Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Aureal]

The setup could be replete with lies!

... I'm not sure how we would tell exactly what they are without further information, but it could be useful to know that it's not entirely trustworthy. What if the info we have on financing for the scum is a lie? Could be all kinds of weird misdirection. If it's clean then we use it again later and get a positive result, we'll know something during the game was a lie, letting us narrow down what it could be.

By contrast, what sort of lies could we expect to see during the game? Are we going to be told someone is dead but they're not? Given the wrong role for them? I think having a baseline so we know it's not some random crap in the setup could be helpful. If we feel like trying to figure out anything about mod lies, anyway.

[Deal With The Devil]

The setup could be replete with lies!

... I'm not sure how we would tell exactly what they are without further information, but it could be useful to know that it's not entirely trustworthy. What if the info we have on financing for the scum is a lie? Could be all kinds of weird misdirection. If it's clean then we use it again later and get a positive result, we'll know something during the game was a lie, letting us narrow down what it could be.

By contrast, what sort of lies could we expect to see during the game? Are we going to be told someone is dead but they're not? Given the wrong role for them? I think having a baseline so we know it's not some random crap in the setup could be helpful. If we feel like trying to figure out anything about mod lies, anyway.

I don't think there will just be random mod lies.
From the signup post:

Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?

It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to

- Alianna

[Roden]

I'd like to know how many scum we're dealing with first tbh. Establishing a base line for lies isn't a bad idea though.

[Roden]

HURT: Intelligentia

[camelCasedSnivy]

I'd like to know how many scum we're dealing with first tbh. Establishing a base line for lies isn't a bad idea though.

i would agree but i feel like we could do a lot better (like Trading Outpost or Bureau of Investigations)

[meowmeow]

roden why is aureal town

[marcistar]

No idea

I still think Merlyn might've TMI'd you and Devil and I think her way of reading you is too clinical. Overconfidence is NAI for you, in my experience how townie you are depends on how hard you hit the slay button. But I can also tell that our back and forth was going nowhere and it's better if I just disengage and observe for now.

You/Aureal/Devil/RC are my town reads right now, CSF/Leaf/Meow/Nurse/Penguin/Cakes are in my null stew pile, Merlyn/Snivy are under my watchful eye.

I don't think merlyn was all that scummy so far. She was pretty higher on my townreads list, though I do see spots where I think she could possibly be faking ignorance. I thought most of her stuff seemed genuine enough that I wanted to ignore that, I think shes one of the main people pushing the game "the direction they want", so I thought they couldn't be scum.
Aurueal isn't exactly a townread for me anymore, but isn't a scumread. Does it make sense? I think they dropped off.

How isn't meow a townread? I think they seemed pretty engaged in the game since the second they replaced in.

[Deal With The Devil]

I'd like to know how many scum we're dealing with first tbh. Establishing a base line for lies isn't a bad idea though.

i would agree but i feel like we could do a lot better (like Trading Outpost or Bureau of Investigations)

We get two projects, so we could still do one of those. I think I still prefer the Bureau.
If we want to use Inquiry, it's really only useful in the first couple of days. After that, it's kind of useless because it can't really pinpoint

when

the mod lie occurred if the result is positive.
I wonder if scum could make the mod lie in response to the Inquiry about mod lies. That would be meta and would also break my brain.

- Alianna

[marcistar]

i think knowing if the mods lied or not is the least of our worries tbhs

[meowmeow]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

[Deal With The Devil]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

How likely do you think it is that the number is going to be something other than 3?

- Alianna

[PenguinPower]

Could reasonably be 4 especially with a traitor-type role.

[meowmeow]

i think 3 is the most likely answer, but the mod makes a point of making it ambiguous whether or not the mafia actually have a factional kill which i think implies it's more likely they *don't* have one

i think it could pretty easily be 4 as a result of that

it at least seems more likely that this is the case than the mod lied about projects funding the mafia

[Deal With The Devil]

*flashbacks to the last biancospino game where we all thought there was 4 scum because of the traitor mechanics*

- Alianna

[meowmeow]

i would probably still prefer neighborhood watch though actually

we can make inferences based on 'do people die every night' anyway

[PenguinPower]

just on cursory scan of scum pts I think neighborhood watch is not that useful, though it is obviously dependent on who the actual scum team is

[Roden]

roden why is aureal town

I like the way she's dissecting the game mechanics and trying to optimize what we should fund and how we should do it. That on it's own is obviously not out of anyone's scum range, but I've noticed that the way she's been poking at people's understands of the mech and motivations for their votes is being done in a way to try to expose people who could be informed. I especially liked her interactions with RC earlier for that.

[Aureal]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

How likely do you think it is that the number is going to be something other than 3?

- Alianna

If it's as mountainous as people are fearing, 2 is even still possible. See that Scarfolk Council game you were in for example.

[Deal With The Devil]

I went into a minor WIFOM spiral over this, but my gut wants to townlean it.

why?

The progression is a bit fuzzy in my head and I don't actually remember what order these thoughts occurred in, but it went something like this:
"Announcing on page 19 that he has no reads. That seems a bit bold from a scumbucket, I'll probably townbin it for now."
"Hmm, but what if he's scum and knows it looks town and that's why he's doing it?"
"But also, what is he even doing if he's scum? Where's the agenda?"
"I wonder if it's a reaction test."
"...you know what, it feels town, I'll townbin it."
"

Was that a bad idea?

"

- Alianna

[Roden]

No idea

I still think Merlyn might've TMI'd you and Devil and I think her way of reading you is too clinical. Overconfidence is NAI for you, in my experience how townie you are depends on how hard you hit the slay button. But I can also tell that our back and forth was going nowhere and it's better if I just disengage and observe for now.

You/Aureal/Devil/RC are my town reads right now, CSF/Leaf/Meow/Nurse/Penguin/Cakes are in my null stew pile, Merlyn/Snivy are under my watchful eye.

I don't think merlyn was all that scummy so far. She was pretty higher on my townreads list, though I do see spots where I think she could possibly be faking ignorance. I thought most of her stuff seemed genuine enough that I wanted to ignore that, I think shes one of the main people pushing the game "the direction they want", so I thought they couldn't be scum.
Aurueal isn't exactly a townread for me anymore, but isn't a scumread. Does it make sense? I think they dropped off.

How isn't meow a townread? I think they seemed pretty engaged in the game since the second they replaced in.

I get why you might think that about Aureal, I think they're still pretty townue though for the reasons I gave in my other post.

Meow is someone who feels townie to me and I like how they've interacted with me, but I haven't had a "synch up" moment with them yet, so I'm stewing on them for now. I'd say they lean town for me if I had to pick which side of null they land on.

[Deal With The Devil]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

How likely do you think it is that the number is going to be something other than 3?

- Alianna

If it's as mountainous as people are fearing, 2 is even still possible. See that Scarfolk Council game you were in for example.

We're allowed to use Census if "at most one Insurgent is dead," so that would be some evil mod misdirection. I won't say it's impossible though.

- Alianna

[meowmeow]

roden why is aureal town

I like the way she's dissecting the game mechanics and trying to optimize what we should fund and how we should do it. That on it's own is obviously not out of anyone's scum range, but I've noticed that the way she's been poking at people's understands of the mech and motivations for their votes is being done in a way to try to expose people who could be informed. I especially liked her interactions with RC earlier for that.

looking back on her iso, i don't see this as obvious. in fact, i think it's probably not happening at all?

i think you saying this is probably +town for you even if i'm right though. well, especially if i'm right actually

[meowmeow]

I went into a minor WIFOM spiral over this, but my gut wants to townlean it.

why?

The progression is a bit fuzzy in my head and I don't actually remember what order these thoughts occurred in, but it went something like this:
"Announcing on page 19 that he has no reads. That seems a bit bold from a scumbucket, I'll probably townbin it for now."
"Hmm, but what if he's scum and knows it looks town and that's why he's doing it?"
"But also, what is he even doing if he's scum? Where's the agenda?"
"I wonder if it's a reaction test."
"...you know what, it feels town, I'll townbin it."
"

Was that a bad idea?

"

- Alianna

i read fl as being like 'i have no reads because i haven't read the game' judging by his comments on the mech stuff

from this angle i can see why you would do that

[Aureal]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

How likely do you think it is that the number is going to be something other than 3?

- Alianna

If it's as mountainous as people are fearing, 2 is even still possible. See that Scarfolk Council game you were in for example.

We're allowed to use Census if "at most one Insurgent is dead," so that would be some evil mod misdirection. I won't say it's impossible though.

- Alianna

You're making way too much sense on this page.

[Merlyn]

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

Yeah, this is my take as well- I'm envisioning that the mod tells us if was a lie, but not what the lie was from the wording of inquiry. If that's not right, I do see more value in it.