Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Ranger]

Not buying a lot of the logic related to traitor/lawyer signaling. Way more indicative ways to do it in a game with two voting mechanisms, imo?

it almost feels too obvious to me.

Yeah, because it wasn't signaling.

I decided to have fun with a minor Doctor Drew emphasis. Just 'cuz.

I've already shared more than I intended by stating I've no ties to Doctor Drew. So, since I've stated my puns were for fun and I've no ties to Doctor Drew, then either players can believe me, or they're calling me a liar. If they're calling me a liar, they need to explain their logic for it. The logic Kyoko Kirigiri is demonstrating doesn't hold up.

[Ranger]

Hi I’m still basically Vla but I was like fck it ima just sheep Ranger but they’ve been voting the same person since post #1 and that’s kinda Sussy to me Ranger

My strong gut scumread hasn't magically vanished, and nobody else I want wagoned has momentum.

[Ranger]

I started townreading too many ppl idk where scum is supposed to be

As it so happens, I've too many scumreads. Perhaps we can have a middle ground.

Those I'd vote:
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

[Ranger]

... Doesn't feel like town or scum would logically suggest 3p wouldn't it. That... would make sense.

If Kyoko thinks it's signalling then bring it to the logical conclusion (assume Drew is town for this):

• town!Kyoko doesn't know Drews alignment so it could be traitor signaling scum or 3p signaling their target
  
• scum!Kyoko knows Drew isn't scum so therefore it can't be traitor signaling scum -> must be 3p signaling their target

it's TMI

Hmm actually on a second read through there was talk about it being traitor!Ranger for like 20 minutes

Yes, and then instead of concluding traitor, town, or some weird scum with a need to signal, Kyoko

did

jump, and stay, on the 3p theory, despite the flaws in the idea. (How a 3p relating to Doctor Drew would make Doctor Drew be who to focus on, not me.)

Kyoko Kirigiri's push was designed to appear insightful and engaged, yet doesn't hold to scrutiny.

[usesPython]

My strong gut scumread hasn't magically vanished, and nobody else I want wagoned has momentum.

Rauth wagon's getting stale. I'll sheep, who do you want wagoned rn?

-A

[usesPython]

Also can you update your nightmare vote to not include people you're actively scumreading?

-A

[Ranger]

Now tell me is this analysis "easy", "digging unnecessary" or "anti town"?

It is easy, digging unnecessarily, and anti-town.

It's a meaningless nothingness push, and still contains the same logical flaws previously provided.

If I am scum, then you don't have an explanation for the signaling. One could exist, yet the burden is on you the accuser to bring forward evidence I did, because I've stated it was me having fun.

If I am a traitor, then it was blatant signaling, in a way you've consistently said you believe I'm not. If I were, it would imply Doctor Drew as scum, leaving him the focus, yet you didn't pursue him; you kept your focus on me.

If I am a 3p, then I would be a 3p who is somehow tied to Doctor Drew. If so, then Doctor Drew should still be the focus, yet you didn't pursue him.

If I am town, and I am, then the entire pursuit is pointless and meaningless. The goal of town is to eliminate all threats to them. Regardless of how "weird", regardless of how "strange", the alleged signaling is, if I am town (and I am), then focusing on the supposed signaling is

not furthering the town win condition

.

You've written a bunch of words to justify yourself. Yet none which address the fundamental issue with the push being you're not following it to any of its possible logical conclusions.

I've said I'm town.
I've said I've no information on Doctor Drew whatsoever, and he isn't in my role PM at all.
I've said my puns were me having fun.

You've been focused on this since getting into the game, yet given both my statements and the lack of following the points to the logical conclusion, your push provides no tangible benefit. It's a distraction. It gives something for you to easily appear to give effort to, because putting time into a nothingness point is easy.

You and me both know that no action or reaction in a mafia game is a town or scum tell on its own. everyone can fake anything or be real about anything at any time. Its about seeing the mind set that's behind those actions and reactions and to see if its used for solve or not.

Yeah, sure is. I've rather extensively laid out why I believe your mindset is scum trying to appear town.

Your stated reads are largely consensus reads. Your 'insights' into various topics are easy to give without actually providing a tangible benefit to the town. You're not following your pushes to their logical conclusions. You're demonstrating knowledge you shouldn't have. You're continuing to push the same narrative, despite posts from multiple users calling your reasoning out and pointing out the flaws within.

Subjectively, I know you're not furthering the town's wincon with your Ranger push, yet even objectively the flaws within demonstrate even not knowing my alignment, your push on me

just isn't good

. Also subjectively, I've seen the pushes you've made as town and I always understood why you made them, because there was logic being followed to an ultimate conclusion; here, that's absent.

I'd say that demonstrates your actions are more likely from scum.

[Ranger]

Also can you update your nightmare vote to not include people you're actively scumreading?

Oops. Missed Aureal was in there.

HEAL: prior proposal

HURT: Doctor Drew, Ranger, usesPython, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Radical Rat, sheepsaysmeep, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy

[Ranger]

My strong gut scumread hasn't magically vanished, and nobody else I want wagoned has momentum.

Rauth wagon's getting stale. I'll sheep, who do you want wagoned rn?

Honestly, any of:

Those I'd vote:
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

I'll say of them, only {Merlyn, Kyoko Kirigiri, DragonEater70} are strong scumreads.

Aureal's largely feeling something's off, yet not strongly. WhemeStar's not looking town. Random Nurse has given nothing in a potentially suspect way. Flea's limited content hasn't been good, yet Flea's currently absent. STD's null. Titus, need to read her most recent content, her placement may change.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

... Doesn't feel like town or scum would logically suggest 3p wouldn't it. That... would make sense.

If Kyoko thinks it's signalling then bring it to the logical conclusion (assume Drew is town for this):

• town!Kyoko doesn't know Drews alignment so it could be traitor signaling scum or 3p signaling their target
  
• scum!Kyoko knows Drew isn't scum so therefore it can't be traitor signaling scum -> must be 3p signaling their target

it's TMI

Hmm actually on a second read through there was talk about it being traitor!Ranger for like 20 minutes

Yes, and then instead of concluding traitor, town, or some weird scum with a need to signal, Kyoko

did

jump, and stay, on the 3p theory, despite the flaws in the idea. (How a 3p relating to Doctor Drew would make Doctor Drew be who to focus on, not me.)

Kyoko Kirigiri's push was designed to appear insightful and engaged, yet doesn't hold to scrutiny.

what? This is blatant misrepresentation

#846 - me saying it feels out of place - first vibes of traitor interaction.
#852 #855 - me trying to confirm you're saying it meant nothing
#863 - voting you but stating I'm starting to see it more like 3p - asking you to elaborate or to be pushed to elaborate. This is me while catching up on game

Even at 863 I didn't accuse you of being scum. My vote on you was to make you talk as I literally stated it on the post

you saying it meant absolutely nothing?

As with Radical Rat, my policy remains. I decline answering.

I'll say I decided to have some fun, and Doctor Drew puns are fun. Do they mean more? Who's to say?

I think I'm not satisfied.

VOTE: Ranger

is there a reason you punned doctor drew name in multiple posts and partially each time?

It seemed apt placement. I don't want to kill the joke with overuse/forced; I still want to use it.

thing is it didn't feel like a joke. It was definitly signaling.

Now I'm reading more of game it seems your slot was involved in other ways with drew as well. so I don't get this interaction at all and I think the way you're hiding something is scummy in ways.

This doesn't feel like traitor actually. Its more like lawyer interaction (as you need drew to win to win kinda deal) and layers stick to their clients so hard so they recognize them and not kill em. But I'm also seeing it in various other ways that are quite unsettling.

I think this is a good slot to pressure for claim.

I accused you of being scum when you dropped me in your read list and then said you're scum reading me cause I find your signaling and my 3p hunting scummy when it was both a misrepresentation and an obvious excuse for justifying that scumread of yours which I questioned. For your read. Not your signaling.

But yes your signaling was alarming and needed questioning as I explained why in the 200 posts you choose to ignore to continue your narrative that I'm somewhat ignoring you?

[Radical Rat]

Also can you update your nightmare vote to not include people you're actively scumreading?

Oops. Missed Aureal was in there.

HEAL: prior proposal

HURT: Doctor Drew, Ranger, usesPython, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Radical Rat, sheepsaysmeep, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy

Why ten people? Should we not be minimizing the number of people we put in, since more people increases the odds of scum slipping through? Are you really THAT confident in your townreads this early?

[Ranger]

My vote on you was to solve your slot. My initial take was that the signaling is odd and can be traitor like interaction, then

it gave me vibe of a lawyer like interaction and as I caught up on your iso that second feeling improved

.

Why me following up on this is me going after 3p over scum?

I'll save myself the effort of typing out words and merely point to the bolded as an answer.

Now The main question here is why are "you" not scum hunting?

If I've not been scumhunting, that's news to me.

Last I knew I've been sorting players the entire game and currently have eight players south of null. I've explained most of those reads.

That is weird. How would town you with an skill relating drew would not want drew sorted first?

Easy answer; I've no skill relating to Doctor Drew this game.

I've also put time into sorting Doctor Drew, quite a bit actually.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Now tell me is this analysis "easy", "digging unnecessary" or "anti town"?

It is easy, digging unnecessarily, and anti-town.

It's a meaningless nothingness push, and still contains the same logical flaws previously provided.

If I am scum, then you don't have an explanation for the signaling. One could exist, yet the burden is on you the accuser to bring forward evidence I did, because I've stated it was me having fun.

If I am a traitor, then it was blatant signaling, in a way you've consistently said you believe I'm not. If I were, it would imply Doctor Drew as scum, leaving him the focus, yet you didn't pursue him; you kept your focus on me.

If I am a 3p, then I would be a 3p who is somehow tied to Doctor Drew. If so, then Doctor Drew should still be the focus, yet you didn't pursue him.

If I am town, and I am, then the entire pursuit is pointless and meaningless. The goal of town is to eliminate all threats to them. Regardless of how "weird", regardless of how "strange", the alleged signaling is, if I am town (and I am), then focusing on the supposed signaling is

not furthering the town win condition

.

You've written a bunch of words to justify yourself. Yet none which address the fundamental issue with the push being you're not following it to any of its possible logical conclusions.

I've said I'm town.
I've said I've no information on Doctor Drew whatsoever, and he isn't in my role PM at all.
I've said my puns were me having fun.

You've been focused on this since getting into the game, yet given both my statements and the lack of following the points to the logical conclusion, your push provides no tangible benefit. It's a distraction. It gives something for you to easily appear to give effort to, because putting time into a nothingness point is easy.

You and me both know that no action or reaction in a mafia game is a town or scum tell on its own. everyone can fake anything or be real about anything at any time. Its about seeing the mind set that's behind those actions and reactions and to see if its used for solve or not.

Yeah, sure is. I've rather extensively laid out why I believe your mindset is scum trying to appear town.

Your stated reads are largely consensus reads. Your 'insights' into various topics are easy to give without actually providing a tangible benefit to the town. You're not following your pushes to their logical conclusions. You're demonstrating knowledge you shouldn't have. You're continuing to push the same narrative, despite posts from multiple users calling your reasoning out and pointing out the flaws within.

Subjectively, I know you're not furthering the town's wincon with your Ranger push, yet even objectively the flaws within demonstrate even not knowing my alignment, your push on me

just isn't good

. Also subjectively, I've seen the pushes you've made as town and I always understood why you made them, because there was logic being followed to an ultimate conclusion; here, that's absent.

I'd say that demonstrates your actions are more likely from scum.

Another garbage of a post.

Litetraly pile of garbage from start to finish.

I already responded to every single point in this post

viewtopic.php?p=13831898#p13831898
viewtopic.php?p=13831903#p13831903
viewtopic.php?p=13831910#p13831910

you repeating this again even though I just tried to communicate with you and everyone else this morning again about them is why you're not town. This isn't town perspective.

Why was questioning it - is questioning this scummy? I'm not even voting you clearly stating I don't want you to be elimination of day as it is.

I'm convinced, you're objectively nitpicking stuff from my push on you to make it sound bad to justify the scum read you put on me cause the scum read you put on me was fake.

Now if you wanna actually do something productive explain your dragon eater read and explain why weren't you sorting drew in any conditions if you have skills with "some sort of intel/skills/boosts related to him but not conclusive ones"? and ask my clear questions about this.

you do all those "I can tell you he is either town or 3p crap shit literally just today and go and say you have no relation with him mechanically again?

you say my reads and takes are easy and are to go with flow of thread. Oh shit sherlock, its day 1. show me the result of your conclusive perceptive ground breaking detective work that is none existance?

I have been reading the game, saying what I was vibing with each post separately clearly stating I don't consider any of those statements as my reads, just my vibes reading those posts. My detective work and read is what I have on you for your dropping my name in your read list, list of excuses as of why, the inconsistencies with your claims and what is blatant and obvious and your general hypocrisy.

and I have slight reads and other avenues my mind got locked at, like not wanting dragon eater wagon persues cause it just feels shallow or how I changed my mind about rauth wagon. Whose conscious I was copying when I was developing my reads then? so you can stop insulting my posting as your excuse for scum reading me and actually start playing the game yourself if I'm wrong about you.

If I'm not, just continue what you doing. You should not go to far phases in this game.

[Ranger]

Why ten people? Should we not be minimizing the number of people we put in, since more people increases the odds of scum slipping through? Are you really THAT confident in your townreads this early?

My thinking is that in an ideal world we would have all Town and no scum in the nightmare, but since D1 reads are... not usually great... This way we can at least guarantee the majority of the Town gets in, AND we have more meaningful content to form reads going into D2. :P

Specifically, while I believe scum would likely have counterplay to every player being put in, putting a large group of strongly townread players in the nightmare could provide insight, revealing if there

are

scum within, potentially narrowing it down from "scum are in the entire playerlist" to "scum are in this group previously thought widely town".

Everyone I put in, I'm fairly comfortable calling town.

I'm town.
usesPython is my strongest townread.
I strongly believe Doctor Drew's town (not that we have a choice).
I strongly believe you're town.
I strongly believe Rautherdir's town.
I don't think KatyKimFanClub looks like scum.
While I've doubts about Abnegation when not viewing posts, every time I view Abnegation's posts I ask myself "why isn't Abnegation higher in my reads list?", and consistently Abnegation always looks town.

If need be, I'd reduce to those.

Yet Morning Tweet's contributions are comfortably town, and so too are camelCasedSnivy's.

sheepsaysmeep weakly looks town, too.

I'm as confident as I can be in my nominees being solid. For D1 reads, I actually think mine are really good.

[usesPython]

I'm checking out from this wall war

VOTE: Merlyn

Do something interesting

-A

[usesPython]

Can we just IC Ranger/Kyoko I'm feeling my will to play mafia drain with every wall that gets posted

-A

[Ranger]

and I was sure of that part so I went out and asked her about it - that she completely refuted and linked her response to rat about if she is the one who forced drew in nightmare instead - which to me is a signal of her mental note that the two events are one. as the signaling and the force nightmare are related in some way.

and for people who cant follow that line of thinking: in ranger mind, being questioned for signaling drew name in early game = being questioned for being responsible to force drew in nightmare
that is a conscious that equates those two jobs means it was her doing.

Actually, it's this:
Being questioned for signaling Drew's name = being rolefished;
Being questioned for being responsible for forcing Drew into the nightmare = being rolefished.

My response to one form of rolefishing is apt to a different form of rolefishing because both are rolefishing.

[Ranger]

Can we just IC Ranger/Kyoko

I don't want to be IC'd.

I'd rather be wagoned, honestly.

I'm confident in my ability to demonstrate my alignment without a need for outside role assistance.

I'd begrudgingly accept Kyoko, although imo, the best targets are likely successes we'd find useful, rather than likely failures.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

My vote on you was to solve your slot. My initial take was that the signaling is odd and can be traitor like interaction, then

it gave me vibe of a lawyer like interaction and as I caught up on your iso that second feeling improved

.

Why me following up on this is me going after 3p over scum?

I'll save myself the effort of typing out words and merely point to the bolded as an answer.

Now The main question here is why are "you" not scum hunting?

If I've not been scumhunting, that's news to me.

Last I knew I've been sorting players the entire game and currently have eight players south of null. I've explained most of those reads.

That is weird. How would town you with an skill relating drew would not want drew sorted first?

Easy

answer; I've no skill relating to Doctor Drew this game.

I've also put time into sorting Doctor Drew, quite a bit actually.

first your reads are the definition of shallow in dictionary. past 5 pages I asked like 5 times explain dragon eater vote and there isn't single comment about it. You followed everyone else's conscious on various up and downs in your list without dropping a reason for any - oh yes that's the persona you show on ranger account, posting empty of reason read lists jkust moving up and down in it as you feel so. Yet when town you have reasons to feel so and I cant see that this game. You have people like python up in your list and a lot as scum read but your scum reads aren't worked on, you didn't try to sort any of them, push any of them, question any of them, hell you didn't even change your vote in this entire day

so how is that scum hunting?

also there is absolutely no world you can say "yeah drew is town or has a high chance to be 3p" and "I have no mech relation to drew" in same day

VOTE: Ranger

I actually changed my mind again. can we make this slot just full claim. I take full responsibility for this.

pedit: I have a bunch of conscious townreads that I think are town and there is rauth I town read others are pushing (that I didn't acknowledge kyoko's same read on him myself and called it shallow). lets kill these all other people who I null read. This is best scum hunting ever. you couldn't do better than that even if you would try.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I want a 1v1 with ranger. I just want this slot to either claim something verifiable or to just die at this point. and I'm gonna tunnel it unless if a major something changes my mind.

[usesPython]

I want a 1v1 with ranger.

Wish granted

VOTE: Kyoko

-A

[Ranger]

why would scum me push on something someone else found randomly in such fashion?

You need to push something. Every push you've made this game has already been off the back of the preexisting work of others. I don't think your scumplay is bad. Your nothingness reads have been great at generating townreads on you. I simply think those nothingness reads aren't your townplay.

Now you can't claim people questioning it is "role fishing" and scummy.

I never did. Questioning it was fine. When Morning Tweet and usesPython both inquired, I didn't scumread them. Instead, I provided an answer sufficient to everyone. I felt like making the pun for fun. I already did ease people's minds. You, after I had done so, focused on it. You took it further and specifically demanded to know if it was role-related. As with Radical Rat's rolefishing, I denied yours.

[Ranger]

Why didn't you try to sort drew and why did you force him in nightmare if you're uncertain of his alignment?

I did sort Doctor Drew.

For all I've revealed, I still refuse to specify if I put him in the nightmare. You're not getting an answer from me. That I've said I have nothing in my role PM relating to Doctor Drew this game is all you get.

[Ranger]

also why would say he isnt scum or 3p and then say there is a high chance he is 3p.

I never said "he isn't scum or 3p". I said if I were 3p it'd be nearly certain he wouldn't also be 3p; I've laid out my reasons for believing he's not scum.

I've reasonable suspicion he's a decent chance to be 3p, because of the earlier scum pings yet the more town pings present recently. Still, since he's either town or 3p, he's not groupscum and therefore not a focus. My reasons for believing he's not groupscum are fairly strong.

I believe he's demonstrated aspects of his towngame.
I believe his mindset matches that of a town player.
I believe other players I'm scumreading have spewed him as not being their scumbuddy.
I additionally had a gut townread on him early, telling me he was worth trusting.

On D1, that's sufficient enough.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

can you just clearly write down "i have no role information about alignment of drew" " my own read on drew is this/that"

the way you post this makes it impossible to separate your read on him and what it seems to be sorting of an information.