick off the game" wagon when the game had already been kicked off perfectly adequately. Also, I think Xtoxm is the sort of person who's easier to read when left to his own devices.

At least from my perspective, I felt the wagon did have some merit. My vote on Xtoxm wasn't arbitrary nor random; I placed it on him for the reasons I listed because I remember reading a game whose name and number I can't remember where Porochaz page 1 voted Xtoxm claiming that Xtoxm was the SK. In a state of panic, Xtoxm (who really was an SK) ended up voting Porochaz claiming that Porochaz had to be some kind of a Mafia Daytime Rolecop to figure that information out and ended up outing himself as the SK. I wanted to see if something similar would work here where voting him and calling him obviously scum might get him to expose himself as some type of scum yet again. His OMGUS vote reaction to my own vote felt knee-jerkish to me, and I thought a wagon on him might be beneficial to drive some information out of him if he did happen to be scum here.

I, too, didn't notice the Vanilla claim as I didn't know what he meant by "VT btw". I'm still not entirely comfortable enough with his contribution so far to remove the vote as of yet. Xtoxm, I, too, would like to know why you claimed so early. You switched your vote to Glork thereby removing yourself from typical claim territory, so I'm curious to figure out your reasoning.

There was a reason behind my vote. Why ask people to make a wagon on someone? I thought the whole point of wagons was that you watch and see who joins in by own force. Telling people to join a wagon just gives them an excuse to do so. A poor one yes, but stil an excuse. Hence my vote. Do not consider it too serious though. Anyone here could flip either way for me as it is right now.

Interestingly, I actually expected a different reason behind your Assmaster vote aside from the one you've provided here. Does it bother you that I, too, asked people to wagon someone?

Don't think this is a great suspicion reason. Also don't like the hand waving.

What exactly do you think is wrong with my reasoning? Also, what do you mean by "hand waving"?

[Xtoxm]

Hand waving generally means an improper/incomplete explanation.

I usually claim by L-2, and way it was going I could see I was always going to end up claiming today anyway. I just felt like it.

[Coriolanus]

dahill basically is a sheep. to yos, and then to glork, with me and tuber respectively. he hasn't added a single thing to this game so far. at least glork and yos have given up the "alt" crap, but dahill still seems content with sticking on it. he also has his facts (not surprisingly) terribly wrong. i told glork that i wasn't an alt. the discussion could have ended there. but glork decided on picking it back up by telling me he didn't believe me. so yes, i am just as much to blame for perpetuating this conversation as your are. and currently, you are the one who is perpetuating it. what a shock.

the xtoxm wagon has been deflated, which is fine, because while i don't know him he seems harmless to me, and someone won't yield any information unless he's lynched. if he is scum, he'll be easily taken care of later. dahill is currently the most promising new wagon.

Unvote Vote dahill

[Coriolanus]

actually, dahill, if you had bothered to do your research (you didn't), you would find that it was actually you and ether who kept the conversation going.

[Tuberkulos]

Interestingly, I actually expected a different reason behind your Assmaster vote aside from the one you've provided here. Does it bother you that I, too, asked people to wagon someone?

If you are trying to put me in a bad light here, you must allow to write "Ha ha ha". I think it was pretty obvious that you were not serious. Or were you?

Quick everyone! Wagon Xtoxm!

I couldn't take this as anything else than a joke.

[Glork]

if he is scum, he'll be easily taken care of later.

MAJOR FoS: Coriolanus

[Incognito]

Tuberkulos, it wasn't my intent to put you in a bad light, no. I thought there might have been a slight inconsistency in what you were saying, but I just looked back at the Assmaster-post you were referring to and could see the difference in both mine and his posts. I didn't even realize he directly asked for you to place your vote on Xtoxm until I looked back just now.

[dahill1]

for voting assmaster with seemingly no reason,

and i found it strange (scummy strange) that he didn't even really comment on xtoxm.

Terrible.

meh. i was merely citing it as one of the opposing viewpoints to the situation. i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

Anyway, when I skimmed through dahill's posts, I
must say that his reaction to Glork's "hammer" was very calm. Maybe it's just me but I would have reacted a little stronger if a hammer like that had occured.

what'd you want me to do type in caps?

I voted Dahill partially for sheeping on Yosarian with that odd pressure on Corio, and liked the vote even more when he sheeped on Glork--his vote for you was terrible. I've already noted his contradiction on his stance toward unexplained votes.

i don't see how agreeing with others' cases is a bad thing

:words:

again, i happened to agree with both yos and glork on the respective matters. and if

you'd

read, you would have noticed that i dropped the issue of you being an alt or not a long time ago. i had moved on to your strange reaction of these alt accusations, but not to you being an alt.
on that note, i'm just gonna drop the "reaction to being called an alt" thing for now since it doesn't seem to be telling.

and wait xtoxm, claimed? when/where?

[Coriolanus]

on that note, i'm just gonna drop the "reaction to being called an alt" thing for now since it doesn't seem to be telling.

hahahahahahahaha

[Pathetric]

meh. i was merely citing it as one of the opposing viewpoints to the situation. i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

The first part I can possibly see, but I'm confused by the last sentence; if you don't consider it telling of any particular alignment, why did you use it as a reason to vote Tuber? Am I missing something?

i don't see how agreeing with others' cases is a bad thing

It's not merely about agreement but more that I don't like your stances in either case. The Tuber vote I don't see either of the reasons as any good and I could see it as a move to follow a little momentum, and the Corio thing seems very meh.

and wait xtoxm, claimed? when/where?

Xtoxm claimed vanilla townie in Post 117. Any thoughts on that?

Patrick.

[dahill1]

meh. i was merely citing it as one of the opposing viewpoints to the situation. i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

The first part I can possibly see, but I'm confused by the last sentence; if you don't consider it telling of any particular alignment, why did you use it as a reason to vote Tuber? Am I missing something?

i was referring to using info outside of mafia games, not tuber

and wait xtoxm, claimed? when/where?

Xtoxm claimed vanilla townie in Post 117. Any thoughts on that?

Patrick.[/quote]
i would be 100% down for lynching xtoxm except for one thing. he has done stuff like this before in games, as town. i wouldn't put against him to be lying, even if he's town.

[dahill1]

EBWOP:

meh. i was merely citing it as one of the opposing viewpoints to the situation. i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

The first part I can possibly see, but I'm confused by the last sentence; if you don't consider it telling of any particular alignment, why did you use it as a reason to vote Tuber? Am I missing something?

i was referring to using info outside of mafia games, not tuber

and wait xtoxm, claimed? when/where?

Xtoxm claimed vanilla townie in Post 117. Any thoughts on that?

Patrick.

i would be 100% down for lynching xtoxm except for one thing. he has done stuff like this before in games, as town. i wouldn't put against him to be lying, even if he's town.