Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[Yosarian2]

Vote:Incognito

.

vote Yos

for manipulating me IRL.

[jedimindtrick]You don't want to vote me. You want to vote someone else. [/jedimindtrick]

[Yosarian2]

FoS: Yos

Only scum want to trick the town.

Shh. I'm trying to manipulate dahill here.

Also, hi ether. Just wondering; why'd you make an alt and then tell us who you were in like your first post?

[Yosarian2]

She's doubleheading with Patrick.

Ah, cool.

[Yosarian2]

I would be curious to know where Coriolanus learned about Glork and not the rest of us.

this.
corio definitely seems to know glork in some way, but i guess that's kinda beside the point.

no clue what the evidence for this is. if i had replaced "glork" with "dahill", what difference would it have made?

Um...you pretty clearly knew Glork was one of the most experenced players in the game, from this comment.

considering the player list, i'm disappointed by the lack of glork death. apparently experience doesn't count for much.

I'm not really sure why you're getting so defensive about this, either.

[Yosarian2]

Darn simulposts.

[Yosarian2]

yossarian, that comment does not convey in any way that glork is an experienced player, and even if it did, i posted my reasoning for why anyone would be able to determine it.

(nods) That was why I said "darn simulpost"; it means, I didn't see the post you made 3 minutes before when I was making my post.

i want fucking evidence.

I think the emotion conveyed in this sentance is pretty strong evidence all ready that you're reacting pretty strongly to this whole thing; if you didn't care, you probably wouldn't be swearing at me. Not to mention the way you were arguing with Glork over it for about 5 posts; interestingly, you continued to argue it without ever actually denying you are an alt, and honestly that, plus your obvious mafia experence, pretty much confirms it it my mind.

Again, it dosn't matter that much, although it is useful information for the town to have I think. I'm just wondering why you're reacting so strongly here.

[Yosarian2]

At least Yosarian admitted that this probably wasn't the most productive subject.

Actually, no, I don't think that. The subject of "is Corio an alt or not", isn't all that relevent; but Corio's answers, his response, really seem strange to me here, and I think his posting here might be a very productive subject.

[Yosarian2]

I have no idea what Yos is trying to achieve with this. It seems like he's trying to argue Coro into admitting he is an alt, which I don't think has any relevance to whether he's scum or not.

Well...it's a useful thing to know, and especally if he says whose alt he is I suspect I'll have a much easier time reading him, for meta reasons and such (there are a few players from which I wouldn't find this kind of over-reaction to be a scum tell, for example.)

But, mostly, I just think it's odd the way he's reacting. I think his initial "why isn't Glork dead yet" post was really odd, and I'm trying to figure out what he's thinking right now. I care less about if he is an alt then about why he's reacting this way to Glork speculating he's an alt; , the overly hostile reaction to what looks to me to be logical speculation on Glork's part seems kind of scummy to me.

[Yosarian2]

Now that was a waste of four pages.

Why, are we going to run out or something?

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2 and dahill1, do you find Coriolanus's reaction to be scummy-interesting or some other type of interesting?

Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out. My natural reaction is to be suspicious of someone who reacts like that, although as Ether pointed out there are other possible reasons for it.

Also, a lot depends on if I'm dealing with an experenced mafia player or a true newbie; reactions are different. Glork asked him that question earlier of if he'd played on a different forum, and he hasn't answered it yet.

Why have neither of you gone forward and actually voted for him as of yet?

(shrug) Haven't decided yet if his play is scummy or not, I suppose.

[Yosarian2]

Ah; he did answer the one question, he said he's played over at conquerclub . Ok, my mistake.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; I dislike Xtoxm's self-vote as well. I've seen pro-town people self vote for bad reasons too often lately to really consider it a scumtell anymore, but it's still an anti-town move.

[Yosarian2]

Not liking Yos2's "contributions" so far.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

This is the sum total of your "contributions" so far.

Vote: xtoxm

FoS: Glork

How do you know Yos isn't tricking scum?

Trust me, an octopus would be FoSing Yos, too.

Octopuses don't have fingers. Lynch the liar!

Unvote
Vote: Glork

Random vote, pointless questions, joke vote.

I'm doing my best to discuss an actual game relevent issue here, and to use pressure to try to get moving. You have done nothing. What, exactally, do you have against my "contributions"?

[Yosarian2]

Yuck...xtoxm claimed vanillia? WTF?

Xtoxm, what the heck are you doing this game? So far you've self-voted and claimed vanillia on day 1 with no reasoning very early. Do I need to explain how anti-town either of those actions are?

On a side note,

unvote:incognito

; it was a random vote, and Incog's actions so far give me pro-town vibes, so I don't want to keep it on. If I was going to vote now, it'd probably be for xtoxm, but I think I'll hold off for the moment.

[Yosarian2]

You could end this paragraph with "I'm chainsaw-defending Yos2!" in bold red using the largest font and it wouldn't be much more obvious than it already is.

FOS:Erratus Apathos

You gave a vote for a bad reason. He voted you for it. "Oh, he's just doing a chainsaw defense of Yos2" is a really weak defense on your part, especally considering that I was in absolutly zero danger since no one else even thought me suspicious.

And your "that was just the random phase" defense is bad as well. Yes, it's ok to joke and fool around early in the game, I've got no problem with that. But if all you've done so far is joking and fooling around, and I've actually discussing game-relevent issues, you really don't have any grounds to attack my "contrabutions" as "unhelpful in finding scum" or whatever.

What, exactally, do you have against my "contributions"?

I can't see how they lead to finding scum.

(shrug) If someone does something that looks like an over-reaction to me, my natural reaction is to put more pressure on that nerve and see what happens, especally early in the game when I'm just trying to get something going. You really don't see how that can lead to finding scum?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, the whole "chainsaw defense" thing is way overused. If you use it at all, you should use it when you already have caught and lynched one scum, then it might be worthwhile going back and seeing who tried to prevent the lynch, using several different possible methods, including the "chainsaw defense". But many attacks in mafia are always going to be based off someone else thinking your vote was scummy; you can't always just say "You're trying to chainsaw defense!!!"

[Yosarian2]

Yuck...xtoxm claimed vanillia? WTF?

Xtoxm, what the heck are you doing this game? So far you've self-voted and claimed vanillia on day 1 with no reasoning very early. Do I need to explain how anti-town either of those actions are?

On a side note,

unvote:incognito

; it was a random vote, and Incog's actions so far give me pro-town vibes, so I don't want to keep it on. If I was going to vote now, it'd probably be for xtoxm, but I think I'll hold off for the moment.

Sounds like someone knows i'm town.

...

I clearly didn't say anything like that, at all; I said your actions were incredibly anti-town (and implied that they were also incredibly stupid), and made it clear I was getting frustrated by them.

However, this post isn't just anti-town. It's you manipulating my words, trying to make it sound like I said something I didn't, in order to create the illusion that you are pro-town. That's not just anti-town, that's activlly scummy.

Vote:Xtoxm

[Yosarian2]

The people i'm calling scummy are all voting me...

Um, that's because you call anyone who suspects you scummy.

Anyway, you going to actually answer my point and explain yourself, or would you rather just get lynched and die? Either one works for me.

[Yosarian2]

the new xtoxm wagon is made up of stupid.

Why is that?

Also, what "new" xtoxm wagon?

[Yosarian2]

Whatever, lynch me if you want. I'm town.

...so, you're really going to totally refuse to explain what you were talking about, even if it means your lynch?

You realize that that's just incredibly bad play no matter what your alignment is, right?

[Yosarian2]

Also, what "new" xtoxm wagon?

this newest one, that came after the last.

Meh. There really isn't a "new" Xtoxm wagon, it's the same wagon that's been on him since he self-voted and claimed vanillia town for no reason. As I pointed out, I was right on the verge of voting Xtoxm anyway, and his last post pushed it over the edge.

[Yosarian2]

...Yos2's response and vote is full of hyperbole. I don't see the manipulation in Xtoxm's post that he claims too at all, and dahill's vote just looks like opportunism.

Well, I'd really like Xtoxm to explain what he was talking about there. His "Yos thinks I'm town" post, which he is absolutly refusing to explain, dosn't make any sense at all from what I had just said about him, and it just seemed scummy.

Of course, that's not the only reason I'm voting him. Not long before, I said:

If I was going to vote now, it'd probably be for xtoxm, but I think I'll hold off for the moment.

And you didn't have a problem with me when I said that. The only reason I didn't vote him was because I thought he was close to a lynch due to all the "lynch -2" talk, although he really was only at 3 votes out of 7.

As for dahill...I haven't played much forum mafia with him, but from my recollection of how he played in person at Starkadium, my impression is that he tends to follow people he thinks are "good players" a lot, irrespective of alignment. Glork and Ether will probably both agree with me about his in person play. I'm not sure if that's his forum mafia meta as well, though; anyone play with him recently in a forum game?

[Yosarian2]

I think Xtoxm is town

Why?

I don't understand why everyone always blows up when someone self-votes. I don't even remember the last time I saw scum do it when it wasn't a hammer to end the day short.

Yeah, that was why I said it was "anti-town but not really scummy". Claiming vanillia for no bloody reason, though, is INCREDIBLY anti-town, and on day 1 that by itself is almost enough reason to lynch someone (because they claimed vanillia, which a scum would do but a townie should never do; and because it's a safe lynch; and because it limits the number of day 1 claims). Combined with the other scummy behavior, and his refusal to answer simple questions, he really seems like the lynch at this point to me.

[Yosarian2]

how could that possibly be a good reason to lynch him?

Um, I just gave 3 reasons why him claiming vanilla for no reason is a good reason to lynch him. Town should never claim vanillia, at all, but scum tend to want to claim vanillia, so it's a scum tell. Plus, he's a safe lynch now that he's a claimed vanillia (he's either a vanillia or a scum), and if he gets lynched no one else has to claim, which protects the power roles.

Still, none of that is by itself quite enough reason to lynch him by itself, although it's close. I'm still waiting for him to explain himself about that one scummy post, though; that one really pushed it over the edge for me, unless he can explain what it was he meant.

[Yosarian2]

Plus, he's a safe lynch now that he's a claimed vanillia (he's either a vanillia or a scum), and if he gets lynched no one else has to claim, which protects the power roles.

exactly why i think he shouldn't be lynched today (although when i tried to verbalize that before glork shit his pretty little panties). he's got absolutely no information benefit; he's a sinkhole.

How so? Pretty much everyone has commented on him by now and said if they think he's town or if they think he's scum. If he gets lynched, then when we find out his alignment, we get information based on all of that, based on who was right and who was wrong and for what reasons. What we don't get is extra claims, and that's a good thing.

[Yosarian2]

Scum tend to want to claim vanilla? Your experience must be very different to mine. On the contrary, I see lots of townies carelessly claiming vanilla because they don't think their role is especially important; it's poor play but I don't see how that translates to scummy, and in my experience scum prefer to wait until a claim is explicitly forced out of them.

Hmmm...interesting.

I was talking in terms of motivation, that scum have a reason to want to claim vanillia townie and town don't; you are right, though, that in practice town probably carelessly claim vanillia as much as scum do.

Still, I would really rather hear Xtoxm explain

1. Why he decided to claim

and

2. What he was talking about when he said he thought I "knew he was pro-town"

rather then hear everyone else in the game defend him before he even bothers to defend himself.

[Yosarian2]

I will say that in spite of Yos's known "claimed vanilla townies should die" theory (something with which I still disagree, by the way), I dislike his "safe lynch" comment regarding Xtoxm. It feels like an underhanded way of trying to get fence-sitters to just finish him off.

I know a lot of people hate the whole "safe lynch" concept, but it really is true and valid in this case.

I should make clear, since lots of people seem to be misunderstanding this, that I'm not actually pushing for an instant speedlynch of Xtoxm or whatever; I mean, the game is only, what, 5 days old? We do need to put pressure on him until he starts making sense, though, and I find it frustrating that so many people are making it so hard for me to do that by everyone in the game suddenly jumping to his defense here.

[Yosarian2]

Well the point I'm getting that is that the point of a "safe lynch" in no way makes him any more likely to be scum, which should be far and away the primary reason somebody votes to lynch.

No, it dosn't, which is why I specifically said that it's not enough reason on it's own to want to vote him; however, it is a strong supporting reason.

[Yosarian2]

No, it's not a strong supporting reason. It is a terrible one.

Tell me, all else being equal, which is better for the town; a day 1 where one guy claims vanillia and then gets lynched, or a day 1 where 4 people claim? In which scenerio are town power roles more likely to live long enough to help the town?

[Yosarian2]

Yos is scummy because his post is directed at someone he either knows or believes to be town, he expresses anndoyance at the fact i'm town and claimed my role, rather than finding me suspicious for it (which later changes to once he realises his mistake).

I've asked you to explain this 3 times now, and you haven't yet. What in my post gave you the idea I thought you were town?

I have already explained why I claimed, perhaps someone isn't reading the thread thoroughly?

You put yourself at lynch -2, then claimed because you were at lynch -2. What on earth made you think that was a good idea? And why would you claim vanillia townie just because you were at lynch -2 anyway, how is that ever a good idea?

[Yosarian2]

I'm assuming this wasn't in reference to me?

No. It was in reference to Glork and Yos. I didn't mean everyone voting me too.

...both of whom you only "suspected" because we were already suspecting you. And then you wonder why "everyone who you suspect is voting for you?"

[Yosarian2]

Lol @ primate

SO, why the FOS? I don't see it, but then again both Ether and Patrick usually tend to look town to me.

[Yosarian2]

Pathetric: Want to explain why you think I'm scummy? You've said so like 5 times, but the only thing you've actually commented on about my play was my vote for Xtoxm, and even there you all you said was that you thought I was "streaching it" (which I really doubt; Xtoxm really just looks like a scum flailing around here to me) or that you didn't agree with me that scum want to claim vanillia townie (which, again, I don't get; isn't it obvious why scum "should" want to claim vanillia?)

And everyone's jumping all over me for my general stratagy comments; I don't get that, either. If someone gets pressured to a claim, and they claim vanillia, you generally want lynch them unless you've got a really good reason not to do so, and no one has given me any good reason to think Xtoxm is pro-town (certanly Xtoxm hasn't.) You don't want to then, after the vanillia claim, pull the bandwagon apart and pressure someone else to a claim; not unless you're scum who's trying to find the power roles, anyway. You could argue that Xtoxm wasn't really "pressured to a claim", but then again in his own words his only justification for a vanillia claim were that he was at lynch -2.

[Yosarian2]

I don't like your response to Erratus Apathos voting you, quoting a few posts made by him in the random stage seems kind of cheap and just designed to make him look bad. I still fail to see why someone who's been pretty inactive apparently isn't allowed to critisise the contributions of an active player, in fact I can't really think how else they'd get into the game. Part of me still thinks there must be some basic misunderstanding on my part of the position you and Glork are putting forward here, because it seems ridiculous to me.

Basically, the argument EA made against me wasn't that my actions hurt the town; it was that he thought my actions weren't that helpful in finding scum (basically, that my posts had a low expected value to the town).

Now, that would be a reasonable argument if we were talking about a long period of time; if I spent most of day 1 doing posts that had a low expected value to the town instead of doing "real" scumhunting; then, one could make a valid argument that I wasn't being as pro-town as a townie should be, or something like that. However, if I'm doing something with a low expected value, while he (and most of the town; I wasn't really trying to single him out there) had only posts that basically had zero value, I would think it would invalidate that attack.

Or, to put it another way, "Yos is doing X instead of scumhunting" isn't a valid attack if no one else is really scumhunting yet either.

Already commented on your Xtoxm-vote. Not sure what else to say; if Xtoxm is town (which I personally give about an average chance, my other head gives a high chance), he's an easy target for scum, because he's played pretty sloppily, claimed too early, self voted, asked to be lynched, all kind of stuff that often gets you negative attention whether it's scummy or not.

I hate this kind of argument, personally. It's not just "stuff that gets you negitive attention". it's stuff that SHOULD get you negitive attention, because it's anti-town behavior.

Besides which, when he self voted, I actually kind of defended him, pointing out that self voting wasn't actually a reliable scumtell (even though it should be, but that's a different argument). I only voted him when he started acting really scummy.

You joined the wagon on him for reasons I find unconvincing.

Ok, let me explain again why I think he's scum.

First, he basically did nothing for the first 4 pages, not reacting to anything until he felt himself in danger.

I think he first felt himself to possibly be in danger here:

Now that was a waste of four pages.

You should put your vote on Xtoxm. -2 to lynch always kicks the game up a notch.

Dibs on the hammah.

His response was the self vote.

Allow me

Unvote Vote Xtoxm

Could be a townie who was just playing around, but considering his later statement that

I wouldn't be adversed to hammering someone on page 4.

I don't really think he was. I think he was intentioanlly trying to deter people from voting him using a self vote, and that is scummy.

Glork responds to this by voting him, and putting him at -1 (which is the correct response to that kind of gambit, IMHO.)

Xtoxm then responds with an OMGUS vote on Glork, and he also, pointlessly, claims vanillia townie. He does this in an oddly subtle and nonchalant way (so subtle I didn't even notice it at first); if a real vanillia townie felt forced to claim, I'd expect him to actually claim in a clear way. Well, here, look at the post again.

I'm just mucking about, it's the random phase.

I think GLork's vote was pretty and opportunistic, I think he was hoping someone would hammer, with the fallback of "I was asking for it".

Unvote Vote Glork

VT btw.

This post bothers me in several different ways. If Xtoxm really thought he was in danger of being hammered here, why didn't he unvote before this post? At least if, as he later claimed:

Yeh, I also left my vote on for several hours just to prove you wrong on that front. I was here when you voted me. No one hammered though. I unvoted not to protect myself but because discussion had moved away from that and i'd found a good place to put my vote.

Why wouldn't he unvote himself during those "Several hours", if he really thought there was a risk someone would hammer? And if he knew there wasn't, why did he think Glork didn't know that? Did he think Glork was a moron or something?

And, like I said, the whole "VT btw" thing seems unbelievably non-chalant. If you think you are in danger of being lynched and feel you need to claim to try and prevent that, or to give the town needed information, or something, why would you do it like this? It just dosn't feel honest, feels more like he's trying to play a role of a cool, relaxed townie, if you know what I mean.

Finally, his response to me expressing dislike about his vanillia claim and me expressing a willingness to vote for me was, again, OMGUS, just like his response to Glork was. In what I can only assume is a delibrate misrepresentation of my post (I have to assume that, since he has steadfastedly refused to explain himself, even on threat of being lynched), he acted like my expression of frustration at his anti-town actions was somehow evidecne that I "knew he was town", or something. He then made this misleading statement:

The people i'm calling scummy are all voting me...

Even though the two people he's talking about, me and Glork, are both people he ONLY suspected AFTER they had attacked him.

Finally, he's basically done nothing to even try to help the town. None of his posts look like an honest attempt to find scum to me. He refuses to answer questions (with a useless response of "Fine, lynch me if you want, I'm town"), he acts in an anti-town way on several occasions, and he's just generally not being helpful.

Why is it I have to explain all of this, Patrick? What in his posts made you think he has only an "average chance" of being scum?

[Yosarian2]

I think he was intentioanlly trying to deter people from voting him using a self vote, and that is scummy.

i agree with the first conclusion, but i don't follow the second. please explain this.

Well...that kind of thing is basically a scum tactic, in my mind. Town who think they are in danger are more likely to meet their attackers head on, to demand to know why they are being voted, because they know that they are town and that anyone who suspects them is either wrong or scum, and either way they want to hear reasons.

Scum, on the other hand, are more likely to use mind games, emotions, and manipulative tricks (like this one) to avoid bandwagons, because they know the people voting for them are right, and so they really don't want to hear the reasons for them, they just want the wagons to go away. Scum tend to be less confident of their ability to honestly defend themselves against wagons.

you later on make a point about playing a "cool" townie. how is this at all consistent with his self-vote? that is a massively risky move for townie or scum, if it was deliberate, as you claim.

Hmm. Well...it's not easy to explain, exactally, it just seems like a put-on. Like he was trying too hard to look like "Hey, I'm just a vanillia townie, I've got nothing to hide"; whereas I don't think a real vanillia townie who was under enough pressure to feel he had claim would play like that.

Even though the two people he's talking about, me and Glork, are both people he ONLY suspected AFTER they had attacked him.

again i agree, and again i'm puzzled as to why this is scummy.

Eh...in his post, I thought he was trying to make it sound like people were attacking him because he thought they were scummy, when actually the opposite was true. It seemed like he was trying to make himself look like the victim; again, another manipulative, scummy trick, IMHO.

[Yosarian2]

How do you figure? Shouldn't anyone, regardless of alignment, want to get votes off themselves?

Of course, but scum are more likely to feel the need to use manipulative tactics like to do so.

Also, dosn't that question pretty much directly contradict what you say right here?

I don't think that scum would do that to self vote. You know that if you self vote in such a situation (where you're under actual suspicion with a legitimate case building against you) that you're just going to increase that suspicion with a self vote. I think scum are less inclined to do so.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian is okay, but kinda stuck with Xtoxm.

How is this a bad thing? If I think the Xtoxm wagon is good, I'll focus on that. Esepecally since I don't think much of the other two wagons.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't say it is a bad thing. I just think that you focus too much on Xtoxm, even as he isn't willing to defend himself any further. Either we lynch him or not, but for now he is dealt with. We could still use the remaining time for other things.

So...you would focus

less

on someone because they're refusing to defend themselves?

That dosn't make sense. You focus more and more on them, until they start defending themselves and making sense.

[Yosarian2]

Xtoxm, who is your number 2 suspect besides glork?

Yos. They're pretty much on level pegging, actually. My 3rd i'm not so sure about. I'd have no qualm with Dah at this point.

Patrick:

Yeh, my last 3 posts had little direct game relevance. So? Do you have a problem with that? I asked when deadline was because I wanted to know.

And i'll have you know I put a great deal of thought into my games. Most of my games, anyway.

So, why have you still refused to defend yourself, or answer my question, or respond to any of the points against you? Do you think you can just accuse the people who suspect you of being scum and that means you don't have to respond to their accusations?

[Yosarian2]

I have nothing to defend against.

Um...how about all the reasons I gave for suspecting you?

1. You need to explain why you thought i was "assuming you were town" or whatever, when my post pretty clearly said nothing of the sort

2. You need to explain the contradiction between your claim that you knew no one would hammer you, and your logic that Glork was scummy because he thought someone would hammer you when he put you at -1.

It might also help your if you explain why on earth you thought it was a good idea to claim vanillia just because you were at -2, or give us some kind of reason why we might not want to lynch you. Or, heck, make a rational argument for why you think Glork is scum. If you want to live, you need to do something useful.

[Yosarian2]

So Yos either isn't reading, or is just plain BSing. I might change my vote if he continues...

Um....wtf are you talking about?

No. All have been previously addressed.

No, they clearly have not. The closest you came was to repeat your initial point and say again:

Yos is scummy because his post is directed at someone he either knows or believes to be town, he expresses anndoyance at the fact i'm town and claimed my role, rather than finding me suspicious for it (which later changes to once he realises his mistake).

While constantly ignoring my ACTUAL question, which was WHY, and HOW, you could have ever game to the false conclusion that I "either knew or believed" that you were town. I certanly never said anything of the sort.

I don't know why so many other people in this game seem to be giving you a pass and letting you get away with just ignoring everything I say to you, but I will not.

[Yosarian2]

That last bit implies you know xtoxm is town.

No, it doesn't. However, Yos slipped up earlier.

Look, for the last bloody time, tell me how you could possibly have interpreted my post that way. Because every time you keep repeating that and you keep not explaining yourself, I become more and more convinced you're scum who's trying to BS your way out of trouble.

[Yosarian2]

Yos is scummy because his post is directed at someone he either knows or believes to be town, he expresses anndoyance at the fact i'm town and claimed my role, rather than finding me suspicious for it (which later changes to once he realises his mistake).

EXPLAIN HOW WHAT I SAID MADE YOU THINK I "EITHER KNOW OR BELIEVE" YOU ARE TOWN. DON'T KEEP REPEATING THE SAME GARBAGE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, EXPLAIN WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

[Yosarian2]

I didn't say it is a bad thing. I just think that you focus too much on Xtoxm, even as he isn't willing to defend himself any further. Either we lynch him or not, but for now he is dealt with. We could still use the remaining time for other things.

So...you would focus

less

on someone because they're refusing to defend themselves?

That dosn't make sense. You focus more and more on them, until they start defending themselves and making sense.

If he refuses to defend himself again and again, you won't get anything out of him, no matter how much you poke him. If you deal with him almost exclusively, you neglect the other players. The outcome of Xtoxm will not change. Either we lynch him or not. I know Xtoxm's attitude isn't helpful, but what do you expect to get out of him?

Bull. 99% of the time, if the town as a whole refuses to accept a certain behavior from a certain player, and the town makes clear that that person will die if he dosn't improve his behavior, the behavior changes.

Of course, so long as you and others keep defending him and keep accepting that kind of behavior from him, he has less reason to change.

[Yosarian2]

I'm actually getting a bit wavery on Xtoxm now, too...I'm painfully aware that only a small part of my read on him is based on his own behavior. But his wagon still gives me a bad feeling, and I still definitely dislike Dahill, so, meh. The impending deadline is actually a bit of a relief to me.

A question to Incognito, Glork, Yosarian2, Erratus Apathos, Rally Vincent, probably some other people I'm forgetting:
Are you in fact aware of the full case against Dahill? What do you think of the contrast between this and this?

Could you explain what you mean?

Like I said, based on meta, I don't really think sheeping is inherently a scumtell coming from Dahill, and I don't have a problem with him following me on Xtoxm. I don't really have a read on Dahill yet, I could equally see him doing everything he's done so far as either town or as scum. If there's more to the case then that, I'd be interested to hear it.

[Yosarian2]

He posted an excuse, but it's pretty obviously bullshit, considering the context of the second quote. I'm taken aback by the number of people who dismiss Dahill's scumminess without acknowledging this contradiction at all...the way that you

quoted me drawing attention to it

and then reiterated how you're okay with his sheeping. I accept that sheeping is in-character for Dahill, but it's not what I'm talking about. I hate his Xtoxmvote and I hate this.

Ahhh...ok, I see it now. You think there's a contradiction between his vote here and the stratagy he endorsed in MD. That's a very interesting point.

Dahill, do you have an explination for this? What is your general opinion about someone voting without giving a reason?

[Yosarian2]

I don't much like RV's last post. Firstly, I have provided better suspects, Glork and Yos.

And yet, you refuse to answer these questions:

Um...how about all the reasons I gave for suspecting you?

1. You need to explain why you thought i was "assuming you were town" or whatever, when my post pretty clearly said nothing of the sort

2. You need to explain the contradiction between your claim that you knew no one would hammer you, and your logic that Glork was scummy because he thought someone would hammer you when he put you at -1.

You claim to suspect me and Glork, but you refuse to actually explain the reasons you gave for those suspicions; and, as it stands now, the reason you gave for suspecting me seems to have nothing to do with anything I've said, and the reason you gave for suspecting Glork seems to contradict what you've claimed as your own thought process. Basically, I don't believe either of them is an honest suspicion, you're giving every sign of a scum who's trying to fake a suspicion on someone, and you refuse to explain farther, probably because you can not.

Frankly, Patrick/Ether, I'd agree with you about Glork being suspicious, except I don't think Glork is likely to be scum with Xtoxm, and Xtoxm is looking far more suspicious ATM.

[Yosarian2]

I don't really see a problem with Glork's hammer, personally. If you're not going to be around before deadline, better to drop the hammer then to not.

[Yosarian2]

I don't really see a problem with Glork's hammer, personally. If you're not going to be around before deadline, better to drop the hammer then to not.

This seems odd since it's not really the hammer in and of itself that I have an issue with. I wasn't even

completely

suspicious of Glork until he began responding to my questions in the manner he did today. I have more of an issue with the fact that Assmaster could have had an opportunity to get at least a final say before a hammer was dropped, but Glork completely shut down that opportunity by laying down the hammer a bit earlier than he

himself

said he would. I'm fairly suspicious of Assmaster so the fact that Glork laid down the hammer when he did thereby completely disallowing a possible pre-N1 Assmaster-post really bothers me.

Well, I'm not really interested in defending Glork here, because I still do find him suspicious based on his day 1 play in general. I'm not really buying this argument, though; yes, Glork had easier mentioned he might try to hammer via phone on the way out, but Xtoxm was acting so unbelivably scummy right up to the end there, I don't blame Glork for just dropping the hammer and getting it done. I'm not sure why you think Assmaster would have said anything different about Xtoxm if given another few hours, either. This whole argument kind of confuses me. And yeah, Glork's over-reaction to the question is fairly bizzare as well.

[Yosarian2]

yos: why are you suspicious for glork's play?

I guess the biggest thing I found odd was his whole attack on you yesterday. That never really made much sense to me; he had several posts attacking you, some of them quite long, but the only point he actually made against you that made any sense at all to me was the "if he's scum we'll take care of him tommorow" comment, and that hardly seems enough.

Glork is a good enough player that his scum-play dosn't diverge much from his town-play; so even though about 70% of his play yesterday is what I would expect from him as town, including the Xtoxm hammer, the other 30% makes me nervous; more so then if it was someone else.

[Yosarian2]

Pffft. Being "extra nervous" because I am renowned is bullshit and you know it, Yos.

I'm not "extra nervous" because you're renowned, and that's not what I said. I'm just much more on the lookout for possible small differences between your scum playstyle and your town playstyle, because I know full well that small differences are all I'm likely to find if you are scum; everyone is readable to some degree, but with good players the differences between their "town playstyle" and "scum playstyle" is far more subtle, and is much more in the details and the exact direction of their arguments then in more general style issues or more obvious scumtells. And I've always gotten the impression you look over everything I post with the same fine-toothed comb, for the same reasons.

Also, Yos, you really need to go back and read my posts again, if that's ALL you got out of my attacks. I'm going to assume this is an honest mistake, because I don't believe that you as scum, would so blatantly lie about that, but seriously. Terrible play.

From what I saw, it looked like most of your other points were either just rhetoric or line-by-line disagreements that didn't really amount to anything. There's nothing fundimentally wrong with anything you said, but it just dosn't seem to add up to a case.

(shrug) It's that part of yesterday, the part where you were attacking Corn, where I get some bad vibes from you. I can't really explain it much better then I have, which is why I haven't made a big deal about it yet, but IGMEOY.

[Yosarian2]

Um...you do realize those two statements kind of agree with each other, EA?

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Yosarian2

Any reason for this?

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Yosarian2

Any reason for this?

I think so. I'm going to either elaborate or move my vote once I've re-read more thoroughly, but I wanted to have it somewhere.

All right. I also still want you to explain exactally what I missed in your Coriolanus attacks, day 1, because I still don't get what it is you were doing there.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, why haven't you posted any scumhunting/votes recently?

Meh. I'm trying to figure stuff out, but I'll admit, Xtoxm flipping town really threw me for a loop. Nearly everything I had thought I had figured out on day 1 is gone, and I feel like I'm totally starting from scatch again.

[Yosarian2]

It's pretty clear to me that he's not interested in scum hunting.

Hah. You wish I wasn't interested in scum hunting.

I'd like you to make a list of people who have done more scum hunting this game then I have. (Hint: you're not on the list.)

Also, it's scummy as hell that, when the only attack you've made at all today was a vote on Glork, you suddenly turn around and take advantage of Glork's logic-less vote on me without questioning it. Especally considering how insistent you've been on voting for Glork, compared to the general shittyness of your case against him.

You're doing the same bullshit you tried day 1, again, when you complained about my contributions while you hadn't done anything yet. I'm posting and actually doing stuff, and you're really not; this is only your third post of the month, and the first two were complete garbage, as I pointed out about your Glork case at the time; and yet you again act like I'm the one who's not scumhunting, just because I haven't voted yet today?

Vote: Erratus Apathos

[Yosarian2]

Yos's poor attacks against EA makes me even more suspicious of him.

?

Poor attacks?

Do you really think EA dosn't look scummy here, charter?

And what do you mean, "even more" suspicious of me? You haven't given any reason to be suspicious of me yet.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not going after EA "because he didn't say much". It's because of the way that he keeps using craplogic for bad attacks on people, and this isn't the first time I've pointed this out, either.

Well, that, and because he's scum.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I notice you didn't actually answer my question.

Do you really think EA dosn't look scummy here, charter?

[Yosarian2]

Do you really think EA dosn't look scummy here, charter?

Correct.[/quote]

Well then, I would suggest going back and re-reading his posts in isolation.

this paragraph makes it seem like it

That's not me attacking him for not contributing, that's me responding to his craplogic reason for voting me. I mean, HE thinks I haven't been scumhunting? Where does he get off saying that?

Besides, the point you guys seem to be missing here is that he's scum. I mean, just read his posts for crying out loud. I'll admit I didn't pay as much attention to him as I should have been until he voted me, but once I took a good look at his "contributions" so far this game, it because blatently obvious that he was scum.

[Yosarian2]

Xtoxm was scum too, that worked out well for you...

Yeah, I'm still waiting for that to be revealed as a mod error.

Especally after he actually ADMITTED that he was delibratly being evasive, for crying out loud. How the @#@# did he flip town? I mean, seriously?

[Yosarian2]

So you're going to have to say more than 'EA is scum' if you want me to believe it.

Sure. Basically, the problem I have with EA is, every single time he's tried to make a case against someone all game, it's been complete craplogic; none of his cases make any sense at all. He keeps moving his vote, often to whoever seems like an easy target, but all of his reasons are just terrible. I just really doubt that he could be a good guy actually looking for scum.

Here; let me quote every singe attack he has made against anyone all game.

No. Just seeing if Ass's idea has any effect...

I'm just mucking about, it's the random phase.

Which is it?

Not liking Yos2's "contributions" so far.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

We already established why this one was garbage; moving on.

Not liking Yos2's "contributions" so far.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

unvote
vote: Erratus Apathos

EA votes Yosarian for "not liking his 'contributions' ", but doesn't back it up. It just looks like some random activity to me until he finds a better target.

I cast a one line vote based on a very early feel, and you predict that I'm probably not going to keep it for the rest of the game? Bold prophecy there, Miss Cleo!

I don't see anything wrong with Yosarian so far. Testing the waters with the alt question was also of interest for me. I'm curious in which way Coriolanus will react to a different subject in the future.

You could end this paragraph with "I'm chainsaw-defending Yos2!" in bold red using the largest font and it wouldn't be much more obvious than it already is.

Not liking Yos2's "contributions" so far.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

This is the sum total of your "contributions" so far.

Vote: xtoxm

FoS: Glork

How do you know Yos isn't tricking scum?

Trust me, an octopus would be FoSing Yos, too.

Octopuses don't have fingers. Lynch the liar!

Unvote
Vote: Glork

Random vote, pointless questions, joke vote.

I'm doing my best to discuss an actual game relevent issue here, and to use pressure to try to get moving. You have done nothing.

Why it's almost as if those posts came during the random voting stage! What actual game relevant issue are you talking about here by the way, that Coriolanus alt bullshit that it seems nobody even mention anymore without saying something like "but I don't think it's a tell, it's just really really interesting"?

What, exactally, do you have against my "contributions"?

I can't see how they lead to finding scum.

Interesting point Yos makes against Erratus.

What's interesting about it?

RV's opportunistic chainsaw vote is the scummiest thing yet.

Unvote
Vote: Rally Vincent

Rally Vincent points out how his attack on me is craplogic and votes him for it, so he OMGUS, calling the vote a "chainsaw defense". Again, total craplogic. If you make a weak, scummy looking attack against someone, and someone else calls you on it, you don't get to just yell "chainsaw defense!" and think that gets you out of trouble.

A question to Incognito, Glork, Yosarian2, Erratus Apathos, Rally Vincent, probably some other people I'm forgetting:
Are you in fact aware of the full case against Dahill? What do you think of the contrast between this and this?

No, I wasn't aware of dahill's post in the 5 things I hate thread. I don't read bitch threads.

While I don't agree that those points are necessarily contradictory, if dahill is town I'd expect him to have pointed out why they weren't contradictory as soon as it was brought up. Instead, he distanced himself from the MD post by effectively claiming that he was only quoting Glork as a devil's advocate. I don't buy it. "take it away, glrok!" sounds much more like someone who knows he's soundly owning animorpher than someone who's trying to start an argument.

Do you typically skim over large parts of the game? Genuine question, because this quote really gives me that impression. Your sum up of the dahill case in particular is clearly wrong.

Yes I skim a lot, but prior to making that post I scoured through dahill's voters' posts looking specifically for the case against him (as well as skimming over his posts myself. Same goes for xtoxm and coriolanus). There's no way I would have missed a clear argument against him - the 5 things I hate contradiction most definitely not being clear.

Unvote
Vote: dahill1

Following the dahill wagon; he's bascially just repeating things other people said, and all in all he's making a really weak argument here, IMHO.

Then, today, his attack on Glork:

(For the record, yes, I still firmly believe that dahill is protown.)

When did you firmly believe he was protown prior to this?

Vote: Glork

Which he then "explained" in this post:

(For the record, yes, I still firmly believe that dahill is protown.)

When did you firmly believe he was protown prior to this?

Vote: Glork

If I gave off any other impression, please point that out.

EBWOP: I'm still not really sure why there's a wagon on dahill -- it seems like the four votes currently on him are for things that I haven't thought to be a particularly big deal, though maybe I've just been tunnel-visioned on the two likely scumbaggoes. I'll check out dahill soon (as in, over N1 probably) and get back to you with a verdict.

As I pointed out, that explination was crap as well. That earlier Glork posts, if anything, reinforces what Glork is saying, which is that he's though dahill was probably town for a while. He's quibbling over details, in a way that dosn't make much sense. (I think there was one more follow up post he made which was lost in one of the crashes; still, this argument is crap.)

And then finally, his craplogic attack on me for "not scumhunting", which is funny considering the quality of EA's scumhunting so far this game.

That is every single attack EA made on anyone all game, (ignoring a few early random/joke votes). Not one of them, at all, anywhere, looks like what I would expect to see from a pro-town guy actually hunting scum.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I'll take a closer look at it, but I feel (without actually checking) you can say the same thing replacing EA with dahill or RV (now elmo/destructor). Can you give opinions on dahill and RV/replacement as well.

On RV; let's see. (reads) He didn't do that much before he started lurking and eventually had to be replaced. I like his early attack on EA, that makes sense to me. It does bug me the way he voted Coriolanus with fairly minimal reason (mostly the "he's trying to save Xtoxm as bait" argument), saying it was because of the deadline and because no one was willing to follow him on EA; then on day 2, he starts off saying:

Vote: Coriolanus

. Same reasons as yesterday.

That's kind of odd; wasn't his position day 1 that he was willing to settle on Coriolanus only as a second choice because he didn't think his main choice should be lynched?

Other then that weirdness, though, I don't really see much else actually scummy from him, although that's probably partly because he didn't say much else. Interested to see what his replacements have to say.

As for dahill: I don't really have a problem with his play, but looking at Incog's post just above mine, I think I won't say anything more specific until EA answers Incog's questions.

EA does have a point that up until that last post, you haven't said hardly anything today.

Eh...I don't think that's true. Most of my posts today have been trying to figure Glork out, because I have mixed feelings on him and I'm trying to pin them down. I hadn't been especally agressive against anyone yet, but that's not the same as doing nothing. (I clearly did seem to get a reaction out of Glork, after all...still interested to see where that leads.)

[Yosarian2]

I should also point out that they would be a very reasonable kill choice even if they didn't suspect me to the point where Patrick told everyone to look at me if he died, simply because they are one among a handful of good players.

And, to be fair, Patrick and Ether were incredibly obv town, and no one really suspected them at all.

I don't really think they were killed just because they were high profile, good players, and experenced, though; in a normal game, I'd agree with you, but oddly almost everyone is this game is a high profile, good, experenced player. This game is nearly an invitational, as far as average skill level goes.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, and? Am I supposed to infer that you can't be scum because you post more than I do? The fact that you were involved in the scum hunt yesterday doesn't change the fact that you weren't today.

Again, where the hell do you get the idea I wasn't looking for scum today?

And, no, I'm not suggesting that, although it certanly is a point in my favor. I am suggesting that you are scum, since every attack you've made on anyone all game has been scummy craplogic.

"take advantage of Glork's logic-less vote"? What in the hell does that mean?

I mean that you know that if Glork is attacking someone, even if he's not using logic yet, their odds of survival tend to go way down, and you tried to take advantage of that. As Incog pointed out, if you were really suspicious of Glork, and he voted someone using zero logic, it dosn't make sense for you to go ahead and vote that same person without questoning his vote at all.

And you're doing the same bullshit you tried day 1, what with your defense

still

being pure ad hominem.

Um, no. Ad hominem would be "You are wrong because you're stupid'. What I did was say "You're not making any sense. Also, you haven't made any sense at all this game, so you're probably scum." That's not what "ad hom" means.

And no, my defense against your day 1 craplogic attack wasn't ad hom, at all.

[Yosarian2]

That last post was me as well.

Also to Glork, what did you seriously think the town would gain out of the Coriolanus-alt discussion? I'm not asking for an essay, even dot points would be enough for now.

des

Actually, I'd like Yos, Incog and dahill to answer that instead.

(shrug) Ok.

-Finding out if someone is an experenced player or not, finding out who they are so they can be meta'd, and similar things, are very useful things to know later.

-I think the pressure me and Glork put on him, and the responses he made to that pressure, helped me get a handle on him, on how he responds, and to get a feel for him. This was true even before I found out who he actually is.

-That early, on day 1, I think getting any kind of game-relevent discussion going is helpful to the town.

[Yosarian2]

I am actually quite a bit more interested in Yos2 than you after rereading and looking at Des's notes, I've done one of my patented 180s, I think. Oh well. Hopefully changing reads apon going over the game in detail and discussing it is a good sign, haha.

Uh...really? That's odd, and actually takes away from a minor possible town-tell I thought I had spotted from your duo.

Yos: Why exactly was Xtoxm supposed to be scum?

Elmo

Why did I suspect him?

1. Incredibly anti-town actions; claiming vanillia for no reason being the biggest one.

2. Multiple OMGUS attacks.

3. After OMGUSing both me and Glork for suspecting him, he made the comment "everyone I suspect is voting for me", which seemed like a really bad "oh the scum are out to get me" defense. (Which, by the way, is why I mentioned on day 1 that I didn't think it was likely Xtoxm and Glork were scum together.)

4. After I called his behavior anti-town, he responded with an incredibly illogical and scummy comment, saying that I "knew he was town", and voted me.

5. He the refused to explain himself, at all, even under threat of lynch. (I actually did say to him that he could either answer my questions or die. I'll admit I didn't really expect him to die rather then answer my question, but that's the risk you take when you pressure someone...)

6. Before Glork hammered him, he actually admittted he was delibratly evading my questions and refusing to answer them, proving that I was reading him right and he was, in fact, delibratly being evasive. Even know that I know he was pro-town, I still can not understand or even imagine why a pro-town person would do that; the only reason I can think of for refusing to answer questions about your motive would be if your motive was actually scummy and you don't think you can hide that if you explain.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: What do you think about Glork at the moment?

I'll probably have a better answer for this once he answers my questions about his attacks on Simenoon, and about his vote for me today. At this moment, I'm really not sure.

[Yosarian2]

I'm going to be posting a case on Yos.

Bring it.

[Yosarian2]

More to the point, why aren't more people voting Erratus Apathos? He is so obv scum if you just read his posts, that I can't understand why more people aren't voting him.

[Yosarian2]

More to the point, why aren't more people voting Erratus Apathos? He is so obv scum if you just read his posts, that I can't understand why more people aren't voting him.

Deflecting for dahill now too are we?

Um...no, I don't think Dahill is scum, like I've said about a dozen times.

You might be perfectly happy blindly following a bandwagon on me, despite who is pushing it and the fact that none of them have even tried to give any kind of reason, but persoanlly, I'd rather lynch scum. You know, EA.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't like the entire discussion about whether Coriolanus was an alt. I thought it was mostly useless so far as outing scum goes. Because of this, I found anyone saying it was useful or "interesting" iffy because none of them, besides Glork, actually explained how it might be useful or of interest to the town. For lack of an explanation, I considered their posts on the topic to be little besides noise and so anti-town.

You read people based on how they react to stuff in thread. That's how the game works. And it's pro-town to get game-realated conversation going, for that reason.

In this case, it got the process started of getting a read on Corio, on how he reacts, on how he thinks, ect. In taking his reactions there, (and in getting reactions there by delibratly incresing the pressure on him over the issue), and comparing them to what he said later, I got kind of a feel for him and for how he reacts, which is why I ended up with a weak pro-town vibe from him. I was interested to see if his over-reaction was indicitive of him being scummy or not, and after getting a better read on him, I decided it wasn't. It's also why I'm a little confused about Glork; I don't understand why he started with the exact same information, and came to a concluson Corio was scum at the same moment I came to the conclusion he problably wasn't.

Yos seems to sum up his thoughts on the discussion here:

Again, it dosn't matter that much, although it is useful information for the town to have I think. I'm just wondering why you're reacting so strongly here.

There is absolutely nothing pro-town in this post so far as I'm concerned. He says "it doesn't matter that much" even though he was one of the players asking Cor about his knowledge of the playerlist. He then says that it's useful info for the town. I still cannot see how anyone could see the results of that discussion, whatever they were, as useful to the town. The last sentence is pure noise - I wondered about Cor's reaction too, but I couldn't see a reason to believe his behaviour was more likely to be a result of being scum, so I pretty much dropped it. The fact that Yos notes it but doesn't elaborate about why it's even worth mentioning comes across like a false contribution to scum-hunting.

No, I didn't elaborate on exactally what it means, because I didn't know yet. But his reactions, when I was able to compare then to his reactions to actual scumhunting later, are useful to me in helping to figure out his alignment. Getting game related conversation going ASAP is a pro-town thing to do, because it lets you start to get a feel for the other people in the game.

Your last sentance against dosn't make any sense; it's the same garbage attack EA made at the time. Why would you attack me for "pretending to scumhunt" at a point in the game when almost no one else is doing anything yet?

At least Yosarian admitted that this probably wasn't the most productive subject.

Actually, no, I don't think that. The subject of "is Corio an alt or not", isn't all that relevent; but Corio's answers, his response, really seem strange to me here, and I think his posting here might be a very productive subject.

This, his next post, is another example of exactly the same behaviour: Corio's answers

might

be a very productive subject. Zero elaboration. Noise.

Well, yeah. What kind of elaboration would you expect? I certanly didn't know yet what I would end up getting out of Corio's answers. I just wanted to understand why he was reacting the way he was.

Besides that, he's pretty much completely flipped on how useful the topic is in one post.

Well, because it was. At the very least, it was significantly more useful then anything else I could possibly have been doing at the time. I'm not sure why you don't get that.

I have no idea what Yos is trying to achieve with this. It seems like he's trying to argue Coro into admitting he is an alt, which I don't think has any relevance to whether he's scum or not.

[1]Well...it's a useful thing to know, and especally if he says whose alt he is I suspect I'll have a much easier time reading him, for meta reasons and such (there are a few players from which I wouldn't find this kind of over-reaction to be a scum tell, for example.)

[2]But, mostly, I just think it's odd the way he's reacting. I think his initial "why isn't Glork dead yet" post was really odd, and I'm trying to figure out what he's thinking right now. I care less about if he is an alt then about why he's reacting this way to Glork speculating he's an alt; , the overly hostile reaction to what looks to me to be logical speculation on Glork's part seems kind of scummy to me.

1. This is inconsistent with his earlier comment about it not being important whether Corio is an alt.

(shrug) Finding out who's alt he is is useful, yes. However, at the point when I made the earlier comments, I was much more interested in putting pressure on him to get him to explain why he was reacting like that, if he could.

2. Is more of the same stuff that leaves me asking, "so why is it scummy again?"

Right. In this case, I don't think it is now, and you'll notice I never actually said it was.

Incog asks Yos the question I had been asking:

Yosarian2 and dahill1, do you find Coriolanus's reaction to be scummy-interesting or some other type of interesting?

Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out. My natural reaction is to be suspicious of someone who reacts like that, although as Ether pointed out there are other possible reasons for it.

Since Yos has said this is his natural reaction, I expect that he should be able to provide examples.

Provide examples of what? Of my natural tendency being to assume that people who lose their temper for bad reasons, who over-react to stuff, are scum? Sure, I can find examples of that, if you want me to. It's not always true, certanly, but that's generally my first instint when seeing something like that. Do you want me to go find examples of that?

Also, a lot depends on if I'm dealing with an experenced mafia player or a true newbie; reactions are different. Glork asked him that question earlier of if he'd played on a different forum, and he hasn't answered it yet.

Eh, minor point, but Corio mentioned playing on Conquer Club. How much is Yos reading and how much is he going with the flow?

Yeah, I corrected this almost right afterwards. I usually respond to posts as I read them, rather then read the whole thread and then go back and answer posts, so when I responded to the post above I hadn't read that post yet.

Why have neither of you gone forward and actually voted for him as of yet?

(shrug) Haven't decided yet if his play is scummy or not, I suppose.

But! -

the overly hostile reaction to what looks to me to be logical speculation on Glork's part seems kind of scummy to me.

Considering how much he's been implying Corio's reaction is scummier than it's not, I would have expected that he'd have a more solid stance by this point.

Why would you expect me to have a "solid stance" that early in the day? Do Corio's early first few posts, on their own, give you a "solid stance' about his alignment?

In Post 151 Yos gets REALLY OMGUSy towards EA and basically goes, "NO U!"

No, that's not what I was saying, and I explained that multiple times. It's absurd to be attacking me for my useful contributions at a time in the game when he, and almost everyone else, isn't doing anything useful yet. If he could argue that my posts were somehow anti-town, were somehow hurting the town, then it would make sense; but of course he couldn't, and neither can you, because they weren't. The most he (or you) could say would be that you don't think it was all that useful, or that you don't understand why it is useful. Again, compare it to anything else I could have done at that point in the game, when almost everyone else was still in the random phase; how is my posting not more useful then that?

Yos unvotes Incognito in 154 because he's getting "pro-town vibes". I feel this is important to note. I took it as evidence for Yos being scum because I did not at all get a pro-town vibe from Incog, and was even leaning scum on him based on what had happened so far.

Really? You're going to have to explain that to me, because that dosn't make any sense.

I will mention that, at the meet last summer, I played about a billion games of 5 player vengefull face to face mafia with Incog, so perhaps I have a better read of him. But still, at that point, he looked rather pro- town. Nothing especally strong, nothing I'd bet the bank on, but enough so I didn't want to be voting him anymore.

Elmo found it odd too for the same reasons except that his read of Incog was much more neutral at the time. Considering our reads of Incog and the fact that Yos had shown little to no interest in Incog's play, this unvote didn't make much sense to us at all.

Why would I "show interest" in someone's play if I didn't think they were acting scummy? What kind of interet do you expect me to show?

I have to go, so I'll leave it there for now. I really really REALLY didn't like Yos' role in the Xtoxm lynch so I'll cover most of that next time unless Elmo gets to it first. Both of us thought the Xtoxm wagon was horrible but I think we might have slightly different opinions on how telling this was for Yos.

Are you serious? I can't imagine anyone thinking Xtoxm was town by the time he got lynched. Or did you already know that when you read through day 1? Either way, I'd do the exact same thing again. (shrug)

[Yosarian2]

Again, where the hell do you get the idea I wasn't looking for scum today?

From the horse's mouth:

Yos, why haven't you posted any scumhunting/votes recently?

Meh. I'm trying to figure stuff out, but I'll admit, Xtoxm flipping town really threw me for a loop. Nearly everything I had thought I had figured out on day 1 is gone, and I feel like I'm totally starting from scatch again.

When Coriolanus asked you why you hadn't scumhunted, you explained why you didn't. You wouldn't be explaining why you didn't scumhunt if you did.

No, I was explaining why I hadn't voted yet on day 2. I certanly had been scumhunting. In fact, I've found at least one scum, you, so I think I'm doing pretty good.

And, no, I'm not suggesting that, although it certanly is a point in my favor.

Yeah, you are suggesting that. Your vote for me was pretty much just "I posted more than you, so you're scum".

No, I never said that. I wasn't voting for you because of how much you were posting, I was voting for you because of the quality of your posts.

And why would it be a point in your favor? Unless OGML weighted town roles towards frequent posters, post rate means dick.

Because scum tend to lurk more, and say less, then town. Because it's more dangerous for them to post, while town have more motivation to post since it's the only way they can win. Duh. It's not a strong tell or anything, of course.

"take advantage of Glork's logic-less vote"? What in the hell does that mean?

I mean that you know that if Glork is attacking someone, even if he's not using logic yet, their odds of survival tend to go way down, and you tried to take advantage of that.

So Glork can single-handedly get you lynched without ever explaining why you're a good lynch.

No, I didn't say "without explaining himself", because I'm sure he will. I was just pointing out that Glork is one of the best people in the game in the skill of getting the person he's attacking lynched, and I'm sure you knew that and were taking advantage of the fact.

That's amazing, does he also win Connect Four in three moves and stare down books until they give him the information he wants? Either way, my reason for voting you is different from Glork's (by virtue of the fact that I've actually provided a reason) and I'm still voting you even after Glork switched to Destructo. There is precisely zero basis to assume that I'm voting you because Glork voted you. You're clearly just making shit up here. Die scum.

Bullshit. The reason for you vote was completle bullshit, and I'm sure you know that. You were just looking for an excuse to join the wagon when it looked good (IE: after Glork voted me), and now you can't get off it without looking worse.

As Incog pointed out, if you were really suspicious of Glork, and he voted someone using zero logic, it dosn't make sense for you to go ahead and vote that same person without questoning his vote at all.

Except I voted for you

after

I stopped being suspicious of Glork.

Right. Of course, you never mentioned that until you were called on it.

Um, no. Ad hominem would be "You are wrong because you're stupid'. What I did was say "You're not making any sense. Also, you haven't made any sense at all this game, so you're probably scum." That's not what "ad hom" means.

And no, my defense against your day 1 craplogic attack wasn't ad hom, at all.

Ad hominem means

all

attacks against the arguer rather than the argument, not just the inflammatory kind. Wiki ftw. Your defense against me has

always

rested on me having no grounds to attack you, rather than on actually disputing the claims made in the attack.

Um...no.

My defense against you is that your attack on me is complete and utter bullshit. I certanly been scumhunting, and have been doing a much better job of it then you have this game, so your attack against me is just false.

My attack agaist you is that your attacks on everyone is complete and utter bullshit, and that I'm sure you already know that, since you're clearly scum who's just trying to find excuses to attack people so it looks like you're scumhunting.

More to the point, why aren't more people voting Erratus Apathos? He is so obv scum if you just read his posts, that I can't understand why more people aren't voting him.

When you say "More to the point" you're supposed to follow it up with an actual point.

I did. The point is, I want to know why you haven't been lynched yet. Are people just not reading this guy's posts, or what?

[Yosarian2]

That's right, Yos. People aren't reading my posts.

Well, you're still alive, and you've done absolutly nothing pro-town all game. So, yeah, people clearly aren't.

[Yosarian2]

You did a much better job scumhunting than me? I guess you're right, if I was honestly scumhunting I probably would have caught Xtoxm like you did.

This is a great point. Yos is completely wrong in being self-righteous here. You would think being painfully incorrect would be a humbling enough experience, but he's just shrugged it off without even considering how he set back the town.

So, if I'm scumhunting, I'm supposed to be right 100% of the time?

And of course I didn't just "shrug it off". I just explained to you that that's why I hadn't voted yet, because after being wrong day 1 I was confused and was being careful.

But I still refuse to admit that anything in the Xtoxm wagon was "bad scumhunting". If he had just stopped being so frustrating and answered my god damned questions, then perhaps I could have figured out his alignment. I refuse to take the blame for Xtoxm's stupidity here.

[Yosarian2]

anyways,

vote yosarian

i don't see his case on EA and it is mainly translating into OMGUS in my eyes.

HAVE YOU READ ANY OF HIS GODDAMNED POSTS?

Find me one thing EA has done this game that makes him look pro-town. One post of his that makes any sense at all. One post of his that isn't the most obviously scummy craplogic pretending to be scumhunting you've ever seen.

[Yosarian2]

Yos looks more like he's just getting ready to roll over and die while dropping the least number of tells on his buddies, or, in the case that he isn't lynched today, giving himself the room to continue attacking EA tomorrow.

Or else it means that if the rest of the town would rather lynch me then take 5 minutes to read EA's posts for themselves and for their own opinion, and I haven't seen any sign yet that anyone has, then there's nothing else I can do for the town.

I'm also pretty freakin sure there's a heap of stalling going on. With TWO wagons at 3 votes and 6 to lynch, I've got no doubt that the near completely lack of wagon growth is due to scum stalling. I'm also inclined to take this as a sign that there's a good chance one of Yos or dahill is scum.

Uh...or else that we're both town, which seems the most likely scenerio at this point. Besides, you and EA are already voting for me, and that's 2 of the 3 scum right there.

[Yosarian2]

I thought I posted this, but i must have deleted it or something, but Yos' push on EA is similar to his on Xtox yesterday in that he's not showing us any evidence that he's seriously considering EA as part of a scum-team.

Uh, I never do that, because it's stupid. First you find one scum, you lynch him, and then you look for his scumbuddies. Vauge speculation built on an assumption on an early part of the game is just bad play. Now, endgame when there's a very limited number of suspects left, sure, try and figure out the whole scumgroup by connections and process of eliminitation; but on day 1 or day 2? Pfft.

[Yosarian2]

but yeah charter, i think yos got way scummier with dahill's vote.

scummier?

yes.

1. it looks like a bus.
2. since i think yos has an increased chance of being scum if dahill is scum, any scummy action of dahill also indirectly increases the chance of yos being scum
3. it looks a hell of a lot like a bus.

Um...except I'm town.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

READ THIS TOMMOROW.

All right. I think I'm about to get lynched. After I get lynched and come up town, everyone please come back and take a good look at this part of the post tommorow. This should probably be the first thing everyone comments on tommorow, and anyone who refuses to do so, you should take a good look at.


EA is obv scum, and his most likely scum partners are Glork and El Destructo. After I die, stop following the three of them like sheep, please. Charter is possible too, but a little less likely. Coriolanus and Incognito are both looking very pro-town to me, and Assmaster is also probably town, though not as strongly as those two.

[Yosarian2]

(points up at Incog's post) You see? Obv town, like I said.

Anyway, let's see...oh, we still have 2 days left until deadline? Heh...I figured it was less then that, with the way everyone was flipping out just because I hadn't joined the crappy 3 vote wagon on Dahill.

However, while he's not as obv scum as EA, I'll compromise this far, in the hopes of perhaps actually getting a scum lynched today.

Unvote:EA

Vote:El Destructo

EA's still a better lynch, but I'll settle for an El Desructo wagon if I have to, which now also has 3 votes.

[Yosarian2]

(nods) As expected.

[Yosarian2]

Also, just to be sure no one misses it, let me repeat myself:

READ THIS TOMMOROW.

All right. I think I'm about to get lynched. After I get lynched and come up town, everyone please come back and take a good look at this part of the post tommorow. This should probably be the first thing everyone comments on tommorow, and anyone who refuses to do so, you should take a good look at.


EA is obv scum, and his most likely scum partners are Glork and El Destructo. After I die, stop following the three of them like sheep, please. Charter is possible too, but a little less likely. Coriolanus and Incognito are both looking very pro-town to me, and Assmaster is also probably town, though not as strongly as those two.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, so this whole Yos/EA thing had me thinking earlier in the day that they could be Scumbuddies, though I'm not sure how much I believe that or not.

Nice distancing, btw. It's not going to work once I come up dead and town, but it's a nice try.

First, the Corio thing. It looks like El Des just went over this, but in one post Yos said that whether Corio was an alt "wasn't that relevant," and in the very next post, he implies that he wants to know so he can possibly meta Corio, which makes Corio's identity extremely relevant. I guess Yos's defense is that his intentions changed. Any way you try to cut it, it looks flip-floppy to me.

(shrug) In theory, trying to find out if someone is an alt is a worthwhile thing to do, and anyone who attacked me on the grounds that it was not, I pointed out that they were wrong. In practice, in this specific case, I was much more interested in Corio's response. There's no contradiction.

Secondly, the whole Xtoxm "OMGUS" thing. I didn't notice it until just recently, but Yos grossly misrepresents the situation surrounding Xtoxm's OMGUS. What got me is that Yos was very careful to label Xtoxm's actions as "anti-town" rather than scummy, but when Xtoxm replied by saying "Sounds like someone knows I'm town," suddenly it was OMGUS. My understanding of OMGUS is that, by definition, it is attacking somebody for accusing you of being scum.

Right; I was attacking him, and clearly getting very close to voting him, so he OMGUS attacked me. I guess a "pre-emptive-OMGUS" would be more accurate.

I think if I had picked up on this at the time, it would have sent up a tiny red flag which would have caused me to back off Xtoxm a little bit and take a broader view (including scrutinizing Yos a bit more). Obivously that didn't happen, so all I'm left with is this feeling that Yos pulled a fast one on Xtox and the rest of us.

Oh, what a crock of BS. You knew Xtoxm was town, and you made sure he would get lynched while also making sure I would take the blame for it.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I want you guys to take a really close look at this tommorow, after my lynch.

I'm also pretty freakin sure there's a heap of stalling going on. With TWO wagons at 3 votes and 6 to lynch, I've got no doubt that the near completely lack of wagon growth is due to scum stalling. I'm also inclined to take this as a sign that there's a good chance one of Yos or dahill is scum. I think scum would be more likely to be active at deadline if the leading wagon was a mislynch and obviously much more nervous when it's one of their buddies who's about to get lynched.

Now, stop, read, and think about what he's trying to do here. He's trying to pressure me into voting Dahill, he's pulling a "either Dahill or Yos is scum" thing completly out of his ass, and he's trying to set up for two mislynches in a row.

This is the reason I wouldn't join the Dahill wagon. It's obvious to me that the scum have been hoping to get Dahill lynched today and me lynched tommorow, or the other way around, and they don't really care which one. I'd say there's like an 80% chance Dahill is town (it did drop some when he joined my wagon to save himself, but that's understandable anyway).

There's only a few ways this could have turned out.

1. Dahill lynched. Yos lynched tommorow. Both are town, town probably loses.

2. Yos lynched. Town (hopefully) listens to what Yos was saying once they realize he was town. Town had a decent chance.

3. Either EA or El Destructo lynched, flips scum, and proves me innocent. Town probably wins.

Option 1 was not acceptable.

I'm still not 100% sure Glork is the third member of the scum team, but the first two are definatly EA and El Destructo. Lynch one of them tommorow, come hell or high water.

[Yosarian2]

Incognito: El Destructo was in a gray area for a while (I wavered on the Glork argument, which was bad, but it read like a genuine effort) What sold it was the argument on Yosarian, which was well put. A lot of this hinges of Yos' alignment.

I'm going to hold off voting for yosarian until the last minute because I want to hold everyone accountable for not killing off dahill.

Or, you know, we could lynch one of the people that are actually scum. There's still time.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry to quadriple post, but

Can we get a mod-prod on Tuberkulos, please?

[Yosarian2]

I'm still not 100% sure Glork is the third member of the scum team, but the first two are definatly EA and El Destructo. Lynch one of them tommorow, come hell or high water.

2. Multiple OMGUS attacks.

3. After OMGUSing both me and Glork for suspecting him, he made the comment "everyone I suspect is voting for me", which seemed like a really bad "oh the scum are out to get me" defense. (Which, by the way, is why I mentioned on day 1 that I didn't think it was likely Xtoxm and Glork were scum together.)

I'm just going to leave that there and call it a day.

No, you're not.

Before I die, right now, I want to hear the excuse you're going to give for not voting either of the obvscums EA or El Destructo tommorow when I die and come up town.

[Yosarian2]

I was so sloppy on days one and two, it wasn't even funny.

But honestly, the town has nobody to blame but themselves. Xtoxm imploded Day One, and Yos led the charge against him, for the most part. Then Yos imploded on Day Two. And that made Day Three mostly elementary.

I didn't implode. I was in the process of setting up a trap for you, because I was so damn sure you were scum but I knew I didn't have enough to get you lynched yet. And it was working; you had already voted for me, but were refusing to explain why; I would have had you day 2. Then EA went after me for a crap reason, and I got all distracted...bah. Frustrating

Oh well. Well played, scum. Incog played incredibly well, he had me completly fooled; I'll make sure to keep an eye on him next time...

[Yosarian2]

I'm curious that no-one seems to be criticising me for pushing Yos' lynch, it seems like a really fucking stupid mistake to me, he even seemed obviously town to me on my initial read-through; I have an obscure explanation for why I made it, but no-one cares. It would be nice if people just bluntly said what they thought of my play, really.

That was actually why I thought you were probably scum; when you first said "Elmo thinks Yos is town and Des thinks Yos is scum", I totally bought that; you can usually read me pretty well, I think, whereas Des seems to always think I'm scum. Then when you suddenly flipped on me after I went after EA, I decided you were probably his scum partner.

I will mention that it's really difficult and frustrating to debate a double-head. Between you, Des, and Glork all dropping walls of words on me, I literally was not capable of responding to everything that was said to me; it just wasn't possible.

[Yosarian2]

Hm, that's probably helpful advice in general. It's more like here, I figured X was scum because they did Y which I consider very scummy. But pushing Y as a reason to lynch them will just fail horribly, and there aren't any usable reasons out there. It's not at all hard for scum to avoid doing stuff that will get them lynched in this kind of situation. I mean there is other stuff factoring in, but that's the main thing, I think, sometimes there's nothing to build a case on. That just leaves name-calling, really.

Honestly, the best success I've had in that kind of situation is just to play like scum and make shit up. Lie, cheat, steal etc. But that seemed a bad idea here.

(nods) Yeah, I was in the same place with Glork day 2; I knew he had acted differently then he would have as town, but I had nothing to make a case on. With most people, I might have BS'd something and tried to get them run up, but the odds of that working when going after Glork are probably pretty small, especally in a group with a skill level this high.

Also, I should quote this:

So Glork can single-handedly get you lynched without ever explaining why you're a good lynch. That's amazing, does he also win Connect Four in three moves and stare down books until they give him the information he wants?

just to point out that that was, actaully, pretty much exactally what happend.

[Yosarian2]

I thought calling out the case he made on Corio was a good start. I'd definitely throw in the way too heavy handed approach with Xtoxm, but I guess we differ there. There were plenty of meta differences, but that's quite hard to persuade people with if they don't feel it, unless they're prepared to read alot of text, which people here weren't.

I suppose we could ask those who were town who read Xtoxm as town, what did you think of Glork pushing it with almost no backing up or second guessing at all? Did you just think he was being silly, and if so, why did you think that?

Hmmm...I donno, I kind of thought the Xtoxm thing was just what Glork would have done as town, and I thought the "Is corio an alt" thing was what he would have done as town. I really think the only big moment of divergence day 1 Glork made from his town playstyle was what he did after the "alt" thing; right at the point I started to think Corio was town, Glork suddenly started going after him harder, and that seemed like a scum mistake to me. Only reason I didn't go after Glork day 1 was because I was certain that Glork could not be scum with Xtoxm, and I was having a hard time seeing Xtoxm as possible town, especally when he just kept evading simple questions for no reason.

(5:07:43 PM) patrickgower2006: no surprises with xtoxm
(5:09:05 PM) patrickgower2006: the mod is trying to make his alignment seem uncertain, which is odd
(5:09:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: He is?
(5:09:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: He did put him in green font.
(5:09:38 PM) patrickgower2006: he asks what side was he on?
(5:09:46 PM) patrickgower2006: our side

That threw you guys too?

For like an hour after I saw the lynch, I was happily convinced we had lynched a scum, then I suddenly remember that "conspiritor" meant "townie" in this game.

[Yosarian2]

whereas Des seems to always think I'm scum

It's funny you mention that, he said your play was really close to Crackers, and I argued it was totally different.

I've only played with Yos twice (including this game). heh

I thought the way you were pushing the Xtoxm case had similarities to how you pushed the case on me in Crackers.

(shrug) Perhaps. I think did mention after the game that I would have wagoned you the exact same way if I was town; perhaps you believe me now.

[Yosarian2]

I checked the Crackers thread and you hadn't left any comments after the game.

My bad; I had my games confused.

But yeah, I think Elmo mentioned that at some point to me, but I still thought I was onto some nuance of your play =/. I'll be more careful about reads of you in the future. I seems like I might have pushed the right lynch for some of the wrong reasons in Crackers. heh.

Well, so long as you otherwise have good reasons for a wagon, I think it can be a pro-town action to "pound the table", to repeat yourself, to say things like "the guy is scum can we lynch him now" and such; it increses the pressure on him, increases the odds of the town focusing on the guy you think is scum, communicates just how serious you are about the wagon. Of course, if you're wrong, like I was, it really increases your chances of getting lynched, so it can be risky.