Newbie #706 - Oh Little Town of Damocles (Over!)

[Ropis]

There's no reason why the mafia would pass up killing the doc, unless it's a false claim and afatchic is really scum.

...other than the fact that passing on him gives them a reasonably good shot at another townie and a free pass through day 2 if we agree beforehand to lynch him. I think we should hesitate to promise to do

X

if

Y

because it hands more control to the scum.

This is an open question, but I’d really like to hear Zazie’s opinion on a Day 1 doctor claim since she’s our other resident IC. In the faster passed games I’m used to I NEVER saw a day one claim work out to the town’s advantage. For each of us (townies) there are 8 unknowns – 25% scum. All other things being equal (which of course they never are, but let’s try to isolate the variable) if he IS the doc and claimed day one then that’s 1 known and 7 unknowns – 28.6% scum. From a strictly numbers game, he’s outed himself for a measly 3.6% increase in catching a scum, and now the scum can choose to play the situation – Kill him, frame him, possibly roleblock him – so his effectiveness in the role is nil, and quite possibly even worse because he’s become a scum tool. On top of everything else, with the F11 setup the scum would now know whether or not a Cop is in play, giving them even MORE of an information advantage.

Bottom line is in my opinion the claim was not a pro-town move – it was a temporary save-your-skin maneuver at best. I know, it’s ironic coming from me and my page one shenanigans, but that type of play was commonplace in the faster games so players could get to the real meat of the game. This game is already on, and I think this play could be a very costly mistake.

And the above is all predicated on the idea that he IS in fact the doc, which we only had a 50% shot at getting in the first place. It is at least as likely that it is a lie.

[Ropis]

One of the last rules is "

Robust cryptography and steganography are not allowed in my games.

"
Now I'm tempted to re-vote afatchic.

...I'd say there's a vast difference between hint dropping and "Robust Cryptography", and I'd further give Afatchic the benefit of the doubt that as an IC he would not be likely to overtly break the rules of the game - scum or no.

Pretty

weak

case you're trying to build there, unless you've seen some embedded encryption that I've missed. The only "Hint" I spotted was when he stated "yes the self defense is very helpful to the town."

[Deuxieme Octopus]

Does this mean he's modkilled now?

I think we would have to prove the hints actually exist first....

Actually, afatchic is screwed either way really. If he admits the clues exist, he's modkilled. If he decides to pull a reversal regarding the existence of the clues, then he's a liar. A scummy liar that should be lynched.

[Porkens]

I could be wrong about this (I don't think I am) but neither robust cryptography nor stegasorusography are things that your average player will do.

To put it another way, I don't think doing something like;

D

on't

O

verestimate

C

areful

T

hinking

O

r

R

epublicans. would fall anywhere near into one of those catagories.

Now, I still don't know what kind of "hints" or clues afatchic thinks we all shouldn't have missed.

And yes, there's a 50% chance that there is no doctor, at all, in this game. That's what I meant. Pretty good looking gamble if your scum stuck at L-1 (You might at least get the real doc to come out)

Deciding whether or not the scum will kill afatchic if we don't is up to the scum. There would be value in either play.

The next step here is proof of these "clues".

...?

[afatchic]

Ropis- by claiming my role was an EXTREMELY portown move. the odds are 50/50 that im the only PR, so by not claiming and getting lynched eliminates possibly the only power role and lets the scum kill whoever they want tonight without a fear. you would always rather lynch a possible scum, then a confirmable townie. by lynching me would only benefit scum, and be extremely anti-town.

And the "breadcrumbs" were not anything worth a mod kill for. just my reply to every one of your smart alleck comments such as Christmas came early for us this year...

[afatchic]

but I think in our case, christmas came early.

and if you think christmas came earlier you are in for a rude awakening.

A note of caution, afatchic: with every post I read from you, I feel more willing to place my vote on you.

You will just hurt the town.

And right now, afatchic is not adding very much to the town, just a lot of self-defense. This is not helpful or productive.

and yes the self defense is very helpful to the town.

a couple more i think, but i forgot where at. i figured eventually someone would acknowledge that maybe there was a reason it would hurt the town.

and btw... i would honestly expect to live to tomorrow. half the town already wants to lynch me, and im not that much of a threat to the scum. if we do have a cop, i will just be roleblocked, then they can keep me alive. if we don't have a cop i would still expect for them to frame me and take a free kill and let the town try to lynch me tomorrow.

[Epitaph]

but I think in our case, christmas came early.

and if you think christmas came earlier you are in for a rude awakening.

A note of caution, afatchic: with every post I read from you, I feel more willing to place my vote on you.

You will just hurt the town.

And right now, afatchic is not adding very much to the town, just a lot of self-defense. This is not helpful or productive.

and yes the self defense is very helpful to the town.

a couple more i think, but i forgot where at. i figured eventually someone would acknowledge that maybe there was a reason it would hurt the town.

and btw... i would honestly expect to live to tomorrow. half the town already wants to lynch me, and im not that much of a threat to the scum. if we do have a cop, i will just be roleblocked, then they can keep me alive. if we don't have a cop i would still expect for them to frame me and take a free kill and let the town try to lynch me tomorrow.

How are those clues for a doctor specifically? You were just implying you were a town role, and not even necessarily a power role. I think I do believe you, though, for some reason.

[afatchic]

nicely done for any of you that didn't realize i was hinting a

power role

every time i replied to one of your posts.

i don't breadcrumb clues to my exact role, i think thats dumb. but i do believe that if you are observant you can pick out someones role in a certain situation given by there attitude and tone of speech(hard to tell in chat).

FYI, i wouldn't have made those comments as a vanilla townie. lynching a vanilla townie wouldn't really hurt the town too terrible bad, while lynching a PR would, which is why i said that.

[lobstermania]

and btw... i would honestly expect to live to tomorrow. half the town already wants to lynch me, and im not that much of a threat to the scum. if we do have a cop, i will just be roleblocked, then they can keep me alive. if we don't have a cop i would still expect for them to frame me and take a free kill and let the town try to lynch me tomorrow.

WHAT?? You say you are the Doc, and you also say you are "not that much of a threat to the scum." That's just completely weird. You are the scum's biggest threat right now, if you're honest about your claim. I'm having a hard time believing it. A claim on page seven is a very odd move to make, and it's hard to take seriously. The only way for us to know if you're telling the truth is for you to die. I think your claim is the only thing keeping you alive right now. But after some thought and re-reading, I'm not buying it.

Vote: afatchic

[afatchic]

VOTE lobstermania.

that is the dumbest move to make, lynch me to test my claim. and yes you claim at L-1. you voted me and so i claimed. and no im not that big of a threat to the scum, im not like a cop, i don;t get inno and guilty. the chances of me saving are slim to none. so no im not that big of a threat, yet you voting an uncounterclaimed doc because you don't like the claim just just plain stupid.

[ZazieR]

Regarding posts 158-161
I partly agree with LM. AFC, self-defence is good, but you shouldn't think only about yourself. Show us your suspicions as well (which you later did) as that is helpful as well. (Don't be offended if I sound teachery. That is not my intention)
But like AFC said, shouldn't he? He's the only one who knows his role (not anymore if his claim is right). Do you think there's someone else who would defend him?

About the last part of post 158
What kept you from voting at that time LM?

@LM
What's the point of 163? If AFC and you aren't scum, you only just gave scum some ideas. I don't see the use in this post.

@Porkens and DO
why no unvote? If hes scum, we can perhaps catch him later in a lie. Besides, there's a chance that he's the doc. I rather have a scummy claimed townie lynched than a scummy claimed doc. I really want to know why you guys see something in this gamble.

Post 170 is bad.
Breaking a rule has nothing to do with someone's allignment. How come this tempted you to re-vote AFC?

@Ropis
Claim only if it could help town. I have seen some examples in which players claimed, while it wasn't needed. To one of them, it hasn't ended well.
But AFC was at L-1. If he is the doc, it would have been his task to claim as it prevents a mislynch. I've seen a game where the doc claimed as well when he was almost lynched. He ended up lynched. That night, the scum took out the most pro-town player of that game and the town went after the player who was almost lynched day 1. If this is a bit too complicated explained see NG 665 as this is the game I'm talking about.

To me, if AFC is the doc, he did the right thing.
But like I said, don't claim when it's not needed.

I don't think he AFC has broken any rules although I have no examples what the mod could have meant with that rule. But if AFC has broken it, the mod will surely tell it in one of his posts.
I think that Porkens example in post 178 breaks that rule more than AFC's hints.

At this moment I say, let AFC live through this day. If he's scum, he'll screw up somewhere. Besides, if he's truely the doc and perhaps the only danger to the scum, they have to eliminate him. And if he's the doc and if we have a cop, the scum will have to look at who the cop can be as the cop is more dangerous than the doc (in my opinion).
It actually bothers me that LM wants to lynch him to see if the claim is true.

[Mr. Flay]

Fifth Vote Count of Day One:

afatchic - 3 (Porkens, Deuxieme Octopus, lobstermania)

Epitaph - 1 (ZazieR)
Burning Love - 1 (Ropis)
lobstermania - 1 (afatchic)

Not Voting - 3 (Burning Love, broncofaninmd, Epitaph)

With nine alive, five votes will be needed to lynch.

---

stegasorusography

... seriously, though, afatchic is not modkilled.

Robust

codes cannot be broken/manipulated, thereby potentially throwing the entire game out of whack

(it allows for verifiable mass roleclaims D1, for example)

.

[Epitaph]

and btw... i would honestly expect to live to tomorrow. half the town already wants to lynch me, and im not that much of a threat to the scum. if we do have a cop, i will just be roleblocked, then they can keep me alive. if we don't have a cop i would still expect for them to frame me and take a free kill and let the town try to lynch me tomorrow.

WHAT?? You say you are the Doc, and you also say you are "not that much of a threat to the scum." That's just completely weird. You are the scum's biggest threat right now, if you're honest about your claim. I'm having a hard time believing it. A claim on page seven is a very odd move to make, and it's hard to take seriously. The only way for us to know if you're telling the truth is for you to die. I think your claim is the only thing keeping you alive right now. But after some thought and re-reading, I'm not buying it.

Vote: afatchic

This foolish and scummy. Afatchic has claimed a power role and hasn't been counterclaimed. And I personally believe his claim, even though his "breadcrumbs" were very vague. Yes, I know I was ate the forefront of the case against him, but I'm not stupid enough to lynch a an uncounterclaimed doctor right away. And what's so hard to believe about the claim? He was at L-1, isn't it common to claim? Yeah, a lot of claims made then are bull and are proven to be, but 1. If he is the doctor, we can't risk losing him day 1 2. We know if he's lying tomorrow, so then we can just lynch the liar and 3. I believe him. I'm inclined to believe that this is scum trying to ride the old wagon and lynch a claimed power role. And I don't like it.

vote: LobsterMania

[broncofaninmd]

And now you can unvote... im the doctor. nicely done for any of you that didn't realize i was hinting a power role every time i replied to one of your posts.

And how is this the betterment of town?

I'd have to be a fool to leave my vote on a claimed doctor who hasn't been counterclaimed.

unvote

I would like to see some explanation of these "hints" you left as well, though.

First off, if is the is a false claim why in heck would the real doctor come out and counter claim. I think its a scummy move knowing he is on the ropes and wants the doctor out. I say we lynch him and get this question mark off our hands now. What if he is not night killed? We lynch him tomorrow? And give scum another kill? I say we better ourselves by getting rid of him now doctor or not he is gone either way

[broncofaninmd]

and btw... i would honestly expect to live to tomorrow. half the town already wants to lynch me, and im not that much of a threat to the scum. if we do have a cop, i will just be roleblocked, then they can keep me alive. if we don't have a cop i would still expect for them to frame me and take a free kill and let the town try to lynch me tomorrow.

WHAT?? You say you are the Doc, and you also say you are "not that much of a threat to the scum." That's just completely weird. You are the scum's biggest threat right now, if you're honest about your claim. I'm having a hard time believing it. A claim on page seven is a very odd move to make, and it's hard to take seriously. The only way for us to know if you're telling the truth is for you to die. I think your claim is the only thing keeping you alive right now. But after some thought and re-reading, I'm not buying it.

Vote: afatchic

I agree with lobstermanin im not buying it either, and as stated above, even if he is its only going to hurt the town. He is as good as gone now anyways. Why keep shooting our foots later down the road.

[broncofaninmd]

Well your claim is quite unfortunate, but I can't say I feel like your posts led me to believe anything other than that you were scum. I do not see these power-role "hints" as you call them. Can you give me an example?

Neither do i. I think its a scum move to draw out the real doc. We cant let this linger any more

[Deuxieme Octopus]

For everyone's information I was waiting to unvote because not everyone has posted since AFC's roleclaim, meaning that potentially Burning Love could counterclaim. But I guess I would have the option then to re-vote so

UNVOTE

Second point,
I don't even think I need to explain how anti-town Bronco sounds. We should not "just lynch and get the question mark off our hands." Leaving afatchic alive is infinitely more useful. I think what happens to afatchic overnight will be much more telling than just knowing his role (and a good chance of losing two townies [we lynch the doc, mafia NKs someone else]). If we let him live, we can attempt to catch a scummer that hasn't claimed power role. Also, we could learn a lot from whether or not AFC is still alive or not the next morning.

Bronco's post seems like a last-ditch effort to salvage what was shaping up to be an easy townie-lynch for the Mafia

Vote: Broncofaninmd

And while my mind is on the subject...
Where the hell is Burning Love in all of this? Serious lurker...

[broncofaninmd]

vote afatchic

I cant find any reason to keep him around. If he is doc and not n/k we lynch him any way, it was already stated, and then gives scum another kill the next night. Lets get rid of him why we can still recover from it. Epitaph seems like scum as well and we can turn our attention to him.

[broncofaninmd]

Why let him live? Do u really beleive the real doctor would counter claim you moron? Catch a scummer? Didnt you think you had one there, and then magically claims"doc" and u beleive him? He never dropped any clues about his role, and i think him lying was a questionable move to be more beleived.

[Epitaph]

vote afatchic

I cant find any reason to keep him around. If he is doc and not n/k we lynch him any way, it was already stated, and then gives scum another kill the next night. Lets get rid of him why we can still recover from it. Epitaph seems like scum as well and we can turn our attention to him.

Yes I seem like scum because I want to keep potentially our only power role alive and give him a chance to prove himself. How scummy of me indeed!

Also, when you said "I say we better ourselves by getting rid of him now doctor or not he is gone either way", it really disturbed me. Under no circumstances should a townie ever want rid of a power role, especially when it may be our only one the game! A dead doctor only helps scum.

Arm of Suspicion: broncofaninmd

You're really scummy, but I think you might just be dumb. I like my vote on lobstermania but IGMEOY.

[broncofaninmd]

A bunch of crap, eh? At one point (as we've pointed out numerous times) you were confident enough in Ropis being scum to say "when he flips scum, ill re-quote this then vote you [epitaph]" and "im pretty positive we've caught our first scum"

IF YOU ARE SO SURE AND DO NOT INTEND TO LYNCH, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU

DO

WANT TO DO TO SCUM! HELP THEM!?!?! It would seem so, since you unvoted him.

afatchic should hang for these statements, and I'm not scared to say it.

Your words not mine

[broncofaninmd]

vote afatchic

I cant find any reason to keep him around. If he is doc and not n/k we lynch him any way, it was already stated, and then gives scum another kill the next night. Lets get rid of him why we can still recover from it. Epitaph seems like scum as well and we can turn our attention to him.

Yes I seem like scum because I want to keep potentially our only power role alive and give him a chance to prove himself. How scummy of me indeed!

Also, when you said "I say we better ourselves by getting rid of him now doctor or not he is gone either way", it really disturbed me. Under no circumstances should a townie ever want rid of a power role, especially when it may be our only one the game! A dead doctor only helps scum.

Arm of Suspicion: broncofaninmd

You're really scummy, but I think you might just be dumb. I like my vote on lobstermania but IGMEOY.

First off we dont even know for sure that a doctor role is legit. Second, is he even telling the truth. Would u expect that if he is lying that the real doctor would counter? please answer that for me.

[broncofaninmd]

For everyone's information I was waiting to unvote because not everyone has posted since AFC's roleclaim, meaning that potentially Burning Love could counterclaim. But I guess I would have the option then to re-vote so

UNVOTE

Second point,
I don't even think I need to explain how anti-town Bronco sounds. We should not "just lynch and get the question mark off our hands." Leaving afatchic alive is infinitely more useful. I think what happens to afatchic overnight will be much more telling than just knowing his role (and a good chance of losing two townies [we lynch the doc, mafia NKs someone else]). If we let him live, we can attempt to catch a scummer that hasn't claimed power role. Also, we could learn a lot from whether or not AFC is still alive or not the next morning.

Bronco's post seems like a last-ditch effort to salvage what was shaping up to be an easy townie-lynch for the Mafia

Vote: Broncofaninmd

And while my mind is on the subject...
Where the hell is Burning Love in all of this? Serious lurker...

You know for a fact he is town? Quite the contradiction from earleir post. All of a sudden he claims "Im a doc" and you let him off the ropes?

[broncofaninmd]

For everyone's information I was waiting to unvote because not everyone has posted since AFC's roleclaim, meaning that potentially Burning Love could counterclaim. But I guess I would have the option then to re-vote so

UNVOTE

Second point,
I don't even think I need to explain how anti-town Bronco sounds. We should not "just lynch and get the question mark off our hands." Leaving afatchic alive is infinitely more useful. I think what happens to afatchic overnight will be much more telling than just knowing his role (and a good chance of losing two townies [we lynch the doc, mafia NKs someone else]). If we let him live, we can attempt to catch a scummer that hasn't claimed power role. Also, we could learn a lot from whether or not AFC is still alive or not the next morning.

Bronco's post seems like a last-ditch effort to salvage what was shaping up to be an easy townie-lynch for the Mafia

Vote: Broncofaninmd

And while my mind is on the subject...
Where the hell is Burning Love in all of this? Serious lurker...

I cant beleive you can come out and say how anti town i appear. You have cast votes on just about everybody. You have said before he needed to be lynched and u would stand by your word. Lobster casted a vote after he claimed and said just about what i said but no remarks were sent to him by you, wonder why? Im not going to sit around and come up with this theory or that theory about what is going to happen in night phase or next day phase and try to compute how scum are going to play there hand, it would just cause more mislynches. If he is indeed the doctor which i dont think he is then,yes it would hurt us and give scum two kills. If we dont act and lynch some one else and is town and scum kills some one other then afc and we lynch him next day the scum would have four kills. You were spearheading his exit in the first place, your the one that had said he needed to die. You have posted twice since his role claim and never said anything about your remarks for unvoteing till now. I find it hard to beleive u did that cause u were waiting for burning loves counter claim which might never come. Your VOTE was still there so if anything you look anti town as well.

[broncofaninmd]

and btw... i would honestly expect to live to tomorrow. half the town already wants to lynch me, and im not that much of a threat to the scum. if we do have a cop, i will just be roleblocked, then they can keep me alive. if we don't have a cop i would still expect for them to frame me and take a free kill and let the town try to lynch me tomorrow.

WHAT?? You say you are the Doc, and you also say you are "not that much of a threat to the scum." That's just completely weird. You are the scum's biggest threat right now, if you're honest about your claim. I'm having a hard time believing it. A claim on page seven is a very odd move to make, and it's hard to take seriously. The only way for us to know if you're telling the truth is for you to die. I think your claim is the only thing keeping you alive right now. But after some thought and re-reading, I'm not buying it.

Vote: afatchic

This foolish and scummy. Afatchic has claimed a power role and hasn't been counterclaimed. And I personally believe his claim, even though his "breadcrumbs" were very vague. Yes, I know I was ate the forefront of the case against him, but I'm not stupid enough to lynch a an uncounterclaimed doctor right away. And what's so hard to believe about the claim? He was at L-1, isn't it common to claim? Yeah, a lot of claims made then are bull and are proven to be, but 1. If he is the doctor, we can't risk losing him day 1 2. We know if he's lying tomorrow, so then we can just lynch the liar and 3. I believe him. I'm inclined to believe that this is scum trying to ride the old wagon and lynch a claimed power role. And I don't like it.

vote: LobsterMania

You basing your theory cause someone cried wolf and now your ready to go elsewhere? Lobster does not beleive him and kept his vote not cause he is scum trying to out a power role. You said we can lynch the liar tomorrow if scum does not night kill him, which is what scum would want to do.