Mini 702--Serum & Steel(The rust has settled/Game Over)

[Porkens]

Why isn't my vote on Illumina? At the very lease, I unvoted and revoted correctly.

[Porkens]

oh, never mind. I forgot that we can't even try to vote and myco the same person, fine.

Unvote
Vote: Vi

[Illumina]

...

Please unvote so Vi isn't in hammer range!

[Porkens]

Absolutely not; I want/have wanted Vi lynched for about 3 (Real-Life) days now.

[Vi]

I'm fairly sure that's not a concern to Porkens at this point.

On the neutral side, his unvote and vote didn't actually do anything...

Question @Illumina: Why are you sticking up for me at this point? ('Not an accusation, just asking.)

[Illumina]

Because I don't believe you're an optimal lynch. It's really unlikely you're mafia (you'd be way too overpowered, it just isn't realistic), and though you could be an SK, I haven't seen any real reason to suspect you as the SK compared to anyone else.

Besides which: though killing an SK would be fine, we're better off going after mafia anyway. And as stated, you don't really fit the bill there. I'm puzzled as to why everyone is voting you and ignoring the people who delayed their claims...

[TonyMontana]

I'm puzzled as to why everyone is voting you and ignoring the people who delayed their claims...

I'm puzzled as to why you keep repeating this line, even though you were the last to claim, and the only one who blatantly delayed.

[Vi]

I'm puzzled as to why everyone is voting you and ignoring the people who delayed their claims...

I'm puzzled as to why you keep repeating this line, even though you were the last to claim, and the only one who blatantly delayed.

I think you know well that Illumina wasn't the only one who blatantly delayed.

[ortolan]

Really should have lynched Vi today, his ability is useless and apart from no longer giving us his views it would not affect the outcome of the game (sorry for triple post)

The same argument could be made for you. With much love.

Um not it definitely couldn't. Few if any doubt that I am town this game. I meant to demonstrate why your post 983 was so wrong but thought it was pointless because you'd already decided to lynch a claimed metal (nice work on that), but it looks like I'll get another chance:

if you're town it's extremely irresponsible to put all 3 votes on L-1, and the fact that you did it immediatly after being voted makes it that more suspicious.

Not really; I've already said why.
All of my votes put someone to at least L-2 anyway.

That's not clear, several people have shown an overeager mentality this game regardless of scumminess- promoting ending the day quickly by putting people on L-1 is not helpful to town.

I'm not at all convinced of TM's scumminess. Look at post 876 where he attacks MafiaSSK long before, for example, I realised MafiaSSK was scum. Porkens had only just placed suspicion on MafiaSSK before that and were TM scum trying to save his buddy he could have simply refrained from posting or focused on something else at that point to avoid bandwagoning his buddy.

rlynao

I do believe you didn't know TE claimed, cause honestly who bothers reading the random stage when replacing. I also believe you were a rolecop. It's just made either irrelevant, or suspicious by the fact that you refuse to quote your role PM.

That's the kindest, gentlest "attack" I've ever seen. obvbus

The fact is it was backed up by a vote at a stage where TM could simply have ignored the wagon. He had previously said he wished they had revoked the serum, and also that he believed MafiaSSK's claim and that he hadn't realised Timeater had already claimed. He then went on to vote him anyway for refusal to quote his role pm. You didn't take account of the context. The fact TM's claim has a lowercase "t" (which you're using as a fairly substantial criterion of towniness) vindicates this to some extent.

I agree, think about what sort of powers scum might get from the serum. If they got an extra night-kill, SURELY the mod would also give them an ability which they could prove they had the next day to avoid making it obvious that the extra night-kill was due to them getting the serum. The double-voting seems a perfect example of this- it's not too strong either. Of course it's also kind of consistent with a metal townie- the mod wouldn't want to make their ability overpowered for town if they're already metal and non-night-killable.

I hope for your sake that you aren't modding any games here or elsewhere in the near future. Quick rundown here.

The personal attack was totally unnecessary because I was not offering my opinions about what *would* make for a balanced game but what is the case this game. And in fact I have seen roles in many games which are much, much more powerful than in any other roles in the game are.

You say I

must

be scum because this setup makes sense:

I never said you *must* be scum.

*Part of being scum means games are usually imbalanced in my favor to start with.

??? Why??? Setups are usually meant to be balanced

*I can already kill someone at night (with a few other people's input) as scum.
*With the serum, I can kill someone ELSE on my own.
*With the serum, I can ALSO doublevote. As scum, this pushes the time when

we

control the majority of the votes (endgame) forward one day.

...

*The serum-fueled kill is perfectly explained by a "falseclaim" of doublevoting, except it's not a falseclaim at all.

I've already explained I don't think it's preposterous, if you did get an extra night-kill then you'd need some way of explaining it.

*Lest you forget, I was metal at the start of the game and basically invincible to any Town vigging, SKs, lynches,

copper bread buns

, or whatever else is out there.

Is this a slip up? The person killed by being sandwiched between two copper bread buns *was* metal, or at least appeared to be so. Therefore you'd be equally vulnerable to it, assuming you're town.

It's also obvious from the claims we've seen that the scum were given at least two fake-claims between them, perhaps communally or perhaps individually.

Obvious? How so?

Because everyone alive has produced claims which were obviously written by the mod, and we know there are at least two scum left.

Furthermore I think for game balance reasons, assuming there is only 3 scum (which there really must be, would be too unbalanced otherwise), then there is/was at least one metal townie, even if Timeater/Vi is actually scum. From that I infer the last two scum probably is/were metal. Tell me if you think that's a bad assumption.

I wouldn't assume it immediately. The easy way to go about this is to synth everyone at this point.

Well, yes, if we have the luxury of synthing everyone this is kind of entailed by what I said. It is totally inconsistent with you opting to waste a lynch on Illumina however.

But, c'mon Vi's jumped around FoSing the townies looking players- CF Riot and TM.

Maybe because I don't see them as townie looking?
Or to put it in a more sanguine manner--

God, CF, if you're scum, I can see you winning this one already. But Ort is just shoveling himself deeper with every single post, so I don't really care!

Nonetheless, you'll notice I still haven't VOTED CF Riot. 'Wonder why that is, mmm?

What does this even mean?

It's possible that CF Riot (and Porkens/TM) have gone to a hugely elaborate gambit with their scumbuddy MafiaSSK and deliberately both tried to not give him the serum day one despite it being randomly chosen, and further bandwagoned him to get him lynched, but if they were clever enough to do this to clear them town never had a chance.

Bussing.

Do you understand it?

The odds of there being scum on the SSK wagon are pretty good. To me, the SSK wagon looked like a follow-the-Porkens-so-we-get-a-lynch deal. Which is why Porkens is very much off my suspect list, and I don't think it helps anyone else.

Again, don't understand what point you're trying to make. You seem to speculate that they were bussing and then say they weren't...

Something that helped me to remember though was: We hung MSSK because of his claimed role and behavior, not his flavor.

Bingo.

Um, ok, so what insights did you gain from this quote?

Two people got the Serum last night - Ort and Vi. If we can possibly assume that only Serraphim had a free ability (to give the serum), as the rules of the game suggest, one of them; Ort and Vi, must have gotten an ability that let them kill Gremwell, even though he was metal.

What makes you so sure that there isn't another person with a non-Vanilla ability? It would make sense for Memnarch (not me) to have it. And it's not like the mod was telling the whole truth the first time...

It is possible.

Another thing to consider - ortolan's claim was

never proven

; in fact it's unprovable. So why is everyone jumping on me for my seruming, again?

So being guaranteed in people's role pms and not being counter-claimed isn't very good proof I am town? It's virtually like being confirmed by the mod. I don't know how you could think it's "unprovable"

IIRC, Vi has also pushed for getting the serum.

No, I didn't. I was the one saying

there's no point in me getting the serum

, as I didn't see anything in my Role PM that hinted at what would happen.

Timeater certainly did, even if you didn't

If Vi flips town; I think we have lost this one, but I don't see a good alternative. You are more likely town than Vi, so I'm putting all my eggs in one basket.

Why?
Until ortolan claimed Glissa Sunseeker, you and a number of other people wanted ortolan to be shot, in this game and possibly outside it.

What's the relevance of this?

*Why is TonyMontana still alive.

The only reasons offered for lynching him are you saying his "attack" on MafiaSSK wasn't genuine, and perhaps his lurkiness all game. Why are you so sure he's scum?

*ortolan is losing the game for Town again. I'm having a hard time deciding whether Glissa is a falseclaim or not, but I would place him as third to TonyMontana and Illumina.

What have I done today that has been bad play?

Anyhow after dissecting your post I am less inclined to believe you are scum but would still like some answers.

[ortolan]

Unvote lynch

[Porkens]

Deadline is on Sunday. Unless someone posts an earth-shattering case or claims something new, I'm not likely to post again or change my vote except to avoid a misslynch.

Lynch Vi. The simplest explanation for the new kill flavor is a 3rd part killer. That means it's Ort or Vi.

Ort is glissa. If Glissa is some kind of crazy mod-dick flavor tiwst; I don't even care anymore.

Illumina is scum who claimed metal. The claim doesn't make any sense given that all the metals we have seen have been artifacts.

Ger is barely paying attention and has given a scummy claim.

Tony's claim looks bad to me because his flavor is the same as mine, but he is one of the few who's recent posting has made me see him as more pro-town.

CF, I still don't know why getting the serum for the rest of the game would seem bad to me if I were a

tracker

.


but no; it's vi. lynch vi.

[Porkens]

EBWOP:

Deadline is on Sunday. Unless someone posts an earth-shattering case or claims something new, I'm not likely to post again or change my vote except to avoid a

misslynch

no-lynch.

[TonyMontana]

I'm puzzled as to why everyone is voting you and ignoring the people who delayed their claims...

I'm puzzled as to why you keep repeating this line, even though you were the last to claim, and the only one who blatantly delayed.

I think you know well that Illumina wasn't the only one who blatantly delayed.

I don't, actually. I claimed the second time I logged in after my vacation. Only reason I didn't claim the first time, was because Illumina and Porkens requested that I didn't.

[ortolan]

I will wait for Vi to respond before re-voting him, but the fact remains numbers-wise, if we lynch him versus lynching Illumina who I don't really have that much reason to doubt is metal, we will learn a whole lot and the game won't end any earlier (Starting Day 4 with 6 players versus 5 means we are in LyoL no matter what).

CF, I still don't know why getting the serum for the rest of the game would seem bad to me if I were a

tracker

.

I agree, although I suspect he'd just get night-killed if we gave him the serum anyway.

I'm puzzled as to why everyone is voting you and ignoring the people who delayed their claims...

I'm puzzled as to why you keep repeating this line, even though you were the last to claim, and the only one who blatantly delayed.

I think you know well that Illumina wasn't the only one who blatantly delayed.

I don't, actually. I claimed the second time I logged in after my vacation. Only reason I didn't claim the first time, was because Illumina and Porkens requested that I didn't.

I agree, I remember at least one person specifically requesting he not claim until after geraintm.

Also I re-iterate that if the game comes to be won/lost based on what may well be a mod-screw up in writing the fakeclaims it would be a pity. But I definitely think after we myco him today geraintm gets lynched tomorrow assuming some absurdly unexpected night activity. geraintm has seemed highly unwilling to contribute anything to town all game- this coupled with the fake-claim evidence is hard to overlook.

[Porkens]

I will wait for Vi to respond before re-voting him, but the fact remains numbers-wise, if we lynch him versus lynching Illumina

We can't even

try

to lynch illumina. That's why all my votes bounced off.

[Vi]

I'm getting my return post to ortolan ready, so give me a few minutes already.

Sneak preview of what's to come:

But let's go look at the SSK wagon, since you're bringing it up.

*Porkens: Hates SSK's role initially but votes Timeater until his claim came in. Puts SSK and Timeater as one-or-the-other scum, and at first chooses Timeater while synthing SSK. Was on him about having such a lame role all day. Nabs SSK on claiming a true role (by flavor) and proceeds to vote him for the rest of the day.
*Timeater: First person to synth SSK for surviving the night. Starts leaving him alone to mess with the whole serum fiasco.
*Vi: Was willing to give SSK another chance to quote his PM, and gave a few extra chances while fighting Porkens. OMGIS. Denies that giving SSK the serum again would be a good move.
*CF Riot: Initially is against SSK's reluctance to claim, and pressures him to fullclaim in 756. Eventually decided to try synthing SSK and serum-vigging him while not sure of his alignment. As the SSK wagon builds, he seems against his lynch, saying that "SSK will claim as he gets in trouble" (paraphrasing 880).
*ortolan: Initially was okay with SSK not claiming if he thought it was okay. Calls the case on him "implausible" (719) and goes as far as to say that the case on SSK was "paperthin" (864). Defends SSK's choice of Role Cop target in 790, and says that he does not want SSK to have to claim in 793. Reads Gremwell as Town, interesting in light of the kill.
*geraintm: Doesn't say much but express general disapproval of people not saying what their serums did. Says in 751 that SSK could be serum-vigged; I think he's the first person to mention it. Later asks if SSK could be third-party after he refuses to claim. Eventually synths "mafiascum", saying he's not a fan of him, but that's about as harsh as his disapproval ever got.
*TonyMontana: Initially not sure if SSK should claim. Eventually says that SSK shouldn't have been given the serum. Swallows that SSK didn't read the random stage and that he's a Role Cop.

*Porkens: First on the wagon. Has hated SSK for a long time.
*TonyMontana: Second on the wagon. Votes for not quoting his role PM, though he believes it.
*Illumina: Third on the wagon, immediately after TonyMontana. Considers serum-vigging SSK, but votes him for not quoting his role PM.
*Vi: Fourth on the wagon. Has reread and decided that SSK has had way too much time to claim.
*CF Riot: Fifth on the wagon. Just wants to get the actions passed. =S
*ortolan: Sixth and hammerer. Votes SSK because he's not around to do anything (lurking) and to get some actions passed.

Well, the good news for your point of view is that TonyMontana does look better now. The bad news is, the scumpair shifts heavily to

you [ortolan] and geraintm

, with a substantially smaller side order of CF Riot. geraintm is metal. Guess what that means.

[Porkens]

*Porkens: Hates SSK's role initially but votes Timeater until his claim came in. Puts SSK and Timeater as one-or-the-other scum,

I wasn't considering the possibility of a 3rd party.

[Vi]

Um not it definitely couldn't. Few if any doubt that I am town this game. I meant to demonstrate why your post 983 was so wrong but thought it was pointless because you'd already decided to lynch a claimed metal (nice work on that), but it looks like I'll get another chance:

People doubt you're scum

solely

because of your Glissa claim. Read Day 2 again, and see just how much everyone has put you on the shelf because of your Glissa claim. Nobody has questioned your night action, immediately blaming me for the death earlier.

Hmm.

In addition, you DID see

why

I decided to lynch a claimed metal, right?

That's not clear, several people have shown an overeager mentality this game regardless of scumminess- promoting ending the day quickly by putting people on L-1 is not helpful to town.

There's overeager, then there's stupid/opportunistic. What a shame geraintm isn't here to speak for himself.

The fact is it was backed up by a vote at a stage where TM could simply have ignored the wagon. He had previously said he wished they had revoked the serum, and also that he believed MafiaSSK's claim and that he hadn't realised Timeater had already claimed. He then went on to vote him anyway for refusal to quote his role pm. You didn't take account of the context. The fact TM's claim has a lowercase "t" (which you're using as a fairly substantial criterion of towniness) vindicates this to some extent.

Were we right, or were we wrong about reading into the wording of the claims? You decide.
The thing about not knowing Timeater claimed is utter garbage; replacements are expected to read the whole topic to have context for what followed. Never mind that the massive lurking and general unhelpfulness is a very good reason IMO for disliking TonyMontana from the beginning, and almost saw him lynched D2.

<snipping stuff you saw in 1065>

The personal attack was totally unnecessary because I was not offering my opinions about what *would* make for a balanced game but what is the case this game. And in fact I have seen roles in many games which are much, much more powerful than in any other roles in the game are.

So have I; I've seen a Town role that can be activated easily to gain the ability to cancel nights and reveal anyone who uses a night action on him (if they can get it in before he cancels it). Was that game good? No.
Moreover, I trust Natirasha wouldn't put such a horrible role in his game; he's a reasonably active moderator and doesn't have an awful reputation. What's probable, do you think?

I never said you *must* be scum.

But didn't you just say that it made sense for me to be scum with all those powers, and have you expressed interest in an alternative theory?

??? Why??? Setups are usually meant to be balanced

Mountainous (all vanillas) is not balanced, therefore I believe scum has an inherent advantage in games before roles are factored in. This game IS mostly vanilla, realize.
I think there's a related discussion in MD right now about the worth of scum and Town. Mafia can use their planning and knowledge of the setup to defeat the Town more easily than the Town can use their numbers to press the Mafia.

I've already explained I don't think it's preposterous, if you did get an extra night-kill then you'd need some way of explaining it.

And the explanation is preposterous.

Is this a slip up? The person killed by being sandwiched between two copper bread buns *was* metal, or at least appeared to be so. Therefore you'd be equally vulnerable to it, assuming you're town.

It is a slip in that I forgot Gremwell was metal. Good catch.

Because everyone alive has produced claims which were obviously written by the mod, and we know there are at least two scum left.

I was referring more to the "communally" idea, which I don't see much and really don't like personally. 'Not worth talking about; dropping it.

Well, yes, if we have the luxury of synthing everyone this is kind of entailed by what I said. It is totally inconsistent with you opting to waste a lynch on Illumina however.

For the, what, third time - do you realize WHY I did not believe the lynch on Illumina was a waste?

What does this even mean?

I'm defending my stance on CF Riot. I think he's scummy, but not scum.

Again, don't understand what point you're trying to make. You seem to speculate that they were bussing and then say they weren't...

Reading comprehension.

Do you use it?

Again. I believe there was bussing going on. I do not believe Porkens was doing it because he started the wagon.

So being guaranteed in people's role pms and not being counter-claimed isn't very good proof I am town? It's virtually like being confirmed by the mod. I don't know how you could think it's "unprovable"

*Falseclaims.
*

Bastard

Clever modding.
*A night action that is unproveable on the same night as an extra kill.

Timeater certainly did, even if you didn't

At the beginning of D1. O.M.G.

-----

Lynch Vi. The simplest explanation for the new kill flavor is a 3rd part killer. That means it's Ort or Vi.

And considering I have demonstrated my serum ability, I would come to the opposite conclusion.

CF, I still don't know why getting the serum for the rest of the game would seem bad to me if I were a

tracker

.

One kill. Ten players. Let's use some probability here.

-----

I don't, actually. I claimed the second time I logged in after my vacation. Only reason I didn't claim the first time, was because Illumina and Porkens requested that I didn't.

*checks*
...Actually, that's correct. I'm starting to agree with Porkens that--

he is one of the few who's recent posting has made me see him as more pro-town.

-----

I will wait for Vi to respond before re-voting him, but the fact remains numbers-wise, if we lynch him versus lynching Illumina who I don't really have that much reason to doubt is metal, we will learn a whole lot and the game won't end any earlier (Starting Day 4 with 6 players versus 5 means we are in LyoL no matter what).

What, exactly, do you plan on learning from my flip should it be Town? (and it will be)

-----

I wasn't considering the possibility of a 3rd party.

I think you have the least to fear from my analysis.
Nonetheless, I don't think a third party makes sense in this setup.

[Illumina]

Ort: before you lynch Vi, you should be aware that I'm definitely getting synthed today. Thus, geraintm can't be synthd until tomorrow.

However, I think it's very possible geraintm is flesh. If he's flesh scum, there's absolutely no reason not to claim metal so we waste time mycoing him first. It's an obvious move. By the same logic, it's obviously advantageous in every way for metal scum to claim flesh, so we waste time lynching him first. If we lynch geraintm today, we can call his bluff and potentially off a scum.

[Vi]

I just thought of something.
If Mycosynth is what amounts to a parasitic mushroom that feeds on metal... then what sense does a metal Mycosynth Golem make? :v
I'm M:tG-illiterate, so stop me if I'm contradicting canon here, but...

[CF Riot]

CF Riot: Initially is against SSK's reluctance to claim, and pressures him to fullclaim in 756. Eventually decided to try synthing SSK and serum-vigging him while not sure of his alignment. As the SSK wagon builds, he seems against his lynch,

saying that "SSK will claim as he gets in trouble" (paraphrasing 880)

.

The part in bold is a misquote. Ort kept saying we should just wait until SSK showed up and claimed, and I repeatedly told him, as worded from 880, "He won't. It's deadline. He put it of this long for a reason. He probably won't post til tomorrow." I was saying SSK was avoiding claiming intentionally.

Pork/Ort, we can't really do anything about it now, but I'll give my thoughts on the serum situation again. My thinking was that Pork thought his power would be fairly powerful/useful. He's been solidly pro-town to me from the start, so I was all for giving him the serum. I never really was against giving it to me, I only warned that if you did there could be no cold feet tomorrow if something weird happened tonight. I actually almost asked for the serum solely on the idea that whoever gets the serum tonight is a high priority target for scum, and I was still slightly suspect to some people. I figured forcing the scum to attack me might take some stress of the town tomorrow. I just never really argued that point and I guess I should have.

Pork you said something about me (if I were scum) wanting more fleshies for my scum motives. This is flawed in that we've all mass-claimed, so if I were scum I would know who my easy targets were already.

Everything said, I think since our votes are locked on serum/synth, Vi would be a much better lynch today than Geraintm. Yes, it would make sense for Ger to claim steel if he was flesh scum, but I don't see any point in risking it.

Also,

Mod

, I remember this. It sort of conflicts with your ruling now.

Mod:

If Tuber is not getting replaced, can we undo the majority serum vote on him by unvoting/voting a new candidate?

FOR THE FINAL TIME

If you want to change votes, you must unvote.
If you want to change serums, you must unserum.
If you want to change mycosynths, you must unmycosynth.

Mod

Sorry the town is so repetitive. I was just wondering if majorities on serums/mycos were final and unchangable like a majority on lynches. Which I now see they are not.

I'll hammer Vi when everyone is ready. Vi, if you've got last words you better get 'em out there.

[ortolan]

Usually, when something reaches a majority, it can't unreach a majority(I am talking about the fact Illumina reached the mycosynth about 4 pages ago).

I could've sworn I asked about this earlier in the game, and was told that nothing is set in stone until a full majority or deadline. Swear to God, it will take me a year to learn this game

I also thought I specifically remembered that...hmm.

Um not it definitely couldn't. Few if any doubt that I am town this game. I meant to demonstrate why your post 983 was so wrong but thought it was pointless because you'd already decided to lynch a claimed metal (nice work on that), but it looks like I'll get another chance:

People doubt you're scum

solely

because of your Glissa claim. Read Day 2 again, and see just how much everyone has put you on the shelf because of your Glissa claim. Nobody has questioned your night action, immediately blaming me for the death earlier.

Hmm.

I'm well aware I would have come under much greater suspicion were I not Glissa and had not claimed. That doesn't mean it's not very good evidence I am town *specifically because almost everyone's role pm says I am*. And I don't believe anyone has blamed you for Gremwell's death, some such as me have strongly considered the possibility you are responsible however.

In addition, you DID see

why

I decided to lynch a claimed metal, right?

I think so, but would you spell it out please so I can check your argument.

The thing about not knowing Timeater claimed is utter garbage; replacements are expected to read the whole topic to have context for what followed. Never mind that the massive lurking and general unhelpfulness is a very good reason IMO for disliking TonyMontana from the beginning, and almost saw him lynched D2.

That's a fair enough point about TM I suppose, I certainly dislike his lurking.

Was that game good? No.
Moreover, I trust Natirasha wouldn't put such a horrible role in his game; he's a reasonably active moderator and doesn't have an awful reputation. What's probable, do you think?

I actually don't see it as as overpowered as you do, but the discussion of your role is leading nowhere so I'll drop it.

I never said you *must* be scum.

But didn't you just say that it made sense for me to be scum with all those powers, and have you expressed interest in an alternative theory?

Well I certainly don't think I've been tunneling on you. I am suspicious of you placing doubt on me and CF Riot. Me vs CF Riot and Porkens was very prevalent earlier in the game and has turned right around based on their detective work and my roleclaim specifically. You seem to be the only? person who still tries to place suspicion on us.

??? Why??? Setups are usually meant to be balanced

Mountainous (all vanillas) is not balanced, therefore I believe scum has an inherent advantage in games before roles are factored in. This game IS mostly vanilla, realize.
I think there's a related discussion in MD right now about the worth of scum and Town. Mafia can use their planning and knowledge of the setup to defeat the Town more easily than the Town can use their numbers to press the Mafia.

I consider this game *completely* non vanilla actually- the serum is a further twist on the normal rules regarding abilities.

I've already explained I don't think it's preposterous, if you did get an extra night-kill then you'd need some way of explaining it.

And the explanation is preposterous.

Don't think so but am steering away from this line of discussion.

Well, yes, if we have the luxury of synthing everyone this is kind of entailed by what I said. It is totally inconsistent with you opting to waste a lynch on Illumina however.

For the, what, third time - do you realize WHY I did not believe the lynch on Illumina was a waste?

Please indulge me and tell me (again?)

What does this even mean?

I'm defending my stance on CF Riot. I think he's scummy, but not scum.

Well I don't like the word usage then, I would prefer "playing badly for town" if that's what you think.

Again, don't understand what point you're trying to make. You seem to speculate that they were bussing and then say they weren't...

Reading comprehension.

Do you use it?

Again. I believe there was bussing going on. I do not believe Porkens was doing it because he started the wagon.

My comprehension is irrelevant if your post is completely unclear to begin with. I was more thinking that if Porkens and CF Riot were both scum, they would deliberately orchestrate a plan day 2 to bus their buddy out of nothing (which I think is a far-fetched hypothesis). But I see what you mean now. I have no desire to suspect CF Riot- if he's scum, I'll deal with it, but there's a much, much greater probability of others being scum imo.

Lynch Vi. The simplest explanation for the new kill flavor is a 3rd part killer. That means it's Ort or Vi.

And considering I have demonstrated my serum ability, I would come to the opposite conclusion.

I've actually pasted the text after I got serumed. I'm not sure if you have. It would be to see it (again?).

I will wait for Vi to respond before re-voting him, but the fact remains numbers-wise, if we lynch him versus lynching Illumina who I don't really have that much reason to doubt is metal, we will learn a whole lot and the game won't end any earlier (Starting Day 4 with 6 players versus 5 means we are in LyoL no matter what).

What, exactly, do you plan on learning from my flip should it be Town? (and it will be)

Not sure, but as far as I can tell it will finally reveal to us whether or not you're scum and carries no drawbacks apart from you no longer giving us your opinions. Of course it's possible there is another double night-kill but that seems a ridiculously unfair setup to me.

[ortolan]

...still wished we'd synthed geraintm, of the two with erroneous claims he's done a whole lot less this game apart to jump into defend himself

[Illumina]

Wow.

Geraintm has lurked, delayed his claim as long as he could, claimed a weird mycosynth metal golem (ignoring that those two things destroy each other...), and was caught in the act of hammering! What more do we need to see that he's the obvious play for today?

Also, please consider this. If each scum is claiming the opposite of what they really are (metal/flesh), which is an excellent scum play, we're basically screwed (ie, forced into a mylo situation) unless we call the bluff of one scum today. We already know Vi is not metal! He is not the right play right now.

Vote: geraintm

Please respond to this before hammering, we can't afford this type of error.

[ortolan]

If each scum is claiming the opposite of what they really are

Do you think Natirasha gave them custom-made safeclaims depending on what they asked for?

Furthermore why are you so insistent on defending Vi?

And what do you have to say about the capital T in your claim, why would your post be worded differently to everyone else's except geraintm?

Finally, Vi, I don't think you've yet replied as to why you specifically think my play is bad, even today, so when you reply to my last post would you answer that as well?