Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Xylthixlm]

I'm back, catching up.

Caught up yet?

Can I ask why you are focused on killa seven when others are lurking just as badly?

Who?

I noted ZZ and Sens are both in the lurks lack of info area. However Sens I do have notice is having RL issues. Also many including myself have been prodded.

After we get k7 to contribute we can bandwagon xyzzy next. Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

[Sir Tornado]

Sorry about this. I'll post tonight.

[Sir Tornado]

Sorry about this. I'll post tonight.

[OhGodMyLife]

Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

You obviously don't know much of xyzzy.

[curiouskarmadog]

Going back to about page 25 to update thoroughly.
I remember that at the end of my read (page 25) I felt like anyone attacking tubby based on being aggressively defensive was sticking out as scum. I was planning to vote Xly, but got called away from the game. Now need to read…typing as reading.

do you still feel that tubby is being aggressively defensive?...

Yes.

My question to you would have been so? Lets say for the sake of argument he was being “aggressively denfensive”. Explain to me why that is scummy.

Not much on 26 IMO

Page 27, everyone is now starting to come out about how against the tubby wagon they are (Xyl, Shanba)…what does that mean? Who knows. Something to note though.

I agree tubby shouldn’t be lynched…(now do I fall in that category to note?)

(681) hoopla lurker hunts (votes hammer)
(682)Xyl follows
(684) is not moving is vote from OGML, but doesn’t like the hammer either (hate this post)

Another gut read conversation involving vollkan. Man, you are going to have to get over that vollkan..people do it. Day 1 A LOT of people do it.

(692) long posts, end with a hammer vote.

Not sure why hammer is getting heat but not Sir T?

Claus is in the game..I like him…good people.

Hammer claims miller (702)votes self (sort of)

(704) seraphim as no problem jumping on wagon.
(707) Xyl votes hammer again.
(709) so does Nat.

Like claus’ (710) post.

Vollkan/XLY theory discussion about millers.

(727) hammer unvotes self, but does vote anyone else…hmmm.

So can I get some support for a Sir T wagon yet or what?

Yes
Shanba and Nat have no problem instantly jumping on the wagon…hoopla too

Well, I would have, but I don’t like the quality of the people (nat and Hoopla) on that wagon…

Think instead of jumping on yet another lurker hunting wagon…I will join a wagon of someone that is actually scummy AND lurkerish..

Vote Seraphim

OGML and Shanba…your thoughts on Sera?

[The Fonz]

Overkill vote count:

Sir Tornado (4): Shanba, OhGodMyLife, Natirasha, Hoopla
Der Hammer (3): Hoopla, Xylthixlm, Seraphim,
Tubby216 (3): SensFan, Yosarian2, xyzzy
Seraphim (3): Claus, Der Hammer, curiouskarmadog
OhGodMyLife (2) - farside22, tubby216,
Xylthixlm (1): Sir Tornado
curiouskarmadog (1): iamausername
Shanba (1): Battle Mage

not voting: Killa Seven, skitzer, militant, vollkan, Ectomancer

[iamausername]

Sorry, this game got away from me a bit.

I'm still waiting on an explanation from ckd as to how SensFan's voting while he caught up was scummy. This is a really big point of contention for me.

DH's miller claim is iffy. I certainly don't agree with Xyl's suggestion of policy lynching claimed millers (unless they're claiming AFTER a cop claims a guilty on them), but the fact that he only claimed after coming under significant pressure and not as soon as D1 started makes me less inclined to trust him. That and his ease in backing away from the whole self-sacrificing bent. I would certainly not object to a DH lynch at this point.

As far as Claus goes, we're all agreeing to completely ignore Gimbo's fuckery and give him a clean slate, right? I'm pretty sure that is the way to go.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm still waiting on an explanation from ckd as to how SensFan's voting while he caught up was scummy. This is a really big point of contention for me.

This is all moot at this point (for now)...but, it wasnt just that(and it was stated VERY clearing so I am not sure why you are over looking that). I didnt like the vote in general (for the same reason's Sir T voted Hoopla). What I found scummy about Sensfan, a lot had happened since Page 1, knowing that, why vote? It was reckless. why not read THEN vote? I felt like he was trying to look like he was doing something (voting after the end of every page of his read) without really doing anything. I found the vote on hoopla conveinent because he was getting heat at the time. i also didnt like the way he ignored my questions. But during his "reread", he was still posting in thread (obviously reading the current page at the time)....the whole thing seemed (and now looking over it again seems) scummy to me.

[curiouskarmadog]

you know..I take that back..it is not moot..

just reading over that again, sends off alarms. I like my vote where it is, but Sens...your current thoughts on tubby, you still think he is the lynch?..why? Your thoughts on the miller claim?...and since you and Sir T shared I like mind early in the game...your thoughts on his wagon now?

[iamausername]

it wasnt just that(and it was stated VERY clearing so I am not sure why you are over looking that)

Yes it was. You might have added further justification later, but you originally voted for Sens based entirely on this. That is the part I have a problem with.

What I found scummy about Sensfan, a lot had happened since Page 1, knowing that, why vote? It was reckless.

Why not vote? Nobody was remotely close to a lynch at that time, so how, exactly, was it reckless?

I felt like he was trying to look like he was doing something (voting after the end of every page of his read) without really doing anything.

If he had instead just pointed out his suspicions from the first few pages, without voting based on them, would you still be saying this?

[farside22]

I'm back, catching up.

Caught up yet?

Can I ask why you are focused on killa seven when others are lurking just as badly?

Who?

I noted ZZ and Sens are both in the lurks lack of info area. However Sens I do have notice is having RL issues. Also many including myself have been prodded.

After we get k7 to contribute we can bandwagon xyzzy next. Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

Don't you think the person who doesn't lurk as norm is more suspicious or is this like what you said somewhere else about getting the lurker types to change there ways or vote them off?

[Der Hammer]

DH's miller claim is iffy. I certainly don't agree with Xyl's suggestion of policy lynching claimed millers (unless they're claiming AFTER a cop claims a guilty on them), but the fact that he only claimed after coming under significant pressure and not as soon as D1 started makes me less inclined to trust him. That and his ease in backing away from the whole self-sacrificing bent. I would certainly not object to a DH lynch at this point.

I'm not backing away from it. As soon as I did it people came out and criticised me for it, which is perfectly fair. People said I would be better off just holding on, and start properly contributing to the town or be labelled a flaker. I understand that I still am, for some, the only lynch today.

[Xylthixlm]

After we get k7 to contribute we can bandwagon xyzzy next. Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

Don't you think the person who doesn't lurk as norm is more suspicious or is this like what you said somewhere else about getting the lurker types to change there ways or vote them off?

I have hope that xyzzy will start contributing spontaneously without a wagon.

*eyes xyzzy*

[Xylthixlm]

Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

You obviously don't know much of xyzzy.

I know he has a cool nick.

[Yosarian2]

Something like this.

If there was a guilty cop result on someone, you would lynch them even if they claim miller.

If someone claims miller early, then you know that any cop inspect on them

will

be guilty. That means that there is no difference in information about the miller's alignment whether or not the cop uses an inspection. (The cop knows, too, and will never actually inspect the miller). So a claimed miller is logically equivalent to an inspected miller.

Since you would lynch an inspected miller, and a claimed miller is logically equivalent to an inspected miller, you should lynch a claimed miller.

I will say that I don't necessarally disagree with this logic. I'm usually in favor of lynching claimed millers, and Der Hammer is both a claimed miller, a self-voter, and he lurked for much of the game. He's basically the ultimate day 1 safe lynch.

Only problem is, I don't really think he's scum. Saying "I'm a miller, I should therefore die, vote:self" clear out of the blue like that would be a pretty crazy gambit for a scum to pull out of the air, especally since all he had on him at the time were a few lurker votes. I mean, I can't think of many mafia player who would ever even think of trying a bizzare gambit like that, let alone actually do it.

I still need Seraphim to explain why he thinks der hammer is scum, because I'm not buying his explination at the moment.

[Ectomancer]

Geez, and here I thought I was 'established' as a player who likes bizzare gambits

You're right though, I haven't thought of that one and certainly haven't tried to pull it off before. I agree that the circumstances don't support a Scum DH. I say don't lynch him...ever. Let scum do their own dirty work. Their only hope would be to keep that aura of doubt surrounding him so that town will feel forced to lynch him. If that is their hope, they better not let us both live to end game.

[Xylthixlm]

My God, it's full of WIFOM!

[Ectomancer]

I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it...

[Xylthixlm]

But seriously. Your argument opens the way to massive scum WIFOM gambits. At the very most, you should give Der Hammer enough townie credit to cancel out the miller claim; no more. "Don't lynch him ever" is right out.

[Ectomancer]

But seriously. Your argument opens the way to massive scum WIFOM gambits. At the very most, you should give Der Hammer enough townie credit to cancel out the miller claim; no more. "Don't lynch him ever" is right out.

There is no giving 'townie credit' here. Here and now we make our decision as town. What we won't have is leaving this up in the air, and here is why:

1: If we don't believe him, he is scum, we lynch him here today after we are content with the discussion.

2: If we believe him, we make a pact as town here and now not to lynch him...at all. That pact forces scum to deal with him. They cant afford to go into endgame with what we are essentially deciding is a confirmed townie. It also presents the possibility of blocking a NK somewhere along the way, or, our boy gets into endgame. Also, making the pact means we wont have to worry about our power roles going crosspurposes, Doc/Vig being a simple example (no, not saying we have them). We cant waver on this. Once the decision is made, we stand solid on it.

3: If we believe him, but can't reach a consensus to never lynch him, then we kill him today. Scum has to

know

that we wont lynch him, else they dont have to bother to waste a NK on someone they know we will lynch. Keeping him around has dubious value. Cut him loose while we have elbow room to do it.


So here's the time for the Poker fans. #1 and #3 are the safe routes. The card flips and he is scum or he is town, either way, the game is not won or lost yet.
#2 is the gamble. Should he prove to be scum, we lose. But...if he is town, there are some tangible benefits to keeping him around and we set scum a task that they have to deal with.

The question is, how good is your gut?

I think I see now why the policy is lynch all claimed millers.

[Der Hammer]

But seriously. Your argument opens the way to massive scum WIFOM gambits. At the very most, you should give Der Hammer enough townie credit to cancel out the miller claim; no more. "Don't lynch him ever" is right out.

There is no giving 'townie credit' here. Here and now we make our decision as town. What we won't have is leaving this up in the air, and here is why:

1: If we don't believe him, he is scum, we lynch him here today after we are content with the discussion.

2: If we believe him, we make a pact as town here and now not to lynch him...at all. That pact forces scum to deal with him. They cant afford to go into endgame with what we are essentially deciding is a confirmed townie. It also presents the possibility of blocking a NK somewhere along the way, or, our boy gets into endgame. Also, making the pact means we wont have to worry about our power roles going crosspurposes, Doc/Vig being a simple example (no, not saying we have them). We cant waver on this. Once the decision is made, we stand solid on it.

3: If we believe him, but can't reach a consensus to never lynch him, then we kill him today. Scum has to

know

that we wont lynch him, else they dont have to bother to waste a NK on someone they know we will lynch. Keeping him around has dubious value. Cut him loose while we have elbow room to do it.


So here's the time for the Poker fans. #1 and #3 are the safe routes. The card flips and he is scum or he is town, either way, the game is not won or lost yet.
#2 is the gamble. Should he prove to be scum, we lose. But...if he is town, there are some tangible benefits to keeping him around and we set scum a task that they have to deal with.

The question is, how good is your gut?

I think I see now why the policy is lynch all claimed millers.

Interesting post, just one point though. You completely ignore the possibility of a cult? This game starting in Day One made me think their might just be a cult in this game, and if you all decide to proceed along with me as a confirmed townie, then that would make me a prime target for a cult to recruit?

[Ectomancer]

This game starting in Day One made me think their might just be a cult in this game

This makes no sense to me.

I guess there could be a cult? No evidence for or against.

[OhGodMyLife]

Cult speculation is a waste of time at this point. Or ever.

[Yosarian2]

There is no giving 'townie credit' here. Here and now we make our decision as town. What we won't have is leaving this up in the air, and here is why:

1: If we don't believe him, he is scum, we lynch him here today after we are content with the discussion.

2: If we believe him, we make a pact as town here and now not to lynch him...at all. That pact forces scum to deal with him. They cant afford to go into endgame with what we are essentially deciding is a confirmed townie. It also presents the possibility of blocking a NK somewhere along the way, or, our boy gets into endgame. Also, making the pact means we wont have to worry about our power roles going crosspurposes, Doc/Vig being a simple example (no, not saying we have them). We cant waver on this. Once the decision is made, we stand solid on it.

Um...that's...insane, Ecto.

Mafia is not a binary game; it's not a matter of "either we 100% totally and completly believe him, or we 100% totally and completly disbelieve him". There's always a chance someone is lying. At the moment, I don't really think der hammer is all that likely to be lying; I'd probably put the odds of him lying low enough so I think he's a worse then a random lynch at this point. That being said, I intend to continue to watch him, and if other evidence makes me more suspicious of him later, I reserve the right to change my mind. That's, you know, how pro-town people should always approach everything, IMHO. Declaring someone totally cleared when there's no actual reason to think they are is a good way for towns to lose.

Also, but what if we need to pressure him again later to start posting? Pressuring him to be more active worked today, but it wouldn't have if everyone had "made a pact to never ever lynch him no matter what" or whatever.

[Yosarian2]

Also, Der Hammer, why are you randomally cult speculating based on no evidence? I would normally consider that a scumtell, but oddly, in this case, the cult speculation only seems to hurt him, so I donno, it's just weird.