TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Shirou]

That's it about this point, back to gifs²

You feel so bothered by me that I feel it comes from town more often than scum in your position, so given I think it would be good for town if Italiano is scum, and funny if he's town, maybe if you tried you could convince me to vote there today because I'm already tired of this dayphase and not in the mood to go back to hardpushing Ausuka. (not that my read/confidence has changed)

[Aisa]

I'm catching up as we speak. I just reread Arko's last two posts
and
you know what
I'm ok with that wagon

[Aisa]

Ok I've finished rereading stuff and I'm surprisingly ok with the top 3 wagons (Arko, Ausuka, and Italiano). They're all like challenging in different ways and I could see myself voting each of them for some reason.

If people want to eliminate Arko they should consider how they would feel about eliminating the slot without a claim, or about eliminating someone who just replaced into the game. I'd feel best about waiting for a claim but I'll also eliminate without one if it comes down to it.

Arko:

obviously hasn't posted much and has been promising catch ups that don't always come.
But as I think I've mentioned before, I played with town them once and they mentioned how hard they found it to develop reads in that game too. This, to me, is the best reason to townread them: their lack of motivation here reminds me of their lack of motivation in previous games. The pace of their posts feels believable to me.
But I worry they've been leaning their meta a bit to avoid giving reads.

Ausuka:

I suspect this slot mainly for her interactions with Italiano, which is ironic given I'm also willing to wagon Italiano. There is some stuff about this in my ISO. I'm partly going off reputation - I feel like she'd be quite decent as scum so even though some of her posts are not bad I'm taking them with a grain of salt.

Italiano:

recent posting looks quite towny in some ways but if I squint juuust right I can see how scum could fake it. And there are posts that ping me. For example, this post:

To bad I can't post what's in our discord. I'll show you post game.

and i am pretty certain you are lying about it lmao

Okay.

Like I said, I'll show you post game and you can feel foolish when you actually see it.

I guess it does not seem totally out of character for town!Italiano. But I worry it could be an attempt to scare the readers into believing him.

[Shirou]

Ok so

After some thinking I've decided I don't really care or wanna play this game anymore right now so I'll go along with consensus whatever that is

Consensus right now is either Italiano or Arko

VOTE: Italiano

Can compromisse on Arko eventually even if I like it less than Italiano due to Italiano flip impacting how I would read Ausuka/the gamestate while Arko is kinda a nothingburguer for my gamestate read either way

/shrug

[Aisa]

Anyway I'm starting to feel a lot better about your slot Ausuka. As I said I think not having played with each before I'm guessing there is a leraning curve here. This interaction was good for me, not sure if it was for you, but I am feeling a lot better about this and maybe I was just wrong and caught up in the moment.

Can you say more precisely the moment you re-evaluated your read and what made you re-evaluate it?

Aisa

- From her first post to her last I've gotten nothing but good feels from Aisa. She even scumreads people in an adorable way. I don't think I've ever played with her, but I'm very happy that potentially my last game on site has her in it. As I said if she is scum I'm gonna be very sad.

I appreciate this (:

[Shirou]

My read on Ausuka hasn't changed to be clear

I'm just not caring about this game for a week or so I think

hopefully consensus is right I guess?

good luck to us

[Ausuka]

But I worry they've been leaning their meta a bit to avoid giving reads.

Ok so where does this happen

[Aisa]

They don't explicitly appeal to their meta anywhere I don't think
I mean that in general you'd aim to at least reproduce your town meta as scum, and if you happened to be a bit indecisive or slow to form reads you might... lean into that a bit

[Ausuka]

Refusal is a strong word. I can see if I literally said "I'm done engaging with you', but you asked me "Ok, so what about that suggests it was a forgone conclusion?" I responded with "my perception", meaning I perceived it to be that way in which I later told you why it felt like scum and not like town.

I still really don't understand this? Like, if you asked someone why they scumread something, and they answered "My perception " how would you react to that? It doesn't say anything about why you thought that way, it just seems like a reworded version of "That's what I think because that's what I think." This is my main hangup on my read of you - I don't see how, even if it was a town genuine thing, you don't at least see where I'm coming from here.

But in the previous interaction, I told you that I felt you were just asking the questions just to ask them to look busy. THAT was my answer to your question. I don't know how else to say. You asked me why I felt you were scummy, and I gave you an answer, then you reworded pretty much the same question you previously asked me, so I reiterated that it was my perception. If you're town I'm really sorry that we are not connecting mentally here. I honestly don't know how to else say what I've already said.

I mean, just like explaining why you think it's scummy instead of just saying "this is what I find scummy" - that's what I was asking? Like, *why* would asking a sensible question about a concern a lot of people have just be busywork?

From what I remember seeing while it was happening live and upon my lookback is that I was suspicious early on for saying what I said about DGB. That's the reason you even engaged with me in the first place and now you're trying to paint this picture that it was other reasons. And no, that is not the crime you are being accused of. Checking to understand the situation is fine in a vacuum. The reaction/response is the crime for me, which I've said multiple times already.

It's the same thing? Yeah, I thought you were suspicious for the DGB comment. I wanted to ask for context because sometimes I do misunderstand things. It's true that I was always going to vote for you if I wasn't misunderstanding anything, but how is that the same as the question being pointless?

If I said the question was pointless, it's not what I meant and I was just probably in the heat of moment. The question was not a problem for me. Questions are never a problem for me because I can answer them as best I can and as genuine and honest as I can, but fmpov if I do that and still get scumread for it and get voted on, then in my mind, I'm thinking 1) Why did they ask me this, what was the agenda or goal and 2) I answered truthfully and as best I could and that wasn't good enough for them.

Should I immediately go to that person being scum. Eh maybe, maybe not, but in my experience that is how I've caught scum before, but I do understand the situation is nuanced. Shrug.

I'm sort of struggling to understand what you're saying here? It might be a me problem, but like, isn't it sort of usual for town to scumread you according to what you've said about yourself? And like, I think I'd understand better if it was a normal early-game sort of scumread, but you called your read strong which is difficult to reconcile with this to me.

I think that we've had a clash of playstyles possibly. I haven't played with you before and you haven't played with me before. This is how I play, it's unorthodox and it's unconventional and even a little weird and think that's why I always get scumread. I'm seeing that maybe you need more progression from players instead of just naked votes, naked readslist, as well as reasons for why they feel the way they do. Honestly I thought I was giving that to you and others so far, but I guess I gotta go deeper; always room to grow and get better.

I should probably look in your games in more depth. I spectated a game with you in it (mini normal 2271) and was tr'ing you in that so initially I kinda disregarded the meta stuff but it was quite a long time ago now and I don't uh actually remember why or how I read you so like yeah I should effort at that more

Anyway I'm starting to feel a lot better about your slot Ausuka. As I said I think not having played with each before I'm guessing there is a leraning curve here. This interaction was good for me, not sure if it was for you, but I am feeling a lot better about this and maybe I was just wrong and caught up in the moment.

My read on you is more neutral. I'm probably gonna like check your game history and try to guess your alignment in games without looking at spoilers to test how true it is that I need experience to read you

[xofelf]

My Arko vote and read didn't come as a reaction to the Ausuka wagon. I had said earlier that after Italiano did his catchup that I was planning on looking over Arko if Italiano had improved at all, which he did. I had started my Arko iso read before I saw that DV had also recently voted, but like I also think this is town DV so it didn't bother me when that showed up in preview. That being said, I'm willing to vote elsewhere if that's what the town wants to do.

But I also don't think this is scum!Ausuka though. So i'd much prefer not to vote her.

[Ausuka]

They don't explicitly appeal to their meta anywhere I don't think
I mean that in general you'd aim to at least reproduce your town meta as scum, and if you happened to be a bit indecisive or slow to form reads you might... lean into that a bit

Sorry but i'm still not really getting this. What is your read on arko exactly? It kind of looked like you wrote a post that would defend him and the last line felt a bit, uh, tacked-on; is the explanation for arko not posting anything that anyone would townread and about to get replaced really a purposeful attempt to replicate his town meta in your eyes?

[Shirou]

ah for last I just think Italiano has decent odds of being scum with what ydra revealed + cerb comment IF Ausuka is town but I don't think Ausuka is town so

[Ausuka]

Hey shirou bestie are you in a hood with arko

[DeasVail]

Okay I've reread Italiano's posts and I think the main thing that's grinding my gears is a tendency from him to dismiss/almost ridicule other people's concerns about him/questions to him with what at least appears to me to be very muddy logic, and then when justifying his own reads/opinions with what sometimes just seems like a totally different reality.

I'm finding it tricky to explain, but on his interactions with me, for example:

Italiano's response to my post 590 in 867, ending with "I'm curious why you're concerned about only those two? You agree with everyone else on my list?" implies that it is weird that I only asked for elaboration on two of his reads, when I don't think it's weird at all? And then when I question this in post 886, his response in [post=889] just dismisses the whole thing and turns it around on me by suggesting that I have no reason to think he is scum.

And on that, I did post thoughts on Italiano in 512. I wouldn't say that my reasons were particularly strong, a lot of it is admittedly "this is just how I FEEL" style, but why does Italiano not engage me on that? Why does he instead act as if there is no case on him and imply that I have no reasons for suspecting him?

I just feel very bamboozled by it, and I've noticed similar patterns with Ausuka and even Koba. But I think I've been struggling to get beyond the yuck feeling and actually think through whether this is more likely from scum or not.

[Ausuka]

Wait should I be calling shirou my worstie

[DeasVail]

frenemestie?

[Ausuka]

i know that arko is a "low info" slot by virtue of his posts but it's kind of fascinating that the ausuka wagon pops up and then we have the arko one like, competing with it like this and then the italiano one is kind of there (and disintegrates a little bit because dv leaves the wagon)

Fascinating is a fascinating word to use here but I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

i've been trying to word this properly for a moment but fascinating is the best word that comes to mind because i feel like this is the first point in the game that there's an actual choice to make between wagons rather than just throwing a vote down on a 2-person one and then nothing happens

for you i'm going off of 864 because it has direct reference to your reads and the people voting you but from your pov as i understand it you seem fairly lukewarm on most of the people voting arko rn or no stance, including on arko himself. does like a wagon suddenly popping up to oppose yours (assuming youre town) help strengthen your read on any of these people?

for me i feel as if that wagon is the "stronger" one in that i've had or had (!) townreads on everyone on it thus far but i've also thought that arko was sounding a little towny at some point, but i'm still inclined to join it because of the people on it and my arko read being tonal more than anything (also i think it was DV who made a good point? about his reads looking like they're based on just vcs more than him thinking about the game). the only other thing is that i know that it is not the preferred one for some ppl because arko may not be with us much longer but >_>

I don't think it does. I don't view the arko wagon as being motivated to oppose mine - I think people want to kill arko because they think arko is sus or because he's a target which is easy to justify. Shea yelled at me a bit in the team discord when I said this but I don't really believe in doing this sort of thing with wagons? In particular like... I think my reads are >rand but I'm not so confident in them that I would use my other reads to read someone, outside extraordinary circumstances. And I don't think there would be an issue for scum to jump on arko even while I'm being voted.

The arko wagon is just meh to me. I get it? I'm not excited about it. I would prefer to just let that slot get replaced I guess.

[PenguinPower]

Hey Penguin, I unvoted as of 754.

Thanks! Please put it on its own line or use the unvote tags.

[PenguinPower]

Votecount 1.15

Arko (4):

Malakittens, DeasVail, xofelf, mastina

ItalianoVD (3):

Ausuka, DkKoba, Shirou

Ausuka (2):

Aisa, DrippingGoofball

DkKoba (1):

, Kowahbunga

Not Voting (3): Arko, Ydrasse, ItalianoVD

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2023-04-26 08:34:25)

Mod Notes

• Kowahbunga v/la through 4/24
  
• Arko is being replaced

[xofelf]

Hey Penguin, I unvoted as of 754.

Thanks! Please put it on its own line or use the unvote tags.

Will do in the future <3

[DkKoba]

perfect time to counterwagon italiano so arko slot could potentially self clear!

[Aisa]

They don't explicitly appeal to their meta anywhere I don't think
I mean that in general you'd aim to at least reproduce your town meta as scum, and if you happened to be a bit indecisive or slow to form reads you might... lean into that a bit

Sorry but i'm still not really getting this. What is your read on arko exactly? It kind of looked like you wrote a post that would defend him and the last line felt a bit, uh, tacked-on; is the explanation for arko not posting anything that anyone would townread and about to get replaced really a purposeful attempt to replicate his town meta in your eyes?

At first I thought the same thing you’re saying here: Arko sounds demotivated like in his previous town games. Why would he try to replicate this as scum? If he were more motivated he could… literally do anything else. Make up a read. And if he isn’t motivated, why didn’t he get replaced earlier? What are the odds his motivation level as scum exactly matches his motivation level as town?

But then I thought… what

if

his motivation level is similar as scum? What if he wants to play but feels intimidated by the red role PM? That made me second guess myself

I was pretty confused last night but tbh writing this out right now I feel like I’m stretching a little on the possibility of Arko!scum

But townreading Arko has all sorts of implications and I can’t townread Arko without comparing with the other two wagons. I can’t do this rn so I will do it tonight

[PenguinPower]

Freedom replaces Arko.

[PenguinPower]

Prodding DrippingGoofball.

[Ydrasse]

VOTE: italianovd
yeah after last page i feel like italiano literally isn’t reading the thread and is just looking for stuff to talk about that makes him look solvey