large normal 243: lindOVER

[Flavor Leaf]

damn, ISO dived Venmar.

Idk, I like them. Do your thing, though.

What's the case on Venmar specifically?

[Save The Dragons]

i dunno i just want to hunt off wagon

[Gimli]

yeah IDK, maybe I'm wrong on venmar. I felt kawa was playing more to his scum meta, and I had a hard time reading venmar's posts cause it looked like a lot of filler/commentary

I have to go out but I'm back tomorrow and I'll try reading this better I guess

[Andante]

what is defeatist?

[Andante]

VOTE: Eira

[Flavor Leaf]

what is defeatist?

'o woe is me im town and everyone wants to kill me, might as well sacrifice myself'

[Andante]

what is defeatist?

'o woe is me im town and everyone wants to kill me, might as well sacrifice myself'

oh yeah, kept typing out a self vote lol it’s just annoying how it’s just constant “oh you’re caught scum!!!” like, I’m not scum… and this is just reaching a point it’s annoying me IRL

and like, Hu putting me as low as they did, when they’ve been talking to me like I’m town seems odd to me, but one yall was like “see she’s pushing everyone!!” so what, I’m supposed to do nothjng and prod dodge, then I’m town???

[Flavor Leaf]

what is defeatist?

'o woe is me im town and everyone wants to kill me, might as well sacrifice myself'

oh yeah, kept typing out a self vote lol it’s just annoying how it’s just constant “oh you’re caught scum!!!” like, I’m not scum… and this is just reaching a point it’s annoying me IRL

and like, Hu putting me as low as they did, when they’ve been talking to me like I’m town seems odd to me, but one yall was like “see she’s pushing everyone!!” so what, I’m supposed to do nothjng and prod dodge, then I’m town???

why is one vote, one person saying this to you annoying you?

[Andante]

cause there’s literally 3 of yall right now, and gimli looks to be positioning to join you on me again, that’s 4, and you made people who TRed me yesterday vote me…

also like where’s GIF? all he did d1 was push me, now he’s silent??

[Venmar]

i dunno i just want to hunt off wagon

You guys can literally timestamp the end of D1 to my work schedule (seem my sig) to see that Kitty got run up during me being at work, I came home to a flip. Don't know if I would've joined the wagon anyway.

Hu tao is the push for me but maybe I'll have to give FL's post a closer read to see what's going on with Andante, my eyes mostly glazed over the few new pages.

Tbh I'm pretty sure

@Gimli

ignored my #2788 and I'd like a response. Feels like I'm getting run up for being busy or for "vibes", idk, which on the part of Gimli feels like misdirected townie based on the vibes I get from their posts but in the case of people like Hu, Andante, etc, it just feels jumping on the low fruit rather than trying to actually gamesolve, or at least it feels that way to me until I understand what the "case" against me is.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli going off vibes makes a lot of sense for a TownGimli case, though.

Weakness of that playstyle is people who can manipulate emotion well can get through it.

[Flavor Leaf]

I get hard pocketed too

[schadd_]

Spoiler:

vote count 2.3 !

Venmar (3):

NJAC, Gimli, Save The Dragons

Eiralox (2):

MalcolmTucker, Andante

Hu Tao (2):

Venmar, Bub Bidderskins

Enchant (1):

Greeting

curiouskarmadog (1):

Enchant

Andante (1):

Flavor Leaf

not voting (6):

Kowahbunga, GuyInFreezer, Skygazer, Eiralox, Hu Tao, curiouskarmadog

with 16 alive, it takes 9 to compost someone. day 2 ends in (expired on 2023-04-22 23:54:03)

moderateur notes

• GuyInFreezer is V/LA until friday. Greeting is VLA until monday. Save The Dragons is VLA until monday
  

• @schadd_ is it time to prod or look for a replacement for eiralox?

  i prodded them yesterday. i replace 24 hours after a prod is not responded to

[Venmar]

Gimli going off vibes makes a lot of sense for a TownGimli case, though.

I get general town vibes from Gimli like I said, reading by vibes and guy is fine, I tend to do it a lot but I do think there's probably other players riding Gimli's coattails in this regard

[Venmar]

I just don't really see CKD as being scum here at all right now

Any chance you'd expand on this? I've had bad vibes from CKD earlier tbh

Gave your case on Andante a bit of a read, it doesn't fully to me probably because this is the only time I've played with her and a lot of your reasoning seems to come down to meta and how you think !scumAndante tends to manipulate as scum? Many of Andante's posts are very erratic, omgusy or devoid of focus, which for me is always hard to read personally with anything more than vibes. She seems to just lash out at everyone on a whim and react strongly to the smallest pushes, but maybe this is a part of how she manipulates? Honestly my initial read on her from day start is still a tiny townlean since I just feel like a scum motivation should've overridden her playstyle a bit to not be an influence in the start of the Kitty wagon like she was.

[Venmar]

*it doesnt speak full to me...

forgot a word ^

[Venmar]

there's a weird dynamic between kowabungah/FL/curiouskarmadog right now, and I'm not sure all 3 are town

What makes you say that?

but this constant fight of saying I’m town is exhausting. can we either vote me out or establish Im town from here on out today? cause day after day of this will piss people off… especially when the 3 scum + people who know me… KNOW im town here

Don't like this post though, maybe this is what FL was referring to as "defeatist" but this does read to me as exasperated scum who is trying to regain control of their game image.

FL tbh I'm not interested in andante slot today. I think I'd have to read a lot and I'm just fine not having andante in my solve rn. it's d2 with one dead wolf, I say we kill the people not playing/lurkey slots posting scummy stuff first. I think andante should be considered way way way down the line. but I'll come back to this and read through eventually I guess.

I'd disagree and say that since we got a scum D1 and a NK on N1, we can afford to elim someone higher profile with lots of posts to get us more info from a flip, since we have the extra breathing room to do more analysis now and in the future, Flipping a lurker is low-hanging fruit tbh when I don't think we need to resort to that atm.

[Flavor Leaf]

Here's some meta reasonings, but the case, at its core, isn't meta based. I would say it's Tactics and Objectively based that is further supported with some clear cut meta from an exact situation with TownMe going after ScumThem.

viewtopic.php?p=13221408#p13221408 - andante had a 'never claiming' mindset here in there town game.

in their scum game with me previously, and this game, they acted like PR, but claimed VT in both.

Said I was setting up flips in both scum games, didn't in their town game.

Had a 'scared aaah' reaction at the end of a scum flip. They bussed in the other one, i think they bussed here.
____

Now the base of my scum read comes from the next stuff, and I'll use a town example of theirs in comparison, but really the case works without it too.

They've been minimizing and misrepping cases on them all game here. That is inherently scummy. while here they were able to completely write out and explain in detail what someone was pushing them for as town.

On top of that, my day 1 case of them puffing chest because they knew there wasn't a case on them in addition to the ^.

And their incredibly stalled wagoning proving scum really didn't want the Andante wagon to go through while the Skygazer wagon was E-3 at one point, and had it gotten another vote, quick hammer range. This is probably the strongest base reason for scum Andante. While this alone wouldn't make them scum, this in conjunction with all of the others things probably does.

The Hot and Cold Treatment Rewarding Players when they town read them, and Punishing Players when they don't. I slightly slightly slighty turned off of them thanks to Kowahbunga's case on Andante, and they immediately flipped on me. After I started casing them, they immediately retracted.

There are tons and tons of different emotional tactics being used by Andante this game, such as the defeatist technique, the hyper post, and the all over the place. Sure, you can cut this back as personality, but there is no denying that these are both survivalistic tactics. Again, this is in conjunction with other things in the game, not this one singular thing.
_______

Now let's check out Kowabungha's case.

Kowabungha's Case is a strong singular point for them being scum in the fact that they are being incredibly inconsistent with their reads, and this implies that they are going with the flow and adapting when they need to. The biggest thing here is when Kowa says 'Why are you willing to vote out someone who is being scum read by your biggest scum read?" This might not be anything major at first glance, but when you combine this with Andante repeatedly saying this game they don't want to elim townies, it shows Andante as being incredibly performative here.

Kowa made an amazing reasoning pointing out Gimli telling Andante to come back to Kitty wagon after Andante tried one last ditch effort to get the momentum to move from Kitty to Malcolm.

Kowa also pointed out that Andante made a list of people they would be okay eliminating, and they put a large list with Kitty on it. We went Kitty. They couldn't back out of it because they already put them in the pool.

Kowa says they scum read Andante in a previous game and let them get away. This means both Kowa and Myself have previous experience with ScumAndante, and scum read them correctly at points.


And what is Andante's immediate response to this?

"The hell is this case?" An immediate shut down to a strong case. Even if Andante were town, this made sense as a case, it could have just been wrong. But instead it got shut down and pushed out with a "I explained Malcolm read yesterday". I didn't double check, but yeah.

They then go on and hard aggressively push me for 'setting up flips on them' when I talk about how I liked Kowabungha's case, and how it brought Andante down slightly. This lead me to wanting to deep dive because of the big overreaction. I was still lean town on Andante at that point.

Andante used the push on me to distract from Kowabungha's case and drown it out, causing it to be hidden.

Did anyone besides Gimli and I see the Kowabungha case? did anyone read Kowabungha's case?

Check the case out. It's a really good case imo.

But yeah, long story short, one of these things happening don't make Andante scum. All of these things together makes her scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

I should have formatted that better. I will later, but first section is the meta sprinkles. 2nd section is the base. 3rd section is Kowabungha's case

[Venmar]

Vote: Andante

[Flavor Leaf]

Another thing is Andante has been pushing Kowabungah as scum for a while, and according to Kowa in their case post, they've been seeing Andante as scum for a while. They were also the first one on that vote count with Andante having a large wagon.

I will say, I wasn't super aware of Kowabungah's read on Andante being strong. Scum are more aware of how players are feeling about them. This isn't a super strong reasoning, but I think there's some merit to Andante being threatened by Kowabungah, so they've been pushing them and yelling at them being scum for a long time now to drown them out.

[Flavor Leaf]

Honestly, Kowabungha brought the gallons of Ice Cream, they made it homemade, and it's delicious. I just have the toppings, the bowl, and will be serving you all your Sundaes, but I already had that stuff.

Andante flips scum, Kowabungha caught them nicely.

[Flavor Leaf]

And I'll take the heat if they flip town.

[Venmar]

Also I took a quick dive into Kitty's ISO, and it's making me feel better about Enchant, who Kitty kept blindly pushing which to me just reads as scum trying to charge down a townie, and Kitty's focus on Skygazer in #1949 when prompted to join a large wagon also helps support FL's theory that scum were trying to push a wagon that wasn't Andante. Both interactions make me feel better about Sky and Enchant as being a bit more likely to be town than scun. Kitty's ISO also puts some water on my Gimli TR though since Kitty was soft defending Cephrir multiple times in posts like #1031 and #1393 and it feels bit like buddying a bit to me, but it's not enough to flip my read for now. It mostly makes me think that maybe my push suspicions on Ceph in D1 might've been correct but Gimli has been ostensibly way more townie than Cephrir so it's a balance scale for me now...

[curiouskarmadog]

Here is the problem with me swallowing Adante as scum. FL tell me why I am wrong.

at..

not official

Andante (7): Kowahbunga, Venmar, Bub Bidderskins, Flavor Leaf, Skygazer, Gimli, NJAC
Skygazer (5): Save The Dragons, NJAC, Greeting, Hu Tao, KT

also the Andante wagon just looks scummier.

fine..

Vote Skygazer

my vote on Bub isnt helping.

My vote put it at 7v6

in 1967, Andante voted Eira....she could have voted Sky, putting it at 7v7

would scum Andante in your meta do that? Also given the KT wagon (just reviewed again), hard for me to see ScumAndante bussing a partner in that way.

--- just something I want to note for myself since I went back to look at the above---
1 minute after 1967, Gimli also followed Andante to the Eria vote.

then 2 pages of fluff between adante and gimli.

gimli unvote 2012

at one point Gimli votes greeting.

in 2060, FL says Sky obv town, andante obv counter

in 2063, Gimli votes sky.

Gimli vote Adante again..

by 2107, wagon AvS - 7v5

AGAIN Andante, votes someone else (FL) that isnt Sky (her counterwagon)

AGAIN gimli changes vote to Sky (turns it back to 6v6)

in 2140-2142, Gimli and Andante vote greeting together. ..then there is a general greeting push. Mason claim.

then the kitty wagon.
FL starts with 2309, Gimli 2310, Andante 2311, NJAC 2312, 2317 Andante jumps KT wagon for Malcom (that being said, I can see town reasoning here) 2333 Andante back on KT, 2335 STD votes, 2345 I vote KT, 2348 Bub, 2368 Hu, then Kowah for the hammer.