Mini 690 - Grimmmafia (Game over, the flavor returns...)

[Plum]

With that said, maybe both a town player and a scum player are looking for the same person - fluer as prince looking for princess and evil stepmother looking for princess as you suggested.

That's along the lines of my musings about now, actually. The problem there is that I'd assume

you

to be evil stepmother and not unlikely scum.

Mod edit
Official Votecount:
CoheedCambria09 (3): SpyreX, Plum, MafiaSSK
fleurdelys (1): CoheedCambria09
dahill1 (1): fleurdelys

Not voting (3): bionicchop2, chazworthington, dahill1

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

[SpyreX]

The time to claim,
is that the name of the game?

[bionicchop2]

If my gifting was in any way dangerous, would I openly admit to giving the apples?

as for you admitting to giving the apple, it looks like you claimed it before reading the entire thread

Yes, but if I gave an apple I knew to be poisonous, it would be quite silly to admit targeting plum. When I said I targeted him, I already mentioned there was fruit involved.

[bionicchop2]

With that said, maybe both a town player and a scum player are looking for the same person - fluer as prince looking for princess and evil stepmother looking for princess as you suggested.

That's along the lines of my musings about now, actually. The problem there is that I'd assume

you

to be evil stepmother and not unlikely scum.

If this were the case, there would be a town player targeting the same person and having apples.

My hunch though is a wolf would be targeting the same person I would (if our speculation is correct) and that person would not be a princess.

[bionicchop2]

Also, Plum, if you are going to consider flavor in your assumptions of me being scum, we should look at it closer.

Snow White is poisoned by an apple. It is a single apple. You received a basket of apples. For what you assume to be true, there would need to be a Snow White in the game. May be possible, I don't know. If there is, I have made no attempts to poison her. I am trying to find a sick relative and keep her company.

[bionicchop2]

About 60% done reading.

1. I think sirdan was a good vig choice and he may be scum.

My suspects at this time are wolf (now chaz) and dahill. I haven't put my finger on exact reasons yet, but a general feel through my read.

Oh and not to forget about CC as I wait for the answer to my question.

[chazworthington]

This is taking longer than I expected: Dahill thanks for the reply. I'd still like everyone else to do the same. Given that we don't have alignments, I think we need to step out of the box a bit.

First, I'm making the assumption that Gorrad is not scum. Post 551 is a big mess of WIFOM, but I am reading some honest frustration in that post.

Assuming Gorrad is town, I think we can start to speculate how scum would react. The general case, in my experience at least, is that scum split their votes: some will be on the wagon of the lynchee and some won't. In a normal game, scum will be forced to make difficult decisions as to when to get on a wagon and whether they should get off. But what makes those decisions difficult is that in the end statuses are revealed. And ultimately, all players should be held accountable for their actions.

Now, once Gorrad claims the scum learn that if he is lynched then there are no consequences to their actions. Suddenly there is no pressure. If we have two scum, I think there's a very good possibility both of them went on Gorrad's wagon. If we have three it's a little more questionable but I think at least two would be on that wagon.

This is not to say that traditional scumhunting shouldn't be done, but it's going to be harder to form conclusions. I think my starting point is the town's best place to look for scum.

FoS: Cohhed, Spy, dahill

I really wanted to post this after everyone answered, but I don't want to wait much longer to start discussing this.

@plum regarding the scum/town ratio - it's possible. Hence why I asked about typical number of scum in mini theme games wihth fewer than 12 players. Again, not trying to play out-guess the mod, but in her workup for Mushroom Kingdom Mafia she ran a "quickest win for town/scum" analysis. I believe that one did have a possible route for the scum to win after N2 for MKM, but she considered the possibility remote. Again, that was a large game and I can see why a mod would be more concerned with a large game ending after two voting rounds rather than a mini game. My main concen was getting everyone to think before they bold vote from here on in.

[SpyreX]

Gorrad (6): CoheedCambria09, wolframnhart, SpyreX, sirdanilot, Porkens, dahill1

Now, once Gorrad claims the scum learn that if he is lynched then there are no consequences to their actions. Suddenly there is no pressure. If we have two scum, I think there's a very good possibility both of them went on Gorrad's wagon. If we have three it's a little more questionable but I think at least two would be on that wagon.

This is not to say that traditional scumhunting shouldn't be done, but it's going to be harder to form conclusions. I think my starting point is the town's best place to look for scum. FoS: Cohhed, Spy, dahill I really wanted to post this after everyone answered, but I don't want to wait much longer to start discussing this.

If his role was true,
it hurt the scum too.

It has to be why I am living,
because protection may be thrilling.

However two could be,
on that lynch we did see.

Needless to say,
sirdan felt that way.

On the other side,
Porkens was fried.

His death isn't dumb,
for me it clears Plum.

CC I do feel,
has scum on his wheel.

Dahill needs to claim,
I already know his name.

On that topic,
claiming soon is tropic.

I am all but proven a killer,
Am I town is a thriller?

However even if you think I am not,
still then I'd be an SK shot.

That leave you yourself,
you tricksy little elf.

My opinion is null,
Even though you're not dull.

So for now I demur,
I do believe fleur.

Plum is ok,
thats what I say.

If dahill will claim,
it helps his name.

I know me,
thats who I be!

So my numbers are reduced,
to who gets the noose.

[fleurdelys]

Gorrad the narrator... yes, he had some scummy moments like everybody else did and I must agree that there were dangerously many of them one after another; however, I did not vote for him mainly because he claimed and he claimed to be the Narrator. He described his role as a quite important and I thought it would be bad to simply get rid of him because he might have been really important for the town.
Also, Gorrad was not the only FoS we had, so it was not like there was nobody else to consider scum. I really didn't like the fact that when the town was trying to think logically, dahill just put this elimination process.

[CoheedCambria09]

@Bio- It said in his sig. that he was leaving mafiascum. That's how I knew, and asked how long it would take to get a replacement.

[bionicchop2]

@Bio- It said in his sig. that he was leaving mafiascum. That's how I knew, and asked how long it would take to get a replacement.

Accepted!

Doesn't mean you aren't scum, but that was the only reason I could think of that wouldn't seem off to me.

[dahill1]

Also, Plum, if you are going to consider flavor in your assumptions of me being scum, we should look at it closer.

Snow White is poisoned by an apple. It is a single apple. You received a basket of apples. For what you assume to be true, there would need to be a Snow White in the game. May be possible, I don't know. If there is, I have made no attempts to poison her. I am trying to find a sick relative and keep her company.

never mind i can start to see where your claim might fit in

@spyre: i'm pretty sure you know my role and can understand my frustruations..
that being said i think i will claim.
I'm Cinderella. that is the reason i defended fleur so much! i knew as soon as she claimed that she was looking for me. also, some more beneficial info: in my PM it hints that one of the scum is my stepmother.
i see no reason to give any more information on my role (regarding missions and such), atm.

[bionicchop2]

OK, with what Dahill has said in mind, here are my thoughts:

I think there are 3 "pairs"

gretel / hansel
prince / cinderella
me / person I am looking for

There is possibly / probably a scum for each pair (3 scum) whose actual role is somebody that would target the person being looked for. Plum - could you ask Porkens if his role implies a role which might be scum (i.e. witch)?

Now, what I don't have a guess for is how scum safe claims would fit into this. Is there a 4th pairing and a 3rd individual (rumple, narrator, + ???). Not going to speculate too much there.

There is a natural nemesis for the person I am looking for, so it would fit into my thinking.

[dahill1]

yup
i'm actually weighing the possibilities of a name claim right now from SSK, Chaz, and CC
it could give us a lot of new info

[bionicchop2]

yup
i'm actually weighing the possibilities of a name claim right now from SSK, Chaz, and CC
it could give us a lot of new info

Based on this it looks like you have figured mine out. I haven't really worked too hard to conceal it.

[dahill1]

yup
i'm actually weighing the possibilities of a name claim right now from SSK, Chaz, and CC
it could give us a lot of new info

Based on this it looks like you have figured mine out. I haven't really worked too hard to conceal it.

yep..
now is everyone starting to see why i suspected them by process of elimination before??

[bionicchop2]

Since I am jumping back and forth (trying to read current posts while finishing my read of old posts), I am noting that Wolfman was very 'go with the flow' in his suspicions and was not very proactive in the game. I am marking him for reread in isolation.

Dahill was on the same list, but his recent role claim sits well with me for the time being.

[bionicchop2]

Note: I keep forgetting about kloud who frequently pops in for "sorry RL is kicking my ass" posts.

[dahill1]

oh yeah in case anyone's not convinced by my role, i just remembered i had breadcrumbed it:

as much as i hate these types of posts, i don't have much to add.
waiting for the kloud replacement.
to reiterate, i don't think CC's questioning of 3rd parties was a

slip, per

say. but rather he could have possibly been rolefishing as scum for a SK.

bolded the crumb.

[bionicchop2]

Sorry for the bits and pieces. Don't have time to focus on one thing before I head back to work and wasn't planning on making a case yet. Just pointing out some things I find as I read.

vote Gorrad
I have to agree with dahill1 here. I really didn't find gorrad scummy, but his recent posting hasn't helped him much in my mind and his stance of "i know what i am doing" when asked about how his "i am important" was different from Fleurs.

Here is an example of what I was mentioning about wolf. His vote is in the same post where he says he wasn't finding a player scummy.

[SpyreX]

I think we agree,
about wolf and cc.

However I feel,
cc is the deal.

If dahills implies mother,
bio's would bad wolf brother?

Then the third little twich,
would be the witch.

[bionicchop2]

If dahills implies mother,
bio's would bad wolf brother?

I suspect, but I am the searcher and not the person searched for. Dahill is the one being looked for in his claim and he is the one with the information he says about who is scummy.

=================

Other game thoughts:

I would like to know the final reasoning why people voted Gorrad. It is not that there was a mislynch - those happen all the time. His claim was confirmable. Having scum whose death removed vital game information makes zero sense IMO. How close was the deadline when this happened?

- yes, I know biohazard pushed this lynch fairly hard and I obviously don't think everybody who voted Gorrad is scum. I just find it odd that nobody is questioning the lynch from the previous day. Even though Gorrad's alignment is not show, it seems pretty clear he can't be scum. That would be a harsh penalty for playing properly and lynching eliminating a player who is part of your win condition.

[SpyreX]

I would like to know the final reasoning why people voted Gorrad. It is not that there was a mislynch - those happen all the time. His claim was confirmable. Having scum whose death removed vital game information makes zero sense IMO. How close was the deadline when this happened?

The claim didn't make sense,
I didn't expect the consequence.

I suspect, but I am the searcher and not the person searched for. Dahill is the one being looked for in his claim and he is the one with the information he says about who is scummy.

Who you're looking for is clear,
Hopefully they'll speak up near.

I'm trying to give direction,
by surmising a connection.

Wolf, Witch and Mother
Those would be the evil brothers.

[dahill1]

The claim didn't make sense,
I didn't expect the consequence.

basically this. i truly thought he was scum going for a gambit that his death would bring a noreveal. i didn't doubt he would be able to confirm his ability, but it is also an ability that scum have commonly had in the past

also a little clarification for my role, it doesn't straight up say "the stepmother is scum", but it does hint at it a little. i'll try to paraphrase it so i don't get modkilled. basically it says that i would be in trouble if my stepmother finds out that i'm not at home

[Plum]

Sorry for the bits and pieces. Don't have time to focus on one thing before I head back to work and wasn't planning on making a case yet. Just pointing out some things I find as I read.

vote Gorrad
I have to agree with dahill1 here. I really didn't find gorrad scummy, but his recent posting hasn't helped him much in my mind and his stance of "i know what i am doing" when asked about how his "i am important" was different from Fleurs.

Here is an example of what I was mentioning about wolf. His vote is in the same post where he says he wasn't finding a player scummy.

I honestly didn't much like Wolf's play with the Gorrad lynch either - besides this, he didn't comment on the claim while keeping his vote on Gorrad and lurked/didn't post through the lynch.

I think with the number of partnered roles, roles that might hint at scum names (

yes

, I do remember Pie Is Good, of course), not to mention the number of people who have already claimed their rolenames, it might be a decent idea to do a mass nameclaim. Thoughts/objections?