Mini 702--Serum & Steel(The rust has settled/Game Over)

[Illumina]

Although it may just be MSSK, it's hard not to find his recent behavior suspicious. I'll vote for him if he doesn't post his entire role PM shortly.

Today's a travel day for me, so expect more tomorrow.

[CF Riot]

I'm not saying my role will be game breaking ever. I'm just trying to say that you won't gain anything by hearing it, I promise you that. However, I think you could

potentially

lose something. If I don't ever get the serum again that's fine. But my point is you should ask me to claim just because I

probably

won't get the serum again.

Although Grem you caught something I didn't think about. Since I'm for serum-vigging SSK, I'm going to synth him today, so that he'll still be able to die by D3. What do you think of SSK? What do you think of Tony Montana?
----
Porkens, what would you say about a Tony Montana lynch? If you are against, why would your lynch candidate be better? If that candidate is SSK, would you say the serum-vig idea is a good play?
----
Vi, do you think SSK is more likely town or scum, and why? Would you support serum-vigging him? Why do you want to serum me? What do you think of Tony Montana? You never said why you think Illumina is townish. Can you explain?
----
Illumina, what do you think of Tony Montana? Do you still support the serum vig idea?

Unsynth. Synth: MafiaSSK
Extension plz.

[Vi]

1) I'm just really, really mad at TE for distructing the game with his boned-up play.
2) This set-up is convoluted, and 99% of the discussion has been centered on it's mechanics.
3) In your fantasy land, where people don't talk about the dynamics of the game, what would you like to see discussed?
4) Realize, too, that looking at how people have discussed the mechanics of the game is just as valid as looking at who they want to lynch and why.

1) This was done AFTER your call for Wall-E's claim. Besides, he's hardly the only person who "distructed" the game.
2) For better or (mostly) worse. The thing is, talking solely about the mechanics doesn't find scum.
3) Straw man. Talking about the setup is quite warranted, but not

exclusively

. I would sooner talk to the players about what they want to do and why, and get at their motives.
4) And you've done

such

a good job of it~ [/obvsarcasm]

2. I don't get it.

Just checking - What is your concept of "Pro-Town behavior"?

3. "He, being MafiaSSKK?" In your question, you asked what would I think if he flipped town. I had been talking about 2 people at the time. This sentence is clarifying which person you/I meant by

he

And immediately afterward you answered as if I were referring to MafiaSSK.

----

But my point is you should ask me to claim just because I probably won't get the serum again.

*blink* Reword what you're saying? This seems to go against what you've said so far.
(Of course, if you want to claim, you have my permission.)

1) Vi, do you think SSK is more likely town or scum, and why?
2) Would you support serum-vigging him?
3) Why do you want to serum me?
4) What do you think of Tony Montana?
5) You never said why you think Illumina is townish. Can you explain?

1) Not enough information. But I don't see a reason for him to hang unless he keeps waffling about the Role PM.
2) No. Serum-vigging him assumes that we actually get something

useful

out of his results if he's Town. As of now he has failed to demonstrate this.
3) To serum-vig

you

.
4) To quote SpyreX's sig, "I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not Mafia." TonyMontana is begging for a noose, and I would not be surprised if he flips scum, but I think I've a better target for today.
5) Sure. While Illumina has not posted often, I think what has been posted is reasonably pro-Town; including an open mind on Timeater's metal claim and the pros and cons of mycosynthing him (ultimately coming down on the "right" side, given that I know my alignment). I'm not extremely confident in this determination, though. I would like for Illumina to provide a player-by-player assessment soon.

[Porkens]

1) This was done AFTER your call for Wall-E's claim. Besides, he's hardly the only person who "distructed" the game.
2) For better or (mostly) worse. The thing is, talking solely about the mechanics doesn't find scum.
3) Straw man. Talking about the setup is quite warranted, but not

exclusively

. I would sooner talk to the players about what they want to do and why, and get at their motives.
4) And you've done

such

a good job of it~ [/obvsarcasm]

1. He's the one I got pissed at, though. Who else ""distructed"" it?
2. It can.
3. uh huh, that's why I said

fantasy land

. So talking about "

what they want to do

" you differentiate from what I've been doing.
4. These insults aren't constructive.

2. I don't get it.

Just checking - What is your concept of "Pro-Town behavior"?

I...you...you want the list or something? Could you just re-state the origional question?

3. "He, being MafiaSSKK?" In your question, you asked what would I think if he flipped town. I had been talking about 2 people at the time. This sentence is clarifying which person you/I meant by

he

And immediately afterward you answered as if I were referring to MafiaSSK.

Right, I made it clear about whome I was talking, and then I talked. Was that wrong in some way?

----

But my point is you should ask me to claim just because I probably won't get the serum again.

*blink* Reword what you're saying? This seems to go against what you've said so far.
(Of course, if you want to claim, you have my permission.)[/quote]

QFT

[CF Riot]

But my point is you should

not

ask me to claim just because I probably won't get the serum again.

Fixed. Sorry, that goof completely reversed the intended meaning. Do you understand or agree with me in the fixed version?

1) Not enough information. But I don't see a reason for him to hang unless he keeps waffling about the Role PM.
2) No. Serum-vigging him assumes that we actually get something

useful

out of his results if he's Town. As of now he has failed to demonstrate this.
3) To serum-vig

you

.
4) To quote SpyreX's sig, "I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not Mafia." TonyMontana is begging for a noose, and I would not be surprised if he flips scum, but I think I've a better target for today.
5) Sure. While Illumina has not posted often, I think what has been posted is reasonably pro-Town; including an open mind on Timeater's metal claim and the pros and cons of mycosynthing him (ultimately coming down on the "right" side, given that I know my alignment). I'm not extremely confident in this determination, though. I would like for Illumina to provide a player-by-player assessment soon.

1) Is okay, but I think the waffling that's happened already is enough.
2) and 3) seem to contradict each other. It's been said that if I'm town my results weren't useful either, so why is it okay to vig me but not SSK? What info would you get if I flipped town? I think SSK's power has the potential to be helpful, if he gets lucky on his target. It just depends on how transparent their role is.
4) Eh. I think Pork is town. I don't have great reason to though so I can't really argue this one. All I can say is compromise with me since we're about to be deadlined and you think TM is possible scum anyways.
5) is meh. I don't really have a read either way I just wanted you to back up your claims.
----

Porkens

, can you answer the questions to you from 851?

Votes? Please? Is the whole deadline rush thing really that fun?

[Porkens]

Porkens, what would you say about a Tony Montana lynch? If you are against, why would your lynch candidate be better? If that candidate is SSK, would you say the serum-vig idea is a good play?

I'd lynch Tony Montana, sure. I think I mentioned him in an earlier post as a second choice.

I think the serum-vig idea is probably the best use of the serum I've seen proposed so far.

[MafiaSSK]

Although it may just be MSSK, it's hard not to find his recent behavior suspicious. I'll vote for him if he doesn't post his entire role PM shortly.

Today's a travel day for me, so expect more tomorrow.

Even though I havE?

[Gremwell]

we're looking for a direct pm quote in thread please^

[Vi]

1. He's the one I got pissed at, though. Who else ""distructed"" it?
2. It can.
3. uh huh, that's why I said fantasy land. So talking about "what they want to do" you differentiate from what I've been doing.
4. These insults aren't constructive.

1) Everyone that contributed to the D1 fiasco.
2) You don't have anything to show for it.
3) You talk about the setup. I talk about people. That's why I have more opinions than what's utterly obvious and based on what's happened in the last two pages.
4) Yes they are; they're another way of looking at why I'm voting you.

I...you...you want the list or something? Could you just re-state the origional question?

No.
Come on, it's so obvious you don't have

any interest

in who's doing what.

Right, I made it clear about whome I was talking, and then I talked. Was that wrong in some way?

You know very well that I'm referring to what you said after acknowledging that you were talking about SSK as the issue.
After thirty-plus pages of reading this game and noting your posts, I refuse to believe you're this dense.

Furthermore, you've chosen to be AGAINST a deadline extension when there's no majority in any direction and the 'line is in two days. If you really are this dense, and/or if you are Town-aligned in the end, I'm going to be... upset at the endgame.

--------

Do you understand or agree with me in the fixed version?

I disagree.
Without giving you the serum, you'll remain a Vanilla Townie with some extra information you're keeping from the Town, and you'll probably STAY a Vanilla Townie. Has it occurred to you that other people may get better results from the serum? It's awful hard to judge whether you should get it when we have no way of quantifying it outside your vague references.

1) Is okay, but I think the waffling that's happened already is enough.
2) and 3) seem to contradict each other. It's been said that if I'm town my results weren't useful either, so why is it okay to vig me but not SSK? What info would you get if I flipped town? I think SSK's power has the potential to be helpful, if he gets lucky on his target. It just depends on how transparent their role is.
4) Eh. I think Pork is town. I don't have great reason to though so I can't really argue this one. All I can say is compromise with me since we're about to be deadlined and you think TM is possible scum anyways.
5) is meh. I don't really have a read either way I just wanted you to back up your claims.

1) I'm too kind.
2 and 3) Because of the great lengths you're going to to keep yourself from saying what your role is, combined with your insistence that it's nothing special. Something doesn't match, but since if it's any good it's likely to be better than what SSK has to offer, I'll bite.
4) Reconsider that Porkens opinion for me. Meanwhile, I'll consider it but I'm still quite wary, especially since my #1 for scum endorses his lynch.
5) Who DO you have a read on?

[Porkens]

1. He's the one I got pissed at, though. Who else ""distructed"" it?
2. It can.
3. uh huh, that's why I said fantasy land. So talking about "what they want to do" you differentiate from what I've been doing.
4. These insults aren't constructive.

1) Everyone that contributed to the D1 fiasco.
2) You don't have anything to show for it.
3) You talk about the setup. I talk about people. That's why I have more opinions than what's utterly obvious and based on what's happened in the last two pages.
4) Yes they are; they're another way of looking at why I'm voting you.

I...you...you want the list or something? Could you just re-state the origional question?

No.
Come on, it's so obvious you don't have

any interest

in who's doing what.

Right, I made it clear about whome I was talking, and then I talked. Was that wrong in some way?

You know very well that I'm referring to what you said after acknowledging that you were talking about SSK as the issue.
After thirty-plus pages of reading this game and noting your posts, I refuse to believe you're this dense.

Furthermore, you've chosen to be AGAINST a deadline extension when there's no majority in any direction and the 'line is in two days. If you really are this dense, and/or if you are Town-aligned in the end, I'm going to be... upset at the endgame.

--------

Do you understand or agree with me in the fixed version?

I disagree.
Without giving you the serum, you'll remain a Vanilla Townie with some extra information you're keeping from the Town, and you'll probably STAY a Vanilla Townie. Has it occurred to you that other people may get better results from the serum? It's awful hard to judge whether you should get it when we have no way of quantifying it outside your vague references.

1) Is okay, but I think the waffling that's happened already is enough.
2) and 3) seem to contradict each other. It's been said that if I'm town my results weren't useful either, so why is it okay to vig me but not SSK? What info would you get if I flipped town? I think SSK's power has the potential to be helpful, if he gets lucky on his target. It just depends on how transparent their role is.
4) Eh. I think Pork is town. I don't have great reason to though so I can't really argue this one. All I can say is compromise with me since we're about to be deadlined and you think TM is possible scum anyways.
5) is meh. I don't really have a read either way I just wanted you to back up your claims.

1) I'm too kind.
2 and 3) Because of the great lengths you're going to to keep yourself from saying what your role is, combined with your insistence that it's nothing special. Something doesn't match, but since if it's any good it's likely to be better than what SSK has to offer, I'll bite.
4) Reconsider that Porkens opinion for me. Meanwhile, I'll consider it but I'm still quite wary, especially since my #1 for scum endorses his lynch.
5) Who DO you have a read on?

Does that slot have a post restriction of "must post like an over-generalizing and beligerent jack-ass?" JUST CHECKING.

[Vi]

Does that slot have a post restriction of "must post like an over-generalizing and beligerent jack-ass?" JUST CHECKING.

Yes, it--*checks again* ...well, it

should

.
Belligerent, perhaps. Jack-ass, well, only on my better days (you're one to talk, btw). Over-generalizing? Now

that

I take offense to. Give me some examples.

Also, act pro-Town for a change. Tell me who you have any opinions on. I've heard that SpyreX was Town for undefined reasons (830), SSK is scum because he hasn't fullclaimed, and I'm scum because of a claim way way back on Page 3. Beyond that, you generally don't talk about people. IIoA, very much so.

You can also tell me why you're against a deadline extension when the Town needs it so badly.

[CF Riot]

I have a read on half of the players as town, half as lurkers/probably scum, and SSK as more likely scum than town, but hard to read. Of the 4 lurkers I think Gremwell is most town. (I know this conflicts with my earlier synth vote, but I think I've changed my mind since then.) I'd put it as TM, Geraintm, small gap, Illumina.

SSK dodged again. Just sayin'. And I'm not trying to get the serum at endgame. I think I said that before. I'm just saying, I

could

still get it late-game, and it

could

be helpful. Sure, there may be a much better serum candidate by then, and if so I'll gladly vote them over myself. My only real argument is I don't want to claim yet. It wouldn't help the town at all. If you think I'm scum take whatever measures you want against me. If the whole town wants me lynched, I'll claim. But if you believe me enough to keep me around a little longer, just be patient. I'll claim when I need to.
----

Gremwell

, 851 plz. Who do you want to lynch and why?
----
I'm going ahead with my serum plan unless anyone else has a better idea. No one has really said anything about the serum today, except Vi who wants to kill me with it, which I'm against.

Mod: Votecount Plz.

Serum: MafiaSSK

[Porkens]

Over-generalizing? Now

that

I take offense to. Give me some examples.

You're portraying what I've posted as 100% mechanics-based when they are not. You've said I'm "SO uninterested in what people say/do/act/pro-town"

Also, act pro-Town for a change. Tell me who you have any opinions on. I've heard that SpyreX was Town for undefined reasons (830), SSK is scum because he hasn't fullclaimed, and I'm scum because of a claim way way back on Page 3. Beyond that, you generally don't talk about people. IIoA, very much so.

This is a good example. The three things you say; yeah those are some of the example you're looking for. If you want others, I suggest you re-read my posts in this thread, I'm not going to hunt them down for you.

You can also tell me why you're against a deadline extension when the Town needs it so badly.

Sure; This game has had plenty of time on this day. I don't think it's time to use our

one-shot

extra extension.

[Porkens]

If it comes to the 3rd and we're facing a no-lynch, then yes, certainly I'll vote for an extension.

[ortolan]

I would like an extension specifically to avoid the temptation of lynching someone at the last second.

The case against MafiaSSK is extremely insubstantial, I have no idea why it's gained momentum so quickly.

If CF Riot were actually town, that would be the best thing ever considering he's been so dominant at shaping the actions of town this game and many seemingly blindly follow. I don't understand in the slightest why so few people find him scummy.

It wouldn't help the town at all. If you think I'm scum take whatever measures you want against me. If the whole town wants me lynched, I'll claim. But if you believe me enough to keep me around a little longer, just be patient. I'll claim when I need to.

If he's scum and town swallows this then they just gave him the easiest ride to a win ever.

On getting a claim out of me, what do you think are the benefits and the drawbacks? Consider you do get me to claim, and I lay out something vaguely similar to the town PMs already given. It seems townish, but very unverifiable. You gain very little (IMO) supporting evidence against me, and at the same time very little reason to believe me. The mafia on the other hand (assuming I'm town) can potentially weigh my role against their idea of the rest of the town, and prioritize their kill accordingly. If they find out my steel/flesh status, they either gain a failsafe kill they may need near endgame, or learn not to try it, giving them a higher chance of hitting flesh from another target. I don't think it will help you at all to know my role. I know the likelihood of me getting the serum again is lower than some, but it's not zero. I'd prefer to keep my role hidden until that happens.

Firstly; your ability did something in the context of the game- either it allowed you to investigate someone or perform an action on someone else. Thus you will have something to show for your ability, not just what the ability is. There are no conceivable abilities which would benefit from not being revealed to the town. Arguing you don't want mafia to know your ability because there's a minimal chance you may get the serum again and an unknown chance your ability may be useful is just not a good enough reason in light of all the benefits claiming your ability and having it confirmed as pro-town will bring. For example, if you proved to me your ability was pro-town I would no longer need to suspect you and we could get on with the real business of hunting scum. Surely if you're town this alone is a good enough reason for revealing your ability, regardless of whether or not you have a slight chance of getting to use it again.

Also, not only have you not claimed, but you've put an incredible amount of suspicion on MafiaSSK *for* claiming.

Earlier you implied you were metal and also do not seem concerned about getting the serum again, as you have not referred to being serum-vigged upon receiving the serum a second time. Thus, you are metal (but have not claimed such, I had to read between the lines to discern this).

Essentially you've given yourself a mafioso's end-game survival kit. You've presented basically meritless arguments for not revealing your ability to town (which is exactly what you'd want to do as mafia, as your ability is anti-town, and you've also refused to explicitly claim your metal status, although it is now obvious you are in fact metal. The second is still scummy judged on Timeater's role pm claiming to be the only metal townie (some people have disagreed on this but I have seen no good evidence for not thinking so).

More thoughts:

MafiaSSK. The case against him seems to me to be paperthin. Considering how much crap flew back and forth on day one over Timeater's roleclaim it is not the *slightest* bit surprising that he used his ability on Timeater. Now is in danger of being "serum-vigged" for it based on the same bandwagon of leaders and followers we've seen all game.

Illumina: Doesn't post enough, comes out of the woodwork to offer serum to Porkens/CF Riot and tows the line on the MafiaSSK serum. Not enough skepticism about their cases. I remember someone calling him the "towniest" player earlier which is surprising in light of how little he has posted.

Porkens: still suspect in my eyes. I read another game he was in in which he was instrumental in winning the game for the town, modded by xyzzy. His play seemed both intelligent and skeptical. Mostly in this game he seems to parrot CF Riot's suspicions with slight variations here and there. Attacks MafiaSSK for not quoting his entire role pm while siding with CF Riot who has offered absolutely nothing about his role. Btw, MafiaSSK *should* just quote his role pm immediately, he has no reason for not doing so. I'm skeptical that would stop the bandwagon however. Also:

And this sentence doesn't have a clear meaning, can you restate it:

I can't help but feel that CF's claim that his unclaimed ability may come in handy later if he's kept alive that long, while it apparently served no good last night and he doesn't want it tonight.

The implications of this sentence are very clear to me even if it's grammatically imperfect. I notice apart from critiquing this aspect of it you don't respond do it or even deem the point relevant, and then neglect to bring it up again. Why do you never seem to question CF Riot's towniness?

Gremwell reads town, especially recently. He seems to be one of the few who agree with me about CF Riot (post 831).

Regarding the serum, I still want it, obviously. I would like to hear cases for why I shouldn't get it (as most people said they believed my role claim).

More precisely, I would like the town's serum and think Seraphim should decide who the recipient of his serum should be. I wish Seraphim would post more as his role and behaviour make him one of the most likely townies.

geraintm and TonyMontana really, really don't post enough. If they're town then they're disadvantaging us. If they're scum then they're doing a fine job.

Serum: ortolan
Mycosynth: CF Riot

Not sure who to vote for yet, or if it will even be profitable if all the townies are flesh now.

[CF Riot]

If I reveal my role, and how I used it, it will not make me appear any more or any less townish. Again, if tomorrow, at lylo, hell even today if you're fast enough, if people (plural) think I'm scum, I'll claim. It doesn't help for me to claim in any other scenario. I'm almost to the point of claiming just to get you off my back but you have no reason to believe my claim AND it hurts the town. I'm not asking for a ride to endgame. I'm just saying I don't need to claim until I'm facing death.

Ort, answer me this though. From your role PM, does it look like you will get some power from the serum? I know in mine, it STRONGLY hints at what my ability is, enough to where I

guessed

at what I could do before I got the serum. I REALLY think serum-vigging SSK is a great play, and I've had a few people agree with me. But, I do sort of think you're town now, and it couldn't hurt giving a town player some power. If you really think it'll help, I'll vote to serum you.

[ortolan]

If I reveal my role, and how I used it, it will not make me appear any more or any less townish.

Well it can't have been a particularly useful ability then can it? At least if you did you'd give me more to think about.

And yes, I'm about 99% sure what my ability is from my role pm.

[CF Riot]

Unserum. Serum: Ortolan

Money, meet mouth. I'll ignore your last question because I still believe in scum knowing as little as possible. I doubt it would clear me in your eyes. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. And like I said, if you're the only one suspicious of me anyways, I don't need to give you more to think about. I'm not just trying to be difficult, I'm trying to play the safest town game I can. I think it would do you good to at least

consider

the possibility that I'm town, and try to figure out who could be scum if that is the case. At the very least, I could be scum and you could find one of my buddies. Couldn't hurt.

[CF Riot]

Unserum. Serum: Ortolan

/sigh. Codes.

[ortolan]

I've certainly considered the possibility that you're town, but imo the risk of you not being town is too great for the minimal pressure that's been placed on you currently

[geraintm]

no, you said they were both scum....

In my heart, I think they are. In reality, probably only one of them is.

sorry, but if people say i am lurking, i give explanations of why.

appology accepted.

was i apologising???

and can you explain then how you think they are both scum? are you going along with my summary in 841 at the end?? is that what you think has happened?

1. Actually, have you defended MafiaSSK? Not overtly. I'll go on record right now (again) as saying that if MSSK is scum, your role, however stupidly played by TE, is probably town.

i don't understand. you said like 2 posts before you thought in your heart they were both scum, but then say there you think time/vi isn't?
what on earth do you mean?

re: serum vigging mafia. is this a good idea? if he is town, then is rolecop a good enough role to go with for an extra day?

mafia - post 856 doesn't seem good enough in the circumstances
glad riot backed up previous statements in 861 and went through with the vote

The case against MafiaSSK is extremely insubstantial, I have no idea why it's gained momentum so quickly.

he is being evasive, and i was never a fan once i saw his target and result.

Riot - post 865, you are being as evasive as Mafia is

Vote: riotcf

Mycosynth: mafiascum

and i want Porkens to explain his opinion on time/vi and mafia

[Porkens]

i don't understand. you said like 2 posts before you thought in your heart they were both scum, but then say there you think time/vi isn't?

In my heart, I think they are both scum. In my brain, I think only one of them can be.

A sentence that begins with 'sorry' is an apology.

[geraintm]

porkens, can you pour out your heart to us then and explain why you think they are both scum, i just don't see it myself and would really like you to explain

[Porkens]

@Ort: I'm so torn about you.

You're basically presenting a "too good to keep alive" stance on CF.

I'm sorry but no, that sentence we've been talking about doesn't make clear sense. It's meaning is ambiguous. Is "may come in handy later if he's kept alive that long" part of CF's claim, or part of what the speaker feels? If the intent is the latter, then that's a pretty bad "gut feeling" to go off of.

I guess I really can't argue against giving the serum to Ort, if he wants it. Read my analysis of the claims if you don't understand why. I know this goes against my anti-serum stance, but I think empowering someone I really, really think is town is more important.

Serum: Ort

It hurts my

head

when I read how much leeway you are all giving to MSSK. It's not as crappy a case as you make out. What has he contributed to the game? Almost nothing. Is is "power" useful to the town? No. Does it make sense as a town ability? No. And he really hasn't pasted his PM yet? REALLY? Is there anyone else here who could 'misunderstand' our request for a full c/p? I honestly don't think so.

Vote: MafiaSSK

and

Mycosynth: Serraphim

I'm not going to be able to post during the day today. Which is too bad, because this game is really getting interesting and I imagine a lot will happen today.

[Porkens]

porkens, can you pour out your heart to us then and explain why you think they are both scum, i just don't see it myself and would really like you to explain

I think you should re-read.