Open 105: Crush Mafia (Game Over) before 714

[farside22]

no lynch is not usually helpful.

Thanks nat self voting as usual.

Are you aware this has already been established?


TehVariable, why would the first person to random-vote be scummier than the second person to do so?
Also, I will hereafter be referring to you as TV.

I'm aware and think it's terrible thing to do.

[neko2086]

TV- sorry, I did mean random self-vote. You cited as a reason for voting Ortolan the fact that he self-voted first, and now you're saying that it isn't really scummy. So, can you clarify why you think he's scummy?


Farside- It seems funny that you would bring it up again. It was a completely unnecessary attempt to take heat off that wasn't there.

[farside22]

TV- sorry, I did mean random self-vote. You cited as a reason for voting Ortolan the fact that he self-voted first, and now you're saying that it isn't really scummy. So, can you clarify why you think he's scummy?


Farside- It seems funny that you would bring it up again. It was a completely unnecessary attempt to take heat off that wasn't there.

Read sarcasm in my first post. I wasn't bringing it up because of what was said it was a comment more for Nat and my feelings on it. Nothing more.

[charter]

Vote Count:

ortolan - 1 (ortolan)
TehVariable - 1 (populartajo)
No Lynch - (Darox)
populartajo - (neko2086)

Not Voting: (3)

Crazy
farside22
TehVariable

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!
Need to

Unvote

before you vote again.

[TehVariable]

TV- sorry, I did mean random self-vote. You cited as a reason for voting Ortolan the fact that he self-voted first, and now you're saying that it isn't really scummy. So, can you clarify why you think he's scummy?

I don't think he's overly scummy. But there isn't much better out there at the time. Self voting in random phase deprives town of some information.

[Crazy]

TV- sorry, I did mean random self-vote. You cited as a reason for voting Ortolan the fact that he self-voted first, and now you're saying that it isn't really scummy. So, can you clarify why you think he's scummy?

I don't think he's overly scummy. But there isn't much better out there at the time. Self voting in random phase deprives town of some information.

Ironically, sometimes the discussion of a self-vote leads to more information than a random vote.

Also,

Vote: Darox

, at least until he answers the question about No-Lynch.

[ortolan]

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.

Crappy argument. Explain to me how it's not a reasonable and expected question in an open setup, and why I wouldn't just pm the mod instead if I were the lyncher to avoid giving away lyncher-tells to such perceptive types as you

[farside22]

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.

Crappy argument. Explain to me how it's not a reasonable and expected question in an open setup, and why I wouldn't just pm the mod instead if I were the lyncher to avoid giving away lyncher-tells to such perceptive types as you

Well then mafia who forgot to ask the question? I mean really anyone can PM a mod and ask a question.

[populartajo]

Hi everyone.
unvote:

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.
@tajo: It was a direct question in regards to lyncher. Mafia tend to be able to talk for the first 24 hours in most games to get idea on who is who and what to say. Don't know if this game is different. Anyways if not then they probably asked would ask the mod via PM instead of in thread.
TehVariable; Why Nat over ortolan's self vote?

What are you talking about farside?
Neko, I assume yours is a random vote?

[ortolan]

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.

Crappy argument. Explain to me how it's not a reasonable and expected question in an open setup, and why I wouldn't just pm the mod instead if I were the lyncher to avoid giving away lyncher-tells to such perceptive types as you

Well then mafia who forgot to ask the question? I mean really anyone can PM a mod and ask a question.

Um...what? It was clearly a question about the setup, people can read too much into things

[farside22]

pop: This was your question:

We begin, Crazy? Why wouldn't scum post that?

My answer was in the quote:

Um...what? It was clearly a question about the setup, people can read too much into things

Why did you feel the need to ask the question?

[populartajo]

pop: This was your question:

We begin, Crazy? Why wouldn't scum post that?

My answer was in the quote:

Um...what? It was clearly a question about the setup, people can read too much into things

Why did you feel the need to ask the question?

So, you dont think scum could have made that question to look like a lyncher?
In all fairness, that question seems odd, really odd.
Crazy, you havent even looked at my post. Are you the lyncher?

[ortolan]

Why did you feel the need to ask the question?

It is extremely, extremely relevant to the game dynamics considering this is an open setup. I'm not discussing my pre-game question again, use it as a basis for suspicion of me and you can expect me to vote you

[neko2086]

Yes pop, that was a random vote.

And as to ortolan's setup question, I can most certainly understand why he would ask it. What he's looking at is that as the rules stand, because they're still vague, if the lyncher wins they are able to play however they choose. They're pretty much a wildcard, and they could be a liability to either side.

It's still quite possible that ortolan asked the question as scum to try to figure out whether he should be looking for the lyncher, but I don't think it's necessarily a scummy thing to ask. I doubt he's the lyncher, but that's just a gut feeling.

[Crazy]

So, you dont think scum could have made that question to look like a lyncher?
In all fairness, that question seems odd, really odd.
Crazy, you havent even looked at my post. Are you the lyncher?

No, I'm not. I'm town. And yes, ortolan asking that question was just fine. My comment was within the spirit of the RVS.

[ortolan]

Not enough content so far, beyond suspicious degrees of suspicion being placed on my setup question and a generic discussion of self-voting, so I will provide some:

TehVariable was obviously very careless to tunnel on Natirasha's self-vote when mine was in the post *directly before* his

Love how he left ortolan out of the ecuation for doing the same thing Nat did.

Oh...so he did.

Unvote, Vote ortolan

First one to do it logic? Then again, Natirasha's self vote was weirder...ah well, I like the logic of first.

Anyway, tajo, any other reason to real vote me beyond that oversight of mine?

Changing your justification post-hoc like this looks scummy.

Nat always self-votes himself. Whether it's productive or not can be debated, but he always does this, so it's never scummy.

Hmm...well...if he always does it...

And ortolan just changed his random vote, so we get that slight benefit.

Unvote

for now and we'll see what comes up.

Thanks for clarifying that, Crazy.

Withdraws his vote quicker than a flash. Not sure how to interpret at this point.

In Post 30 I jokingly vote Darox for his no lynch vote.

Crazy interprets it seriously and asks why I'd want to lynch the lyncher in Post 33.

Post 41:

Hi there. I will post a little later this evening, but with a cursory glance, I'd just like to comment that lynching a lyncher doesn't necessarily help us. That seems like an odd initial reaction.

A reply to something I didn't actually say...

Firstly my vote was intended as a joke. Secondly even if it had been serious I wonder why it would be interpreted as suspicious- the lyncher is an element of the game- to ignore them entirely seems unfair to the setup.

And furthermore you're making an entirely bizarre link that joke-voting for a potential lyncher entails actually wanting to lynch that person on the basis of them being the lyncher, regardless of what further discussion may reveal about whether it's in fact beneficial to lynch the lyncher. I don't see how this follows at all.

Post 42, farside22's first contribution which simply reiterates two points already made:

Hi everyone.
unvote:

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.
@tajo: It was a direct question in regards to lyncher. Mafia tend to be able to talk for the first 24 hours in most games to get idea on who is who and what to say. Don't know if this game is different. Anyways if not then they probably asked would ask the mod via PM instead of in thread.
TehVariable; Why Nat over ortolan's self vote?

1) Back to setup question.

2) TehVariable targetting Nat over me.

I am still suspicious of people drawing attention to my setup question- it looks perfectly innocuous to me when I re-read it. I don't think a townie would make a big deal out of it. I see farside therefore as trying to ride on points others have already made, regardless of their validity. Same with the attitude to TehVariable. Scum often try to join bandwagons started by townies- in this case this seems a good explanation because I think the bandwagon (on me at least) had little validity and so anyone joining it must have a vested interest.

In Post 60 farside asks the question:

Why did you feel the need to ask the question?

Which I am suspicious of- it seems asking the question revealed an aspect of the setup that wasn't clear to begin with. And it is an open setup, so there is interest in everyone knowing precisely what rules we're playing with. Unless farside already knew the answer to my question somehow, which I doubt, surely the answer to why I asked the question (to clarify game dynamics for *everyone*) is obvious.

Then populartajo says in Post 61:

In all fairness, that question seems odd, really odd.

I disagree, and you get a + to scum likelihood for this (for the same reasons to farside).

I am also curious as to why you think this, from Post 36:

Crazy is prob town or the lyncher. Okbaythx.

[TehVariable]

Changing your justification post-hoc like this looks scummy.

I can only say random vote phase

Also, can someone quote for me the set up question that seems to be causing a bandwagon?

[ortolan]

I can only say random vote phase

Random vote phases only apply to random votes. As of Post 22:

Vote Natirasha

Why would any one even vote for themselves ever? It's pretty much counterproductive and leaves no information.

You were no longer random-voting, as you'd given reasons for your vote (hence it not being "random")

Also, can someone quote for me the set up question that seems to be causing a bandwagon?

One question just on the setup:

If the lyncher lynches their intended target does the game continue to decide 2nd place or end at that point? If the former then the lyncher would seem to be indifferent to who wins as they've already accomplished their win condition?

[charter]

farside22, populartajo, and Darox are being prodded.

[populartajo]

Prodded. Sorry bout that.
Ortolan, the idea behind the oddity of your post is this question: which alignment would post something like that? When you think about it, you say, why would a townie ask a question about the lyncher? I mean, you could but it just felt weird, dont you think? And things get worst when you think that why would the lyncher ask a question openly in thread? Then you start thinking ift scum could prob have done that to look like helpful townie.
So the question is why did you do that? What were the motives for doing that? Do you agree it looks weird if you were another player?
............
The Crazy comment was based in the fact that I like his reasoning, therefore he isnt scum, therefore hes prob town or lyncher.

[ortolan]

I mean, you could but it just felt weird, dont you think?

No.

Do you agree it looks weird if you were another player?

No.

The Crazy comment was based in the fact that I like his reasoning, therefore he isnt scum, therefore hes prob town or lyncher.

I don't see why the lyncher would be more inclined to use "good reasoning" than scum. Part of the thing about the lyncher is we don't know how they'll play it- they might actually not try to fulfill their win condition and hope their target gets NK'ed so they can play as a townie, or they might bide their time until day 2 to try to get their target lynched (in which case it seems possible this will entail scum getting 2nd place by virtue of the lyncher's work). The fact it's such a confusing role is why I asked for clarification in the first place.

[farside22]

Received prod. Will have more time tomorrow to catch up. Thanks

[Darox]

Unvote

We shouldn't be trying to lynch the lyncher. We should be trying to lynch the mafia. Obviously we need to keep an eye out for lyncher tells so we don't let them win the game, but aside from that we should ignore him and focus on finding the mafia, which are a much bigger threat.

[TehVariable]

You were no longer random-voting, as you'd given reasons for your vote (hence it not being "random")

That's arguable. The reasons were weak. It was a non random random, so to speak.

I don't think the set up question was scummy, but I'm leaning ortolan being the lyncher. This however:

We shouldn't be trying to lynch the lyncher. We should be trying to lynch the mafia. Obviously we need to keep an eye out for lyncher tells so we don't let them win the game, but aside from that we should ignore him and focus on finding the mafia, which are a much bigger threat.

Is precisely right. So even if ort is the lyncher, we shouldn't lynch him based on that.

[farside22]

First off ortolan I started by post by making comments about what has happened thus far in the game. As I have replaced in many games I always do this so if I get lost or forget something (I get into too many games sometimes) I can go back to that comment I made and remind myself of things in the game.
Second the most interesting thing was your comment. However I think scum might ask the question pre-game, but could have not thought about it. So yes it can look like scum trying to find the lyncher to insure they win the game the best they can.
Finally calling people scummy based on your question is OMGUS kind of comment. People are talking about what they find. You will be questioned to death about scummy things. It happens. If you are town you point out things you find scummy (which I note you did but most is based on those who asked you about your comment).
The problem we are running across is focus. Everyone is focused on one person. Unvotes do not help put pressure on people. This game is small enough that pressure votes could flush out the scum.

unvote:
vote: Darox

Who do you find scummy so far and why? What is with the unvote and nothing to follow up with it?