Choose Carefully Mafia: (Game Over)

[bird1111]

Vote Count:
ZTR (2): armlx, CarnCarn
Kairyuu (1): Battle Mage
Detspeed (1): Kairyuu

Not Voting (9): ZTR, Santos II, Moses le fou, Empking, SocioPath, ribwich, ZazieR, hp [leaves], Detspeed

With 13 alive it is 7 to lynch.

Lynch Method Vote Count:
Rope (3): armlx, CarnCarn, Kairyuu
Gun (0): No one

Not voting for a lynch method (10): ZTR, Santos II, Moses le fou, Empking, SocioPath, ribwich, ZazieR, hp [leaves], Detspeed, Battle Mage

If a lynch were to happen with no changes in lynch method votes, the Rope would be used.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Ask me how many set ups I have seen. I expect the set up to be 4 power roles, 2 nillas, 4 town neighbors, 2 scum neighbors, 4 scum nillas.

Alrighty then. How many setups have you seen?

I can see where you get your setup theory mostly, but why 4 powers and 2 vanillas? And why wouldn't the scum have power roles in that situation? Isn't it unbalanced to have 6 scum with no real powers except for 2 quasi power roles, which are much more easily found than the vanilla scum against 4 town power roles and 4 quasi power roles? I suppose that it could be balanced out by putting in more scum like you are assuming, but in that situation I would think that the balance switches right over to the scum advantage. Can you explain it to me? I'm confused.

And Kairyuu, are you saying 1 lynch is more powerful then 2 vig kills?

Sometimes. It depends on the situation. If you are absolutely sure that someone is scum but the town won't believe you then you take matters into your own hands, but if you don't have the strongest of suspicions, or your suspicions are shared by several other people, then I think the lynch is better, because it gives more info. A vig kill just nails scum, but a successful lynch does that plus gives the town reactions and voting records to look at the next Day. I dunno about you, but I'd rather find the scum by cornering them with their own words than be forced to rely on a power role to do the work. The original purpose of power roles was to help the town catch the scum more easily. They were not intended to do the work themselves. If a power role hits one of the scum, that's great. If that power role hits all of them, then it isn't really a town win.

9-3 has more ways to ensure lynches aren't mislynches, as well as ways (RB/doc/JK's) to make up the missing lynch.

The first bit is true, if only because the ratio of scum to town is increased and there is almost always a cop (which I don't like). The second bit is true as well.

[Moses le fou]

Don't forget that power roles are weakened in this set-up. As bird explained, power roles have to specify which scum group they want their actions to work on. A doctor could protect Player X from the Sicilians, but if the Corsicans try to kill Player X, the doctor is useless. A cop could investigate scum every single night, but if he does so assuming the wrong mafia, he's going to get nothing but innocent results.

[Kairyuu]

Ah yes. That is a good point. I forgot to take that into account.

[Santos]

I am going to choose to

Vote: Detspeed

at the moment because his (Save the Dragons') past actions led me to.

How can we deduce that the rope is the right method?

[Empking]

Vote: Detspeed

Trying to look too townie.

Vote: Gun

[Detspeed]

Kairyuu said, "There is a problem here. You fail to take into account three of my four scenerios. What about lurker scum who missed deadline? What about scumteams targetting townies specifically who hit scum N1? What about scumteams targetting opposing teams but hit townies N1? Personally, given the fact that several players failed to post at all D2, I would say that the lurker scum possibility is higher than average."

I think he has a point there with the holidays. It is very easy to assume that there are people who didn't vote with in the time constraints.

As for your ass-umption that I could be mafia and vote so aggressivly in that regard, it was my first post in my first game on this web site. I just wanted to be funny. I think I might have missed the mark, but I can see where your vote comes from. I have voted for people in other towns for less. You have every right to vote for whom ever you choose, and I would not take that right from you. That would be a very mafia thing to do.

Right now I am on page 28 and still tring to figure out who is in the game and who is replaced with whom. It would be nice if I had some help, but unfortunatly I don't so you will just have to be a little more patient, or just kill me.

[Battle Mage]

@BM:

Vote: Kairyuu

You know, I had you pegged as a player who wasn't the type to throw a vote on without a word of reasoning. I expect to see your case against me in your next post. I won't ask you to remove your vote, but I can't exactly respond to your suspicions if they aren't stated, now can I?

You had me pegged wrong. But then, i dont know how you had me pegged ATALL, given we've never played together before. :S
You can't respond to suspicions that aren't posted. But it's always interesting to get a response to a vote before you explain it. If it makes you feel any better, your response isnt especially scummy, except that you sound like you're kissing my ass a bit.
That said, my vote should be pretty self-explanatory. Your precursors were scum, therefore you are scum. You've done nothing to suggest being protown to me, although i will acknowledge that you are playing much better than they did.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@armlx:

Ask me how many set ups I have seen. I expect the set up to be 4 power roles, 2 nillas, 4 town neighbors, 2 scum neighbors, 4 scum nillas.

Alrighty then. How many setups have you seen?

I can see where you get your setup theory mostly, but why 4 powers and 2 vanillas? And why wouldn't the scum have power roles in that situation? Isn't it unbalanced to have 6 scum with no real powers except for 2 quasi power roles, which are much more easily found than the vanilla scum against 4 town power roles and 4 quasi power roles? I suppose that it could be balanced out by putting in more scum like you are assuming, but in that situation I would think that the balance switches right over to the scum advantage. Can you explain it to me? I'm confused.

On first glance, i agreed with Kairyuu here, but given we have 2 scumgroups, that setup does seem fairly balanced.

BM

[CarnCarn]

Your precursors were scum, therefore you are scum. You've done nothing to suggest being protown to me, although i will acknowledge that you are playing much better than they did

What are you talking about? His precursors had like 4 posts total for the game and I don't recall you EVER being suspicious about that.

[Battle Mage]

@BM:

its thanks to this guy i'm not dead yet.

Explain please? How exactly did you screw up badly enough to die? I didn't see anything overly suspicious, so I would like to know what you saw.

I didnt want to hammer OeJo yesterday. It's been a long time since ive tried to toy with the rules like that. The idea was to make it LOOK like i hammered, without actually hammering, so we could:

A. Get a reaction out of OeJo
B. Get information out of the Mod

Sadly i didnt read the rules, and legitimately dropped the hammer. So yeh, it was a mistake, and im sorry.

And seeing as pretty much everyone thinks im town, there must be a reason i wasnt NKed last night. I first thought it was the hammer, but apparently not. Then it must be somebody who still thinks i am lynchable.

BM

This query struck me as scummy. Furthermore, PutaPuta was not a sitewide flaker. It's only here he found participation difficult. And i'm naturally suspicious of players who go overboard trying to look protown.

BM

[hp [leaves]]

Detspeed you kinda suck at acting like unacknowledged. You must have helped town's scumhunting to seem like town. And as you're a new player, I really feel that you're more likely to make beginner mistakes.

Vote: Detspeed
Vote: Rope

Also BM doesn't seem scum to me anymore.

[armlx]

Anyone on the Detspeed wagon based on his single post is weak sauce.

[Detspeed]

Detspeed you kinda suck at acting like unacknowledged. You must have helped town's scumhunting to seem like town. And as you're a new player, I really feel that you're more likely to make beginner mistakes.

Vote: Detspeed
Vote: Rope

Also BM doesn't seem scum to me anymore.

I find it very funny that you think I suck. I'm still on page 28 and this is the first real post I've seen from you. It is good to get yourt feet wet and jump right in and join a band wagon that stems from something my predicessor said or did. That also seems mafia like to me.

vote: HP
vote :Gun

[Kairyuu]

@Santos:

How can we deduce that the rope is the right method?

Well, if we assume that armlx is correct about the 2 scum neighbors thing where they are on different teams then since oEJo needed a gun to lynch, then it would follow that the other scum neighbor would require a rope.

@Detspeed:

As for your ass-umption that I could be mafia and vote so aggressivly in that regard, it was my first post in my first game on this web site. I just wanted to be funny. I think I might have missed the mark, but I can see where your vote comes from. I have voted for people in other towns for less. You have every right to vote for whom ever you choose, and I would not take that right from you. That would be a very mafia thing to do.

Newbie card works only in Newbie games, and even then not for long. The fact that you replaced into a fully developed Large theme means you are confident about your ability to play well.

Right now I am on page 28 and still tring to figure out who is in the game and who is replaced with whom. It would be nice if I had some help, but unfortunatly I don't so you will just have to be a little more patient, or just kill me.

Ask and you shall receive. What information exactly are you looking for? If I can help I will.

@BM:

You had me pegged wrong. But then, i dont know how you had me pegged ATALL, given we've never played together before. :S

I dunno. It

could

have been because I had read 31 pages of this game.

You can't respond to suspicions that aren't posted. But it's always interesting to get a response to a vote before you explain it. If it makes you feel any better, your response isnt especially scummy, except that you sound like you're kissing my ass a bit.

I agree that it is a good guage of alignment to vote and watch for reactions, but I don't think leaving the reason out does anything more than contaminate the sample, since all alignments have a tendency to get irritated at unreasoned votes. And no, I was not trying to buddy up. I try to be polite as much as I can around here (until I get pissed off and start ranting endlessly).

That said, my vote should be pretty self-explanatory.

Your precursors were scum, therefore you are scum.

You've done nothing to suggest being protown to me, although i will acknowledge that you are playing much better than they did.

Bolded: Hmm. Either the mod sent you my role pm and sent me someone else's, or you are making assertions that you have no way of backing up. I would just love it if you could prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that the role I got is wrong and I'm scum, since you seem certain enough to state it as fact.

Oh yeah, and I don't attempt to look protown. I attempt to catch and lynch scum. They are not the same thing.

Also, CarnCarn makes a very good point. Not only did you never accuse my predecessors of being scum, you never accused me of it D2, not even after the post that you say looked scummy, which I will address presently.

This query struck me as scummy. Furthermore, PutaPuta was not a sitewide flaker. It's only here he found participation difficult. And i'm naturally suspicious of players who go overboard trying to look protown.

Three problems with this post.

First, how exactly did my question 'strike you as scummy?' It helps if you explain yourself when you make an accusation.

Second, I have a fairly good idea as to why PutaPuta flaked here and not in other games. I think it's ZazieR. I remember randomly stumbling accross a game with the both of them in it, and PutaPuta expressed displeasure right off the bat upon discovering that ZazieR was there too. I believe that the accusation was something like PutaPuta accusing ZazieR of 'being a dick' to him/her in previous games. It's just speculation, but I see that as the most likely reason, especially considering no one had suspected any of them when they left.

Third, how am I going overboard to look protown? I've done nothing but post my thoughts and yell at people for lurking.

@armlx:

Anyone on the Detspeed wagon based on his single post is weak sauce.

Newbie 661. Player: Haterade. Look it up. He did

exactly

what you just did. He was right, but that's because he was the scum blocker.

@hp [leaves]: Don't use ad hom.

[armlx]

Newbie 661. Player: Haterade. Look it up. He did exactly what you just did. He was right, but that's because he was the scum blocker.

Your point?

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Your point?

Lack of reasoning irritates me. My point is that the player referenced couldn't provide reasoning because he was scum and that is how he knew he was right. I want reasoning from you now in order to determine if the cases are at all similar past the initial similarity.

[armlx]

Lack of reasoning irritates me. My point is that the player referenced couldn't provide reasoning because he was scum and that is how he knew he was right. I want reasoning from you now in order to determine if the cases are at all similar past the initial similarity.

Its weak because the people are relying on a weak tell from a new player, who is liable to do anything under normal scenarios regardless of alignment, let alone scenarios involving having to read 35 pages of material before entering the game, especially when there are far stronger reasons already existing to be suspect of him. Basically, it looks like people trying to reason hopping on the wagon now rather then earlier.

[Moses le fou]

Why would have Puta signed up for a game with ZazieR in the first place?

[armlx]

Why would have Puta signed up for a game with ZazieR in the first place?

Elaborate plz?

[Detspeed]

@Santos:

How can we deduce that the rope is the right method?

@Detspeed:

As for your ass-umption that I could be mafia and vote so aggressivly in that regard, it was my first post in my first game on this web site. I just wanted to be funny. I think I might have missed the mark, but I can see where your vote comes from. I have voted for people in other towns for less. You have every right to vote for whom ever you choose, and I would not take that right from you. That would be a very mafia thing to do.

Newbie card works only in Newbie games, and even then not for long. The fact that you replaced into a fully developed Large theme means you are confident about your ability to play well.

Right now I am on page 28 and still tring to figure out who is in the game and who is replaced with whom. It would be nice if I had some help, but unfortunatly I don't so you will just have to be a little more patient, or just kill me.

Ask and you shall receive. What information exactly are you looking for? If I can help I will.

As for the "newbie card" I didn't even know what kind of game I was getting into. I'm not sure what my neighbor HP [Leaves} has anything to do with it. I can talk to him but I don't know his affiliation? What is the difference in Gun and Rope? Can certain mafia get killed with gun and others get killed with rope? What about a candlestick in the library? It was Professor Plum I know it.

These are some of my game spacific questions. What do think about mafia and do you have any suspicions in that regard. You seem like a smart player and I can follow your points, but you haven't made many in the last few posts, about why you have voted for anyone, besides that save the dragons said suspicious things. Could you enlighten me where you stand on the issues? (global warming, war on terror, etc.)

[hp [leaves]]

I find it very funny that you think I suck. I'm still on page 28 and this is the first real post I've seen from you. It is good to get yourt feet wet and jump right in and join a band wagon that stems from something my predicessor said or did. That also seems mafia like to me.

vote: HP
vote :Gun

You have the same role as STD. If he was scum, then you also are scum.

Also I find it funny that you're voting for the method that

wouldn't

kill me if I was scum. If you read Moses' post about voting for methods, it just makes you seem more like scum.

Oh, and about OMGUS'ing me; it is actually a smart choice to vote for the person who most likely flip up scum if you weren't.

[Kairyuu]

@armlx:

Its weak because the people are relying on a weak tell from a new player, who is liable to do anything under normal scenarios regardless of alignment, let alone scenarios involving having to read 35 pages of material before entering the game, especially when there are far stronger reasons already existing to be suspect of him. Basically, it looks like people trying to reason hopping on the wagon now rather then earlier.

Hmm. So you are saying that we can't use anything he does as a tell because he's new? If that is the case then I would have nothing to vote him for, since I didn't find STD remotely scummy. Also, if you assume that he will play like a newbie, then it should be perfectly fine to vote him for tells most often committed in newbie games. It follows from that, that the 'go town' is a reliable tell on a newbie who hasn't played before and doesn't know the current meta. Therefore, I would say that the people voting him are perfectly well reasoned in doing so.

I'm still waiting on the answers to the questions I asked a while ago by the way.

@moses:

Why would have Puta signed up for a game with ZazieR in the first place?

No clue. All I have is another game I saw where that situation happened. I'm essentially speculating.

@Detspeed:

As for the "newbie card" I didn't even know what kind of game I was getting into.

Well then why did you join up in an existing game? Don't you think joining a newbie game out of the gate would have been a better idea?

I'm not sure what my neighbor HP [Leaves} has anything to do with it. I can talk to him but I don't know his affiliation?

Yeah. It's like a weakened (severely) version of masons. I don't really see the point of it either, but if armlx is right it helps us somewhat to catch scum because it puts 1/3 to 1/2 of the scum in roles where their counterpart is likely to claim if wagoned.

What is the difference in Gun and Rope?

One scum group is only vulnerable to gun lynches and the other is only vulnerable to rope lynches. If we try to lynch scum with the wrong weapon, the lynch will fail. What I find odd is that you haven't read the rules at the top of the front page. It explains all of this there.

What about a candlestick in the library? It was Professor Plum I know it.

I

knew

it. You just saved us all quite a bit of trouble.

What do think about mafia and do you have any suspicions in that regard. You seem like a smart player and I can follow your points, but you haven't made many in the last few posts, about why you have voted for anyone, besides that save the dragons said suspicious things. Could you enlighten me where you stand on the issues? (global warming, war on terror, etc.)

I can't really tell what you are asking/saying here. Can you elaborate please?

[armlx]

So you are saying that we can't use anything he does as a tell because he's new?

No, I'm saying the tell that is being relied on just off that post is weak at best, even more so in context of his game experience.

[Moses le fou]

Why would have Puta signed up for a game with ZazieR in the first place?

Elaborate plz?

Second, I have a fairly good idea as to why PutaPuta flaked here and not in other games. I think it's ZazieR. I remember randomly stumbling accross a game with the both of them in it, and PutaPuta expressed displeasure right off the bat upon discovering that ZazieR was there too. I believe that the accusation was something like PutaPuta accusing ZazieR of 'being a dick' to him/her in previous games. It's just speculation, but I see that as the most likely reason, especially considering no one had suspected any of them when they left.

I would think that if somebody had that big of a problem with another player (where that person would quit games the player was in), that person would not replace into a game where said player was playing.

I'm not necessarily saying that I buy BM's theory that Puta dropped from this game because he's scum, but Kairyuu's counter-theory that he dropped because of ZazieR doesn't hold much water.