Mini 702--Serum & Steel(The rust has settled/Game Over)

[TonyMontana]

I don't see why we shouldn't.

[Illumina]

You are a Nim Lasher, Town-aligned Lasher. You hail from the Mephidross swamp, which has been increasingly threatened by the overlord Memnarch. Perhaps this elf woman you've heard rumors about would make a suitable ally for overthrowing Memnarch.
Abilities: You are metal. You cannot be killed in any way.
Win Condition: You win when you are the last faction remaining.

[CF Riot]

Unvote. Vote: Vi

I'm blaming Grem's death on you. I think Ort is Glissa. You were the other one to be serumed last night. I still like my synth on Geraintm.

Ort, I had thought I would get cop, but it turned out I got tracker. I tracked Wall-E the night he died. He didn't target anyone.

On the claims.
Nim Lasher is a black card (bad omen) and the flavor text says "The rotting metal feeds the necrogen mists, and in turn the mists feed the nim." This implies metal (Memnarch's side) is a good thing for Nim Lasher. It also doesn't look like Nim Lasher is a metal creature, although Illumina claims steel.

Moriok Scavenger is also black. "Many go to Mephidross in search of lost riches. Most end up as part of the cache." I can't read anything from this.

Mycosynth Golem is an artifact card with no flavor text.

[Vi]

Unvote. Vote: Vi

I'm blaming Grem's death on you. I think Ort is Glissa. You were the other one to be serumed last night. I still like my synth on Geraintm.

Is that so?~ But haven't I already told you what my serum power has done?

Vote

x2

(Lynch): TonyMontana
Vote

x2

(Serum): Porkens
Vote

x2

(Mycosynth): Illumina

tbqh I find you (CF Riot) to be most suspicious; at the same time your claim has been demonstrated well enough that there's no sense in arguing against it. Thus I will choose those who hesitated least.

----

General FYI: 'Deadline's in four days.

[Vi]

Actually, rereading I think I've changed my mind.

Unvote

x2

(Mycosynth): Illumina
Vote

x2

(Mycosynth): geraintm

[TonyMontana]

Whoa whoa.

Ok, what happened being worried about a "quicklynch", Vi?

As soon as a speck of pressure gets on you, you're quick to put 3 people on L-1

[Illumina]

I agree,

FoS: Vi

for putting TM so close to hammer.

CF: Wait, so I'm scum just because my card is black? Also, Nim Lashers are metal creatures, according to wikipedia (and no, I didn't edit the page): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sp ... hering#Nim. Please don't try to misconstrue my role with selective quoting. Or is it advantageous for you to get rid of a metal town at this juncture?

[Vi]

@TonyMontana:

*Everyone has claimed.
*I believe Porkens, ortolan, and (against my better judgment) CF Riot.
*I have immediate reason to disbelieve you, Illumina, and geraintm.
*Between the three in the latter category, upon rereading I'm more comfortable with Illumina.
*Scum generally don't quickhammer their partners; besides, all the information we can get is here (that was the major reason I didn't want anyone to prematurely end the day) and the quickhammerer will look poor going into tomorrow anyway.
*CF Riot disbelieves my serum claim, which is somewhat understandable in the sense it hasn't been "proven" yet. (To contrast, you don't.) This should prove it for yas.
*'No sense in not taking a stand when I feel I've made an informed decision.

Show me why someone else is a better lynch (myself included, although you shouldn't expect my vote to follow in that case), or jump in a noose. Those are your options.

----

I'm having a second thought, regarding giving the serum to CF Riot the Tracker instead. Thoughts?

[Porkens]

Unvote. Vote: Vi

I'm blaming Grem's death on you. I think Ort is Glissa. You were the other one to be serumed last night. I still like my synth on Geraintm.

Is that so?~ But haven't I already told you what my serum power has done?

Vote

x2

(Lynch): TonyMontana
Vote

x2

(Serum): Porkens
Vote

x2

(Mycosynth): Illumina

tbqh I find you (CF Riot) to be most suspicious; at the same time your claim has been demonstrated well enough that there's no sense in arguing against it. Thus I will choose those who hesitated least.

----

General FYI: 'Deadline's in four days.

unvote

You call CF "the most suspicious," but you don't vote for him. I know: cliams blah blah blah.

I don't have time to digest what's happened in the last few hours; busy day at work, but I want to have input before a lynch.

[CF Riot]

If you give me the serum today you MUST give it to me tomorrow or it's game over for town (unless we hit scum today and tomorrow, which is possible.) I'd like to give Pork a chance to use his power if he wants it, but in the event that we hit scum today the tracker power would be good tonight in that it could clear someone (if I live.) If we don't hit scum, it's WIFOMy because a null result could mean the partner sent the kill.

Vi, I don't doubt you can double vote, but Triskelion was a 3 armed robo-thingy. It also said he could fire off arms to kill creatures. It made flavor sense to me that if the serum activated your arms, you could've fired off one at Grem and used the other today to gain double-voting.

TM I actually think you're only at L-2 since I unvoted.

Illumina I was not calling you scum. I haven't voted you or tried to synth you. I'm merely explaining my take on your claim. If you'll notice, TM's card is black too, so that's not really a point against you any more than him. Also I just looked up SSK's card for the first time and it was blue like mine, so color isn't a huge factor but it's something to consider. I didn't "selectively quote" anything. I went by what I read. The passage you linked to

sort of

implies metal. It also says your character is in constant conflict with the Aurioks, which is what Wall-E was. It also says you are controlled by Geth, the same person who supposedly told TM to kill Glissa. I think these are more points against you than what I brought up earlier. So maybe I am calling you scum now.

I'm going to totally flip flop on my earlier prediction and go with a new guess of Vi + Illumina team, which would explain his baseless defense of her when he first replaced into the game and post 954. The thing that troubles me here is Illumina's town cred from when she suggested redoing the serum N1 still hangs in the back of my mind. All in all I'm really confused and I think I need to post less and let my fellow townies back me up, but that's just not my style. =P

Unsynth. Synth: Illumina.

[Vi]

If you give me the serum today you MUST give it to me tomorrow or it's game over for town (unless we hit scum today and tomorrow, which is possible.) I'd like to give Pork a chance to use his power if he wants it, but in the event that we hit scum today the tracker power would be good tonight in that it could clear someone (if I live.) If we don't hit scum, it's WIFOMy because a null result could mean the partner sent the kill.

'Didn't consider the partner deal. All right, cancel that idea, although I hope Porkens has something good coming.

Vi, I don't doubt you can double vote, but Triskelion was a 3 armed robo-thingy. It also said he could fire off arms to kill creatures. It made flavor sense to me that if the serum activated your arms, you could've fired off one at Grem and used the other today to gain double-voting.

Hmm... That makes some flavor sense, true. But that would also mean that I'm liekwhoaverpowered as a role - an extra NK

and

a scum-doublevote, seriously?

TM I actually think you're only at L-2 since I unvoted.

I believe this is correct.

Illumina I was not calling you scum. I haven't voted you or tried to synth you. I'm merely explaining my take on your claim. If you'll notice, TM's card is black too, so that's not really a point against you any more than him. Also I just looked up SSK's card for the first time and it was blue like mine, so color isn't a huge factor but it's something to consider. I didn't "selectively quote" anything. I went by what I read. The passage you linked to

sort of

implies metal. It also says your character is in constant conflict with the Aurioks, which is what Wall-E was. It also says you are controlled by Geth, the same person who supposedly told TM to kill Glissa. I think these are more points against you than what I brought up earlier. So maybe I am calling you scum now.

Flavor logic again - and it counts for more than actually reading the thread for these last 900some posts? I can only buy this up to a point.
Incidentally, you realize that at least one (and probably two) of the three PM quotes we just got are falseclaims, right? Do you really think that part of the function of a falseclaim is to crumb an actual scum PM? It's not like anyone's going to claim Memnarch right now.

I'm going to totally flip flop on my earlier prediction and go with a new guess of Vi + Illumina team, which would explain his baseless defense of her when he first replaced into the game and post 954. The thing that troubles me here is Illumina's town cred from when she suggested redoing the serum N1 still hangs in the back of my mind. All in all I'm really confused and I think I need to post less and let my fellow townies back me up, but that's just not my style. =P

Oh don't worry, you don't post enough as it is.
Meanwhile, considering

you

're the one who showed me why Illumina was probably Town by the serum wagon, I'm not sure why you're bashing me for coming to the same conclusion upon rereading - because your most recent flavor logic contradicts it!

One more note, if you're into flavor and gaming the setup. You'll notice that SSK, noted scum, let a quote from his true role slip and was caught on that, and then refused to quote his own role PM. 'Sound accurate so far? Now remember when and what Timeater claimed without hesitation on Page 3. It's quite possible that one reason why we may have gotten so much stalling is that they were waiting on Nati to put out falseclaims. WIFOM, you cry? Only as much as what you're doing.

---

You call CF "the most suspicious," but you don't vote for him. I know: cliams blah blah blah.

That about sums it up. If it were not that I don't think his claim is false, I would be voting him to hell and back right now.

[CF Riot]

@Vi on your second to last paragraph I had actually considered that. So I don't cry WIFOM at you because I went through the same thought process.
The paragraph before that one doesn't make sense.

Meanwhile, considering you're the one who showed me why Illumina was probably Town by the serum wagon, I'm not sure why you're bashing me for coming to the same conclusion upon rereading - because your most recent flavor logic contradicts it!

If you formed a town opinion of Illumina based on what I said, it should've occured before you placed that vote. I'm also not against your opinion of her now, I'm more worried about when you first replaced TE, and declared Illumina to be townish when she had posted very very little.

[Vi]

If you formed a town opinion of Illumina based on what I said, it should've occured before you placed that vote.

orly
The reason I immediately voted Illumina for the mycosynth was because she was one of the two who hesitated to claim. I looked into their activity elsewhere; geraintm is the one who did not stall before claiming, and has the most likely alibi (that is, he's least likely to have been intentionally stalling). (This doesn't necessarily make him Town, but it does make his claim somewhat more reputable... which begs the question of why I'm synthing him, since his claim actually makes setup sense and isn't an obvious vanilla-ish cover...)

Hold that thought.

Unvote

x2

(Mycosynth): geraintm
Vote

x2

(Mycosynth): Illumina

I'm also not against your opinion of her now, I'm more worried about when you first replaced TE, and declared Illumina to be townish when she had posted very very little.

I can't really defend that, except to say that it was late at night and I was fed up with reading this topic twenty pages before I finally quit (still somewhere in D1). You asked me why I thought Illumina was Town soon afterward, and upon rereading I couldn't really find anything to back it up, so I retracted that stance.

tbqh I'm not sure about either of them any more, as geraintm passes the claim test (somewhat) and Illumina passes the serum test (somewhat). TonyMontana fails both and more!

Meanwhile, considering you're the one who showed me why Illumina was probably Town by the serum wagon, I'm not sure why you're bashing me for coming to the same conclusion upon rereading - because your most recent flavor logic contradicts it!

The

[above]

doesn't make sense.

It appears that the only problem you have with Illumina is flavor-based. That's REALLY weak. Do you have other reasons for suspecting Illumina in particular? And whatever happened to TonyMontana?

[Nicol Bolas]

Vote Count
Vi(1): CF Riot
TonyMontana(2): Vi
Not Voting(5): Illumina, TonyMontana, Porkens, geraintm, ortolan

Serum Count
Porkens(3): CF Riot, Vi
Not Seruming(5): Illumina, TonyMontana, Porkens, geraintm, ortolan

Synth Count
Illumina(3): Vi, CF Riot
Not Synthing(5): Illumina, TonyMontana, Porkens, geraintm, ortolan

To establish majority: 4
Deadline: Sunday, December 14th

[Porkens]

Okay! A vote count that confirms Vi's double votes; that's part of what I was waiting for. I'll do a solid post with my votes soon...ish (tonight)

[TonyMontana]

TM I actually think you're only at L-2 since I unvoted.

I believe this is correct.

No I had another vote on me.

[TonyMontana]

EBWOP: That would be Porkens, who unvoted promptly after.

No, you had it right the first time Vi: if you're town it's extremely irresponsible to put all 3 votes on L-1, and the fact that you did it immediatly after being voted makes it that more suspicious.

[ortolan]

meh, I will give my thoughts:

I'm not at all convinced of TM's scumminess. Look at post 876 where he attacks MafiaSSK long before, for example, I realised MafiaSSK was scum. Porkens had only just placed suspicion on MafiaSSK before that and were TM scum trying to save his buddy he could have simply refrained from posting or focused on something else at that point to avoid bandwagoning his buddy.

On the claims.
Nim Lasher is a black card (bad omen) and the flavor text says "The rotting metal feeds the necrogen mists, and in turn the mists feed the nim." This implies metal (Memnarch's side) is a good thing for Nim Lasher. It also doesn't look like Nim Lasher is a metal creature, although Illumina claims steel.

Moriok Scavenger is also black. "Many go to Mephidross in search of lost riches. Most end up as part of the cache." I can't read anything from this.

Mycosynth Golem is an artifact card with no flavor text.

I'm already pretty sure it's not a good idea to read anything into the magic cards. That said I'm about to launch into my own heavy WIFOM about the setup so forgive me:

Unvote. Vote: Vi

I'm blaming Grem's death on you. I think Ort is Glissa. You were the other one to be serumed last night. I still like my synth on Geraintm.

I agree, think about what sort of powers scum might get from the serum. If they got an extra night-kill, SURELY the mod would also give them an ability which they could prove they had the next day to avoid making it obvious that the extra night-kill was due to them getting the serum. The double-voting seems a perfect example of this- it's not too strong either. Of course it's also kind of consistent with a metal townie- the mod wouldn't want to make their ability overpowered for town if they're already metal and non-night-killable. It's also obvious from the claims we've seen that the scum were given at least two fake-claims between them, perhaps communally or perhaps individually. It's perfectly plausible Timeater simply decided to use his when I stupidly gave him an opening day one (and if he got serumed and got the double night-kill then we would have been none the wiser due to having little knowledge of the setup).

Now (and this is going to get _very_ wifom about the setup) I actually think TM's claim makes him likely to be town:

Welcome, TonyMontana.

You are a Moriok Scavenger, town-aligned graverobber.
Geth was told to send a few good men to the core of Mirrodin, and kill the elf Glissa. Well, you were one of those sent. And you failed. Now, you have joined up with the elf girl--your lord Geth forsook you, and his lord now wants you dead. It really was the only sensible option.
Abilities: You have no outstanding abilities.
Win Condition: You win when you are the last faction remaining.

The role actually reads as scummy. He comes from a scummy background compared to all the other pms we've seen, and we know for one that even if TM's claim is fake then at least one of the others is also fake. Also I suspect that whichever the fakeclaims are, whatever they present the person's metalness/fleshness as is what the actual player's metalness/fleshness is. Furthermore I think for game balance reasons, assuming there is only 3 scum (which there really must be, would be too unbalanced otherwise), then there is/was at least one metal townie, even if Timeater/Vi is actually scum. From that I infer the last two scum probably is/were metal. Tell me if you think that's a bad assumption.

And when I think about what Porkens said in post 910, I find it very plausible that Timeater/Vi is Memnarch aka the mafia godfather. The pms specifically detail how powerful Memnarch is, and what could be more powerful than an extra night-kill followed by a double vote? Any comments on the flavour in Post 900, that Gremwell was found "beneath two copper bread buns"?

Hmm... That makes some flavor sense, true. But that would also mean that I'm liekwhoaverpowered as a role - an extra NK and a scum-doublevote, seriously?

I don't like the WIFOM here, especially as this seems entirely possible to me.

Anyway I'd love to lynch Timeater

I would like to hear more on why Illumina is scummy, I'm probably leaning back towards geraintm at this point but would consider changing to Illumina if convinced.

Furthermore, I am suspicious of:

Let's just say my role is more vulnerable than I thought, due to recent events. I really think it would hurt the town to reveal my role now.

in light of Illumina's actual claim I don't understand why he said this. What did this mean?

But, c'mon Vi's jumped around FoSing the townies looking players- CF Riot and TM. It's possible that CF Riot (and Porkens/TM) have gone to a hugely elaborate gambit with their scumbuddy MafiaSSK and deliberately both tried to not give him the serum day one despite it being randomly chosen, and further bandwagoned him to get him lynched, but if they were clever enough to do this to clear them town never had a chance. I don't see you had any reason to suspect CF Riot without very good justification considering how townie he looks, and am highly skeptical of you voting Tony also with so little evidence of him being scum.

I'm sure Vi has to be the lynch for today, I'm only torn between who we should synth and to a lesser extent who we should serum, but I think I'm happy with seruming Porkens.

Vote: Vi

Obviously don't lynch him before we get more discussion.

Btw CF Riot, I honestly think there was little chance of anyone correctly interpreting your breadcrumb :

I'm trying to

c

atch

up whenever the

o

pportunity

finally decides to

p

resent

itself. Middle of page

4

.

The 4 was the key. First letter of every 4th word. However, it turned out I guessed wrong, and I actually became a tracker.

[Porkens]

Lord, what a

mess

interesting game. I've got a lot of ideas going through my head. It's hard to separate the flavor from the mafia. Something that helped me to remember though was:

We hung MSSK because of his claimed role and behavior, not his flavor.

Now, there is a lot of stuff to consider at the moment:

First and foremost:

We had two kills last night, with two different kill flavors. That implies more than 1 killing faction. I originally thought this meant we had a vigilantly. But no one will admit to it.

I therefore think we should assume a worst-case scenario; that we now have:

2 scum, 1 Serial Killer, 4 Town.

So we are in a potential MYLO situation.

I've caught some typos in geraintm's Role PM:

Welcome, geraintm.

You

are are

a Mycosynth Golem, Town-Aligned Metal Master of Mycosynth. You are the embodiment of Karn here on Mirrodin. He gave you specific instructions:

stop Memnarch using the mycosynth.

Now, Glissa Sunseeker has appeared to fight Memnarch, and they say the enemy of my enemy is my friend...
Abilities: You are metal. You cannot be killed in any way.
Win Condition: You win when you are the last faction remaining.

Now, as to whether the mod made those typos or Geraintm did, I honestly don't know which is more likely. Although, the idea that safe-claims had to be made in the heat of the moment would explain the 2 typos in this one PM.

Similar card abilities

Tony and I have different cards. But the ability on those cards is similar…

eternal witness:

When Eternal Witness comes into play, you may return target card from your graveyard to your hand.

Moriok Scavenger:

When Moriok Scavenger comes into play, you may return target artifact creature card from your graveyard to your hand.

Now, this won’t hold a ton of water, but since

I

am town, I suspect I have a scum-counterpart in Tony.

The Order of the Claims

Neither Illumina nor Tony claimed before Geraintm did. Late claims always worry me.

Who's Metal?

So far,

everyone

who has been metal has been given a role based on an

artifact

card. Who's role-claim doesn't line up with this pattern?

Illumina

's.

Illumina's claim worries me:

Nim Lasher strikes me as an out-of-place card to pick for the game. But, so did SpyreX's to an extent. It's also interesting that in this Role PM, Glissa isn't mentioned by name.

CF calling a black card scummy

Racist. No but seriously; This idea doesn’t ring right to me for two reasons. First, the only scum we have seen is Blue (which is also the color of CF's card). Secondly, the only scum we've seen is a Vedalken (who work with Memnarch), and CF's "Neurok Spy" card says that Neurok Spys work for the Vedalkens. So if color and card-affiliation are incriminating, as CF seems to suspect, he himself is actually the most incriminated.

so HOW did metal-boy die?!

Two people got the Serum last night -

Ort and Vi

. If we can possibly assume that

only

Serraphim had a free ability (to give the serum), as the rules of the game suggest, one of them; Ort and Vi, must have gotten an ability that let them kill Gremwell, even though he was metal.

Here’s what I think

1. I am not satisfied with Illumina’s hesitance to claim or the fact that he’s claiming metal when it doesn’t fit the pattern we have seen. So I’m fairly certain Illumina is scum.

2. I ‘m fairly certain (and horrified) that either Ortolan or Vi is an SK (I have an idea about which it is, but that's for another post).

3. Tony Montana is my pick for the last scum, based on the similarities between his rolecard and mine and the fact that he waited for geraintm to claim first. However, Geraintm's claim looks like a great mafia-goon role.

4. I think Illumina is the best lynch choice today (Because I'm fairly certain he is scum and I don't want to misslynch). And I think we should synth Tony Montana.

5. At this point in the game; I'm happy to be serumed.

Unvote
Unsynth
Unserum

Vote: Illumina
Mycosynth: Tony Montana
Serum: Porkens

[Porkens]

Who’s the SK?

Like I said above; I think that the SK must be either Vi or Ort.

I can see either one being an SK for the following reasons.

Each of their cards has an ability that would coincide with the idea of a killing role.

I am abandoning the idea that Glissa

must

be town. That’s purely flavor-biased idea, and I really think this game is going to come down to more than flavor.

Ortolan could be the SK for the following reasons.

His serum-granted power is hard to verify, so it’s a great choice to claim as scum.

Vi could be the SK for the following reasons.

In this setup a 3rd party would need to be quite powerful in order to have a hope of winning.

A metal-kill and a double vote don’t actually sound that bad for a 3rd party. Especially so if these are limited use abilities.

An SK would need to convince the town to give them the serum. Don’t forget what set the tone for this whole game; it was TimeEater, claiming metal, and asking for the Serum. IIRC, Vi has also pushed for getting the serum.

Triskelion’s stuff (warning, this is flavor again), comes in 3s. A double vote is, at best, 2.

so…

I think I believe that TE/Vi is the SK. And I think we should lynch them/him/her today.

So that moves the mycosynth to Illumina (I was pained about not synthing illumina first anyway).

In his last couple posts this page, TM has also done quite a bit to sway me on him, so I’ll change my suspect list to Illumina and Geraintm for the time being.

Unvote
Unsynth

Vote: Vi
Mycosynth: Illumina

[Porkens]

And I think that's a majority on Mycosynth and Serum. So we just need someone to droppa duh hamma with a vote.

[Porkens]

Sorry for the

triple

quadrupedal post.

[geraintm]

Unvote. Vote: Vi

I'm blaming Grem's death on you. I think Ort is Glissa. You were the other one to be serumed last night.

why??

question, can someone post up everyone's claim in one easy to find post?

*Scum generally don't quickhammer their partners; besides, all the information we can get is here (that was the major reason I didn't want anyone to prematurely end the day) and the quickhammerer will look poor going into tomorrow anyway.

what does this refer to?

You call CF "the most suspicious," but you don't vote for him. I know: cliams blah blah blah.

good spot.

I'm going to totally flip flop on my earlier prediction and go with a new guess of Vi + Illumina team, which would explain his baseless defense of her when he first replaced into the game and post 954. The thing that troubles me here is Illumina's town cred from when she suggested redoing the serum N1 still hangs in the back of my mind. All in all I'm really confused and I think I need to post less and let my fellow townies back me up, but that's just not my style. =P

why was suggesting to redo the serum a town tell? i thought sticking to the plan was the town thing to do

I can't really defend that, except to say that it was late at night and I was fed up with reading this topic twenty pages before I finally quit (still somewhere in D1). You asked me why I thought Illumina was Town soon afterward, and upon rereading I couldn't really find anything to back it up, so I retracted that stance.

you realise this explanation makes you look worse now,dont you?


Porkens - i copied and pasted the message exactly as it was sent. any typos were mods not mine.

your post was intersting, but you hint at there being more to come at a later date.

[ortolan]

I think Vi is more likely to be godfather than SK, if he is scum- why would the SK only get a nightkill when they get serumed- that's the crappiest SK role ever- although I suppose this partially applies to my supposition that he is godfather also

Also if I am an SK, it would seem quite a lame and unfair SK that seems to get guaranteed in almost ever player's pm (I did not know this at the time I claimed either, it was just lucky that I happened to look very scummy and it served to verify me). If Vi flips town I anticipate votes coming my way due to what Porkens said unfortunately, which would cause us to lose as I am town

I really don't like you wanting to go to night within 3? pages of the last night. Illumina hasn't even had time to answer my question. Seems somewhat scummy.

Unvote

[ortolan]

Please post with an acceptable amount of detail who you think is most scummy geraintm, TM and Illumina, as soon as possible