Mini 702--Serum & Steel(The rust has settled/Game Over)

[CF Riot]

Do you mean to be serumed? I was considering that actually. If he's town, role cop is semi-strong. If he's lying (which we would have a better idea of after the result) he's essentially been slow-vigged. Fairly nice way to move us to odd numbers without the pain of no-lynching. Is this what you were getting at or something else entirely?

[Illumina]

CF: I'd consider Porkens first, then maybe you (if you wanted it, which you've said you don't).

And I agree with Vi and CF on Tony, 798 seems like a good lead. For Gremwell's logic to really make sense there (in 301), it would have to be good play for scum to kill whoever was myco'd each time. I'm not sure that's the case, so it reads like there's an ulterior motive.

Vote: Gremwell

Mycosynth: Tony Montana

[Nicol Bolas]

You must unvote/unserum/unsynth to vote a different person. CF Riot, do you understand this.

Of note, also is that deadline's been pushed to Wednesday, due to SUPERSPECIALAWESOME Swim Meets.

Vote Count
ortolan(1): CF Riot
Vi(1): TonyMontana
MafiaSSK(1): Porkens
Gremwell(1): Illumina
Not Voting: ortolan, Vi, MafiaSSK, Gremwell, geraintm, Seraphim

Serum Count
CF Riot(1): ortolan
Not Seruming: Vi, CF Riot, MafiaSSK, Porkens, Gremwell, Seraphim, TonyMontana, geraintm, Illumina

Mycosynth Count
MafiaSSK(1): CF Riot
Ortolan(1): Seraphim
TonyMontana(1): Illumina
Not Synthing: ortolan, Vi, MafiaSSK, Gremwell, TonyMontana, geraintm, Porkens

To establish majority: Six
Deadline: TWednesday, December 3rd

[CF Riot]

Unvote.

Unsynth. Synth: Gremwell. Vote: Tony Montana.

[Vi]

Oh, you are so kidding me. My post was here, but now it's gone. Here's what I remember, or the short version of what I remember at least.

TonyMontana: Your idea of activity bites. You've been obv-active lurking throughout.

Gremwell: You're not far behind.

Illumina: You manage to be just better than the above for contributing a little at a time.

ortolan: I'm on the fence at this point. You were kicked around like a sports ball yesterday for reasons I don't disagree with IIRC, but I'm not sure if you're actually scum.

Porkens: Talking mostly about the setup during the first half of D1 bites. You said something in 444 (thereabouts) that needed clarification; don't remember what. It looks like ~449 you claimed serum-fueled Cop; is this accurate?

CF Riot: You said you didn't want to be mycosynthed, but you also said you didn't want to divulge what your serum did. I can understand one at a time, but not both. Well, let me ask this - why the secrecy?

Seraphim: When you post, it's to tell people you're not posting. Seriously, I'm disappointed more heat has not been heaped on you. The only thing saving you IMO is your candyman claim, which seems to have been verified and is pretty terribly overpowered for scum.

SSK: I'm all for giving you the serum again tonight PENDING a full reveal of zetta everything you know. Your Role Cop ability doesn't seem too useful with what you've shown us.

geraintm: Bluntly, I'm allergic to your style of typing. It doesn't look like I missed much.

Vote (Lynch): TonyMontana
Vote (Mycosynth): Gremwell

Will answer questions if you like.

[MafiaSSK]

SSK: I'm all for giving you the serum again tonight PENDING a full reveal of zetta everything you know. Your Role Cop ability doesn't seem too useful with what you've shown us.

What I quoted was all I got. Isn't confirming a role good enough to get the serum again?

[Vi]

What I quoted was all I got. Isn't confirming a role good enough to get the serum again?

Hardly

.
I can quote the first five words of my own Role PM easily enough without fearing my alignment or abilities becoming public. Having someone else say just that much is practically useless IMO.

Or did I miss some extra disclosure over "Triskellion, steel fleet"?

[MafiaSSK]

What I quoted was all I got. Isn't confirming a role good enough to get the serum again?

Hardly

.
I can quote the first five words of my own Role PM easily enough without fearing my alignment or abilities becoming public. Having someone else say just that much is practically useless IMO.

Or did I miss some extra disclosure over "Triskellion, steel fleet"?

Can catch scum in a lie.

[Vi]

Can catch scum in a lie.

I can quote the first five words of my own Role PM easily enough without fearing my alignment or abilities becoming public.

Now if we massclaim,

we can all have Pie_ that is_Good

that might be more worthwhile as a safeclaim-breaker, but other than that I don't see your ability as a big deal.

[CF Riot]

@Vi: There's no reason to tell you guys either of those things. Neither would help you find scum. It's possible, though not certain, that if I told you one, the other, or both of those things, scum would benefit. That's the reasoning. If a large portion of the town thinks I'm scum I'll do whatever I can to prove you're wrong and explain anything you want to that end. Until then, I think it's best I keep as much info from the scum as possible.

I am curious as to what MafiaSSK got out of the serum, although obviously not sure if it's in our best interest for him to tell us. That's his call. I take it you didn't get to use your new ability, CF Riot?

Why do you assume that SSK's power worked, but assume mine did not?

Did you ever answer this? If so I don't remember it.

[Porkens]

Porkens: Talking mostly about the setup during the first half of D1 bites. You said something in 444 (thereabouts) that needed clarification; don't remember what. It looks like ~449 you claimed serum-fueled Cop; is this accurate?

I've done no such thing, I'm not sure where you got this from.

@CF; I was wondering why you didn't want to

lynch

MSSK.

[TonyMontana]

I am curious as to what MafiaSSK got out of the serum, although obviously not sure if it's in our best interest for him to tell us. That's his call. I take it you didn't get to use your new ability, CF Riot?

Why do you assume that SSK's power worked, but assume mine did not?

Did you ever answer this? If so I don't remember it.[/quote]
I assumed you got serumed during the night, and wouldn't be abled to utilise it until the next.

[Natirasha]

Anyone else willing to replace into Kirby Mafia?

[MafiaSSK]

Anyone else willing to replace into Kirby Mafia?

It is a great game about one of the greatest video game series of all time. C'mon. Its worth a shot. And its an easy read. /shamelessplug

[SpyreX]

i will if need be

[ortolan]

First of all I meant to reply to this in my last post but must have forgotten:

Um, NO. Another ridiculous straw man,

This doesn't have anything to do with you being scum, but I'd like to know if you understand the definition of "straw man". You're using the term incorrectly. To straw man is to pick out one part of an argument and use it in an attempt to cast doubt on the argument as a whole. I'm not doing that. I'm destroying every point you make one by one, each with emphasis relative to how bad of a point it is, and only leaving out parts that would hurt the town for me to answer, (like asking me what my role is or what I did with it.)

Actually you're entirely wrong about what a straw man is. A straw man is an argument which misrepresents an opponent's position in order to make it easier to refute (see Wikipedia). It has nothing to do with "pick(ing) out one part of an argument and us(ing) it in an attempt to cast doubt on the argument as a whole." I wouldn't have commented but it's pretty bad form to try to correct someone's *correct* usage of a term with your own *incorrect* usage.

I've done a re-read of more recent posts from since Timeater was replaced.

It makes little sense that the attention seems to have dropped off Timeater/Vi since Vi replaced in. If you thought Timeater was scum, you should think Vi is scum.

I dislike Tony's lurking (and observed such previously) but really, half the town is guilty of lurking. Seraphim's the only one with a decent excuse for doing so due to his ability. Illumina, geraintm, Gremwell and TonyMontana all need to post more (and in Tony's case I'd like to see longer than one line posts for the most part). I would hate to think we gave the game to scum because almost half the town couldn't be bothered contributing properly.

But if I had support my main goal would be a roleclaim out of CF Riot. Come on, am I the only person that finds an abject refusal to claim an ability in this situation- when he's probably already had his only use out of it, extremely anti-town? To pre-empt, yes I am rolefishing- I do want to know your role.

[Vi]

Anyone else willing to replace into Kirby Mafia?

It is a great game about one of the greatest video game series of all time. C'mon. Its worth a shot. And its an easy read. /shamelessplug

I'll do it

Actual post to come soon-ish. However, ortolan is correct that I have the same Role PM as Timeater, and if you thought he was scum, I don't expect you to hold back on me.

[CF Riot]

@Porkens: I don't know. Maybe. I think serum-vigging him might be better. There is a chance he's telling the truth, in which case his power might be useful tonight for one of the lurkers who are really hard to read at this point. If he gives a guilty result good, if he gives a townish sounding result and then flips scum from serum-overdose, it narrows the field suspects while still letting us lynch other people for information. What would you say in support of lynching him vs. serum-killing him or otherwise leaving him alone?

What do you think about the 4 lurkers? Which is most scummy, and do you agree with my lynch and synth votes?
----

Ort, who would you serum if it were up to you?

Ort, opinion?

On straw-manning I suppose we're both right. I was getting my definition from this:

Also, "Strawmanning" involves taking a small piece of the case someone has built up that is weaker than their other points and blowing it up. They can then defeat the weaker point and use that as 'proof' that everything that person has said is wrong.

But I did see that your definition is correct. I feel like I am not misrepping your case though. It feels like I've addressed everything you've said (which is a lot) so I don't think I could misrep all of it to my own benefit.

On getting a claim out of me, what do you think are the benefits and the drawbacks? Consider you do get me to claim, and I lay out something vaguely similar to the town PMs already given. It seems townish, but very unverifiable. You gain very little (IMO) supporting evidence against me, and at the same time very little reason to believe me. The mafia on the other hand (assuming I'm town) can potentially weigh my role against their idea of the rest of the town, and prioritize their kill accordingly. If they find out my steel/flesh status, they either gain a failsafe kill they may need near endgame, or learn not to try it, giving them a higher chance of hitting flesh from another target. I don't think it will help you at all to know my role. I know the likelihood of me getting the serum again is lower than some, but it's not zero. I'd prefer to keep my role hidden until that happens.

[ortolan]

On getting a claim out of me, what do you think are the benefits and the drawbacks? Consider you do get me to claim, and I lay out something vaguely similar to the town PMs already given. It seems townish, but very unverifiable. You gain very little (IMO) supporting evidence against me, and at the same time very little reason to believe me. The mafia on the other hand (assuming I'm town) can potentially weigh my role against their idea of the rest of the town, and prioritize their kill accordingly. If they find out my steel/flesh status, they either gain a failsafe kill they may need near endgame, or learn not to try it, giving them a higher chance of hitting flesh from another target. I don't think it will help you at all to know my role. I know the likelihood of me getting the serum again is lower than some, but it's not zero. I'd prefer to keep my role hidden until that happens.

If you're town then you gained an ability which helps town in some way- I don't care about your role, I care about your ability. You had to use your ability either last night or today. I want to know what that ability was, and there seems a good chance it's verifiable (which would make you look more pro-town, obviously). As you yourself have acknowledged, if you get the serum again it amounts to slow-vigging you so I think it highly unlikely you would want the serum again. Even if you do, however, it seems unlikely someone would want to give it to you without you specifically requesting it by claiming what your ability does. Do you see my logic now? I don't see, if you're town, what the point of withholding what your ability is and how you used it.

[ortolan]

Oh, sorry I forgot.

Ort, who would you serum if it were up to you?

Ort, opinion?

Me. I know I am town even if others disbelieve me, but I actually think there's decent reasons for the town to elect to give me the serum also. Firstly, if you believed my claimed role title earlier as most people seemed to (Glissa Sunseeker). Secondly as I have come under quite a bit of suspicion prior to that this game, if the scum decided to nightkill me purely because I had the serum, it wouldn't be a great loss for the town- and would at least mean I was cleared.

Apart from me I am weighing up whether MafiaSSK is a good target for the serum again. I don't like the idea of him being "slow vigged", and am curious as to why you, CF Riot, seem so keen to set in motion events which will lead to as many deaths as possible when there seems little evidence he, or even TonyMontana are scum at this point. I am also somewhat skeptical about the usefulness of his ability- it is still unclear what information we can gain from people's "roles"- the more important information may only be revealed by their faction and/or ability (the latter which they may not even know). That said I believe giving him the serum will do less harm than potentially giving it to someone who is scum will (as I do not think he is scum). Also, he wouldn't necessarily be slow vigged by it, assuming we continually feed him the serum every day after.

[Porkens]

I think serum-vigging him might be better.

Wait, did I miss a page or something? What are you talking about with serum-vigging?

[Natirasha]

i will if need be

MafiaSSK will send you the role PM shortly.

[CF Riot]

What I meant was I'm considering giving SSK the serum today, with the idea that after that we will not again. Thus, he gets one more investigation, then death, which will tell us whether the first two were valid or not. I suggest this because the way he talked about his power, who he used it on, his reluctance to come straight out with his result after blatantly describing what he did, all seem to be scummy. However the result itself and his claimed role give me enough doubt to wonder if he's town. Death this way would move us to odd numbers without no lynching, and I think would be slightly more efficient in that respect, as we're choosing the extra death rather than the mafia. I don't think I'd be comfortable with SSK being around in lylo, but I'm too skeptical to lynch him at this point, so the serum-vig seemed like a nice intermediate.

@Ort, yes we could potentially continue seruming SSK if for some reason he came off as incredibly townie after that and prevent the slow death. That is another perk to the plan. I just don't see that as very likely.

On my serum situation, I can tell you now that my role wouldn't be verifiable but it could still be useful. Although getting it again is potential serum-death, if I got it in an endgame situation, then I would be able to use it w/o dying until after the outcome has already been decided. Example: D4, 1 scum, 4 town. I get serumed, say we mislynch, I go into that night with powers and 3 other players alive. One gets NK'd, we go into D5 with (assuming I wasn't the one killed) 1 scum 2 town lylo, so if I die after the lynch it doesn't matter.

Now I'm not saying this is the best play or even what I want to happen. I'm just pointing out that there are scenarios that exist where giving me the serum again would benefit the town, and claiming my ability now may render those scenarios useless.

Next subject, do you see Tony Montana as particularly townish? At this point, would you consider him a good, mediocre, or bad lynch candidate? Why? Who do you think is the best candidate at this point? We only have 4 days till deadline, so I think we need to start making up our minds. I think Tony Montana is lurking horribly, and hasn't done anything particularly protown yet.

@

Porkens

:What would you say in support of lynching him vs. serum-killing him or otherwise leaving him alone?

What do you think about the 4 lurkers? Which is most scummy, and do you agree with my lynch and synth votes?

[Nicol Bolas]

Vote Count
TonyMontana(2): CF Riot, Vi
Vi(1): TonyMontana
MafiaSSK(1): Porkens
Gremwell(1): Illumina
Not Voting: ortolan, Vi, MafiaSSK, Gremwell, geraintm, Seraphim

Serum Count
CF Riot(1): ortolan
Not Seruming: Vi, CF Riot, MafiaSSK, Porkens, Gremwell, Seraphim, TonyMontana, geraintm, Illumina

Mycosynth Count
Ortolan(1): Seraphim
TonyMontana(1): Illumina
Gremwell(2): CF Riot, Vi
Not Synthing: ortolan, Vi, MafiaSSK, Gremwell, TonyMontana, geraintm, Porkens

To establish majority: Six
Deadline: Wednesday, December 3rd

Prodding geraintm (edit: And Seraphim). I also would like to allow you people to notice the deadline, which is only four days away.

[Seraphim]

I'll be V/LA until Wednesday, though I'll probably drop in sometime before deadline to put my vote down and such.