Family Guy Mafia - Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

This includes the pool of people like TM, TI and CC. One of these should be the lynch today, 100%.

I don't like this. This is the control I was talking about, and it's not a good kind of control. This makes me feel a scum vibe, especially since I don't get a strong feeling from any of those three aside from being non contributing, and it also ignores others that have just as much (or even more) case on them, like Xtoxm, Puta, Pacman, kloud, lately BlakAdder, and, honestly, Wolf's infrequent snippets.

Well we had TI trying to rush the day, CC is scummy for the reasons that PP already mentioned, TM for being probably the most anti-town out of the players in the game action wise. It took us putting him at L-3 before we got a LoS even.

I dont see how you have Pacman and Kloud at scum at all really. The rest I can see where suspicions come from but those two just confuse me more then anything else.

In the end though I would rather just kill off someone who isnt and wont be helping today over someone who is around the same scummy level, but at least will be useful later in the game. We will get more information from the lynch today, as well as whatever kills we have at night. Once we have alignments I think the players in your second list deserve more of a readthrough.

Also, I still dont get how "controlling" is a scumtell to you. Go look at just about any game I have played, and I have the exact same style. Part of this game is getting people to listen to what you have to say, and being in a position where what you say gets recognized and responded to easier is something that I always try to have happen.

[Zilla]

Coming off as controlling is scummy simply because it's the best position to be in when you are scum. If you're calling the shots, town's going to lynch itself stupid while you slide by. Town doesn't win through control, scum wins through control, town wins from awareness and inquisition. Most of your posts seem engineered with a "Can't touch this" natuire, wherein your accusations are never bold and brash but small and measured, thus nobody can effectively build a case against you, again, very town-proof. Lacking a vig, being in that position makes you untouchable, and we have no reason to believe that you are in fact untouchable. I think we've seen arguements on just about every player aside from you.

In the end though I would rather just kill off someone who isnt and wont be helping today over someone who is around the same scummy level, but at least will be useful later in the game. We will get more information from the lynch today, as well as whatever kills we have at night. Once we have alignments I think the players in your second list deserve more of a readthrough.

I have to say this can be taken as a push to "stick with the patsies we have now and leave my scumbuddies alone." The thing that bothers me is that it seems to encourage unthinking rather than analysis; "Oh come on, let's get complacent with what we've got instead of looking at anyone else. They're not being very pro-town, so lynching them is okay, right?" I don't see what determines your distinction of who "isn't and won't be helping today" compared to "around the same scummy level but will be useful later." What? I'd rather lynch scum aligned than town aligned any day, regardless of how much contribution they give.

I dont see how you have Pacman and Kloud at scum at all really. The rest I can see where suspicions come from but those two just confuse me more then anything else.

Both have gone missing, and Pacman hasn't really contributed much. Kloud did in the outset, then drifted off into obscurity. His was a name I didn't even recognize right away from looking at the player list.

I still think the wagon shot up really quickly on TM. I still think Charter's analysis that says that town wagons are the ones that move fast is an UBER SCUM TELL. I still think Charter's shoddy defenses, aggressive nature, and poor logic are uber scum tells.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yeah, Llama is reminding me of his scum play in Double Day Mafia, actually. I'll see if I can find the game.

[TonyMontana]

It also distracts from what we need to be talking about which is TM, and why his wagon took off when the wagon against TI which was made for primarily the same reasons went nowhere.

Because I was an easy target, and scum and lazy townies jumped on alike?
Are you perhaps hinting to that TI might be less apt to scum wagons cause he's scum?
And are you just raising questions to seem like you're not supporting my lynch, while still having a vote on me?

[populartajo]

I am back. Let me catch up.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, I still don't like the TM wagon, and I think it could be scum-driven.

[Porochaz]

It also distracts from what we need to be talking about which is TM, and why his wagon took off when the wagon against TI which was made for primarily the same reasons went nowhere.

Because I was an easy target, and scum and lazy townies jumped on alike?
Are you perhaps hinting to that TI might be less apt to scum wagons cause he's scum?
And are you just raising questions to seem like you're not supporting my lynch, while still having a vote on me?

The reason why Im on the TM wagon and not the TI wagon was because TM is scummy, TI was mainly lurking I didnt feel the case on him was warranted.

[farside22]

Spolium replaces kloud effective now.

[Spolium]

/confirm

I'll need a bit of time to catch up, but here's a quick hello in the meantime.

[farside22]

Also I'm giving pacman till Friday afternoon to post at least once. If he fails to post I will replace him.

[LlamaFluff]

It also distracts from what we need to be talking about which is TM, and why his wagon took off when the wagon against TI which was made for primarily the same reasons went nowhere.

And are you just raising questions to seem like you're not supporting my lynch, while still having a vote on me?

I am partially in the playstyle of "lynch vanilla claims" except for certain situations like family guy mini where the vanilla claim was on a weak case and the situation made it pretty obviously genuine. This is why I got pretty pissed when you claimed vanilla as early as you did.

Lets say we wagon TI. Best case scenario, we lynch scum. Lets look at other things though, lets say TI is town. We now have a vanilla living through the night, PR pool shrinks.

I saw the wagon build fast when compared to the TI, which is why I commented on it. You claiming though just threw me off and really destroyed a lot of options in my mind about exploring why this occured.

@Zilla - Kloud got replaced, is he still suspicious?

@KoC - My meta is fairly constant with a few exceptions that I am working on fixing. If you want I can link you to some town games of mine. The fact that 2/3 of my scum games have been linked already here just is wierd.

[TonyMontana]

Well, waiting to claim would've surely sealed my coffin. I thought I'd give the town time to re consider.

[elvis_knits]

I'm again getting the bad vibes from Llama, the "acting town" feeling.

I find this similar to the "too townie" fallacy. I've personally never seen scum who are that great that they're just too townish, and you have to lynch them for being un-scummy. When you take an active role in the town it just increases the chance you screw up sooner or later. So I have no problem with llama being vocal, and I think you objection to him "controlling" the town is not really an issue. I don't think he's controlling the town. He's stating his opinions forcefully, and that's a good thing. If he's town it's good, and if he's scum it's good because it increases our chances of catching him.

I don't think you've really said you find llama "too townie" but your arguments seem similar to me. Unless you can point to something scummy he's said or done that is scummy, I find your pursuit of him scummy. Scum don't want a vocal townie running the show and building a concensus. They want to divide and manipulate and flip our standards for judging scum (so that we lynch people for being too townie and dismiss obv scum as being too obvious to be scum).

[RestFermata]

I think what Zilla means by "acting town" is not that Llama is "too town", but that his townieness is an act. Anyway I disagree. For now I'm going to call Llama legit. He acted similarly in the last Family Guy game. I still think that TM is a good choice. Going to stand by my vote. Nothing's changed other than the (premature) claim.

[elvis_knits]

But how do you know when someone is

acting

town as opposed to

being

town? The argument has the same problems for me that "too townie" does.

Unless you can show where you a person is not being genuine in their behavior/feelings, then the whole argument is just wrong.

[Porochaz]

Not the same but the same problems arise the case of Llama acting townie to me is not a good case to me.

[Zilla]

^ all those concerns outline the danger, and from what I can tell, his scum meta supports that.

I can count the number of times I've been lynched on one hand, compared to approximately 40+ games I've been in, and that's because I do play pro-town no matter what alignment I am. My scum win ratio is very high. In fact, there was only ONE case where I wasn't lynched from a PO claim (there was also one case where I was lynched a broken PO claim, and one where I actually refuted a PO claim long enough to live another night, and the only thing that sealed my fate was the PO dying).

I hear claims that Llama is stating opinions forcefully, but he isn't. He's asking questions and implying things, but never being bold and direct about his accusations. The ones that he actually makes, and I mean the ones he actually asserts rather than implying, are meager. A lot of his posts seem to be fill-in-the-blank, which makes him unaccountable, and further makes him seem smart and right because you're projecting your own conclusions onto him.

Lets say we wagon TI. Best case scenario, we lynch scum. Lets look at other things though, lets say TI is town. We now have a vanilla living through the night, PR pool shrinks.

This argument is constructed exactly how I construct mine when I play scum, namely "look at the scenarios, now look how it's logical to lynch this guy." The problem I have is not only does it assume all facts are known, it proposes that the only alternative to lynching Tony is The Internet.

Llama's also bugging me over this:

I saw the wagon build fast when compared to the TI, which is why I commented on it. You claiming though just threw me off and really destroyed a lot of options in my mind about exploring why this occured.

"Hey, I was going to analyze those guys that rushed the vote on Tony, but then you claimed and screwed it up." So you don't have a few names, that's nothing to cry about, I'd like to see an analysis anyway. Also the first part, "Look, I saw the buildup and commented on it! Look at that! See, I'm town because I commented on the speed of the wagon, nevermind that I'm one of the people who pushed and contributed to the wagon."

I find it interesting that the votes that are on Tony are some of the people we considered suspect as well, such as Coheed&Cambria, Puta, Porochaz... Basically ones that were accused of being scummy regardless of lurking.

[charter]

Llama seems town to me. Not quite on Xtoxm's level, but close.

[LlamaFluff]

A lot of his posts seem to be fill-in-the-blank, which makes him unaccountable, and further makes him seem smart and right because you're projecting your own conclusions onto him.

Quite a bit of what I try to accomplish is keeping other players accountable for what they are doing, and stopping them from doing things that are going to hurt the town. I know a lot of it is general knowlegde and personal play opinion, but it is a help.

Ignoring the fact that I have pushed more in the form of cases though then most other people though is not something I am going to let you do. So far I feel that I have accomplished more then most of the other players in the game in the area of pushing for lynches of who I think is scummy.

I find it interesting that the votes that are on Tony are some of the people we considered suspect as well, such as Coheed&Cambria, Puta, Porochaz... Basically ones that were accused of being scummy regardless of lurking.

Well CC is lurking... PP to an extent but not as much. I dont really understand why you are buying into the Poro case at all, if anything it makes kmd scummier for trying to push that type of "game breaking" logic that relies on scum being honest in a mafia game. What I said about the TM wagon is true though, and I am pissed at him for claiming when he did, since it hurts the town if he is scum.

[TonyMontana]

I am pissed at him for claiming when he did, since it hurts the town if he is scum.

If I was scum, I'd be happy to have both pissed you off and to have hurt the town.
Seriously tho, my mind hurts trying to make sense of that statement.

[LlamaFluff]

Well my theory on claims is "The closer it is to deadline, the higher the chance that a vanilla town claim is a true claim"

This is true given that
- Town is assured to not hit power
- There is no way a vanilla claim will derail a wagon
- Scum knows a vanilla has a lower chance of saving them so wont claim it
- Town wont fakeclaim
- Vanilla claims get lynched

Now you did not need to claim when you did, a week from deadline we dont need a claim from you when you are at L-3. If you had a PR, then maybe its an acceptable time to claim, however this is already proven false. You had to know that the claim would not save you, so I dont get why you would of outed yourself with a vanilla claim when you did.

So you outed a role that is not a threat to scum, which hurts the town by decreasing the PR pool, at a time that it was not needed, when defending or making a case would of likely cleaned up a few of the votes.

What is killing me is I think that this is a real claim, but I dont want to turn this into family guy mini that had five claims D1 due to people wagoning power and other incedents. So I am thinking about this quite a bit right now.

[farside22]

wolf is leaving MS and I wish him the best and hope to see him again one day. I have a replacement.
Replacing wolf is Nitro Styles.
Thank you.

[Hybris]

Now you did not need to claim when you did, a week from deadline we dont need a claim from you when you are at L-3.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he at L-1 when he claimed?

Anyway, as for the whole Llama/Zilla debate going on right now, I'll say that Llama could be forceful as scum, but being forceful alone is not enough to support a lynch. You've been forceful too Zilla, though not saying as much. If/when he says something scummy or makes a really bad argument, then you can point it out and make a case. I don't think you're being scummy per say for arguing this, but I'm disagreeing on the premise of it.

[TonyMontana]

Well my theory on claims is "The closer it is to deadline, the higher the chance that a vanilla town claim is a true claim"

Well my theory on it, any closer to deadline and there would have been zero chance of reversal. Would you refute that a vanilla claim a day before deadline would be followed by anything but a hammer?
I just wanted to give the town a chance to lynch scum instead of a townie. Doesn't seem like the town wanna take that chance anyway, so fine. I've served a purpose, hopefully the town will weed out scum from the information.

[LlamaFluff]

Well my theory on claims is "The closer it is to deadline, the higher the chance that a vanilla town claim is a true claim"

Well my theory on it, any closer to deadline and there would have been zero chance of reversal. Would you refute that a vanilla claim a day before deadline would be followed by anything but a hammer?

Well you could see the early stages of apprehension in my 776 where I brought up the difference between wagons. Also you claimed about a week untill deadline, that was plenty of time for something else to happen. I agree that you would of been hammered a day before deadline with a vanilla claim, hence my theory as scum know a vanilla claim get them killed.

I just am still a little pissed with the timing of that claim, especially after some thinking I dont doubt it.

unvote

There is much more thinking to be done about this wagon.

@All TM voters - Why TM over TI?