Hollow Knight Mafia [game over]

[Gimli]

Ive got a bunch of classes tonight but I can respond to your dive tomorrow morning

[Datisi]

Prodding fireisredsir.

[furtiveglance]

Yk what, if we lose we lose

VOTE: Klick

[fireisredsir]

im not scum

[furtiveglance]

Ok

You can either tie or hammer then

[fireisredsir]

im not voting at least until klick is back

[Datisi]

VOTE COUNT 9.04

WITH 4 VOTES IN PLAY, IT TAKES 3 TO MAKE A DECISION. DAY 9 ENDS IN (expired on 2023-03-24 22:15:00).

execution

KLICK [2]:

Gimli, furtiveglance

GIMLI [1]:

Klick

NOT VOTING [1]:

fireisredsir

mod notes

All vote counters have been borked by the newest update, so please let me know if there are mistakes in the VC.
This is a mod note.

[Klick]

I came on prepared to argue for furtive!town and Gimli!scum but uh I think I'm starting to see furtive!Traitor as a reasonable solve.

The main block for that in my head at the moment is how the last two game days have played out. I think furtive has a rather not-scummy last couple of days, and I think Gimli has a rather scummy D9.

Right now I think furtive's early play looks particularly not like his town game. He isn't pushing hard, he isn't displaying confidence, he doesn't have the misguided WIM that exists in almost all of his town games. It doesn't quite look like his scum game either, but that can be explained by being a Traitor. He has *reads* but I'm not convinced he cares about them.

I really struggle to see why furtive's motivation is so low in the last couple of days though if he's scum. He looks a LOT like what I'd expect from demotivated town.

Gimli I have a lot of trouble coming to anything that I feel is conclusive one way or the other. A lot of my confidence in Gimli!scum stemmed from feeling confident that furtive made no sense as scum. I suppose there's a simple argument that just like I don't have to go to the lengths I've gone if I'm scum here to pull off a win, Gimli similarly doesn't have to try nearly as hard as he has if he wants a win here - he could have literally just pushed for no-lim->no-lim, killed fire, and won. He's done way more than that. I think ultimately I believe Gimli is *capable* of playing at the level he has played here if he's scum. But I don't know if he decides it's necessary or the path he chooses to take. He sees as clearly as I do that furtive is projecting zero intention of changing his mind.

Today's push on me feels really freaking weird from Gimli!town though. Like paranoia is possible, but there are a lot of things that Gimli is deliberately choosing not to consider to come to the conclusion that I'm scum in this position. I felt like the cleanest explanation for this was that Gimli was scum pushing it to solidify things with furtive, but I can see paranoia as an explanation.

I'm feeling even less confident than when I started rereading and now I've got to go again. Maybe I'll have more time later tonight.

[Klick]

If there's anything you want from me fire I'm happy to engage with questions or otherwise discuss ideas. I think we're at a point where you have more conviction in your beliefs on this game than I do. I think Gimli!scum is still an idea worth exploring, but at this point I don't know that I have the energy to play out that world.

If you have nothing else you really want to discuss then I'll probably sheep you and call it a day

[Gimli]

Hey I'm waiting for my ride and I have some time to engage with this

[Gimli]

I came on prepared to argue for furtive!town and Gimli!scum but uh I think I'm starting to see furtive!Traitor as a reasonable solve.

I'm interested to know when traitor!furtive started to make sense to you again because you spent the entirety of d9 pretty much unwilling to engage with the arguments pointing in that direction. You know I think you were trying to pocket furtive with it, but partially it's because the arguments are compelling so you waving it off and acting like you don't understand or whatever didn't feel right

[Gimli]

The main block for that in my head at the moment is how the last two game days have played out. I think furtive has a rather not-scummy last couple of days, and I think Gimli has a rather scummy D9.

Your scumread on me still amounts to OMGUSing, it all you have to call me scum for is that I'm scumreading you despite all the evidence you feel exists that I should be townreading you for. If you're town you have no idea how much your d9 open message looks like something a scum thinks is a good idea, and how much parts of your d8 entertaining my furtive scumcase and vote/unvote feels manipulative and informed.

[Gimli]

Right now this thing you're doing I think makes perfect sense as scum, just giving it up to whatever fireisred prefers so you can flip a coin to win, keeping your options open just like the d9 message, just like your d8 as well

[Gimli]

I know this is really annoying and I'm sorry if you're town but goddammit klick I'm expecting at least a shred of town!klick that I learned to admire. I know you're busy... And I hate just giving it up to BoP but you're here and you're telling fireisred you're gonna sheep whatever after we spent a whole fucking month playing this

[Gimli]

I just don't buy that as well

[Klick]

Coinflips don't exist people do things for reasons

I largely ignored the furtive!Traitor reasoning because I thought it was wrong and furtive was acting like town
I started my readthrough by going through furtive's early play mostly with the intent of showing that it matched his town meta like I thought it did... only to find that that wasn't really true when I actually looked through furtive town games for comparison

The 'Klick was trying to pocket furtive' thing is still really poor as a theory
I think you have a really warped vision of how I'd choose to play as scum

When you're not confident it's better to follow someone who is town and is confident. This is something I believe and can verify that I believe.

[Klick]

When solving a game it's important to have a valid perception of how confident you actually are in your solve
Often the answer for me is 'rather confident'

Right now the answer is 'not nearly as confident as I'd like to be'
In which case it is correct to trust others

[Gimli]

Coinflips don't exist people do things for reasons

I largely ignored the furtive!Traitor reasoning because I thought it was wrong and furtive was acting like town
I started my readthrough by going through furtive's early play mostly with the intent of showing that it matched his town meta like I thought it did... only to find that that wasn't really true when I actually looked through furtive town games for comparison

The 'Klick was trying to pocket furtive' thing is still really poor as a theory
I think you have a really warped vision of how I'd choose to play as scum

When you're not confident it's better to follow someone who is town and is confident. This is something I believe and can verify that I believe.

so let me go through this paragraph per paragraph:

I mean you're choosing to coinflip with whatever fireisred prefers, instead of picking a likely target. I don't mean his choice will be a coinflip, but that you will coinflip at end of gameday with whatever fireisred prefers. I'll get to more of that in a bit.

you ignored 'tis I radiance'. you ignored the fact that furtive didn't play any parts of this game, neither early game nor late game, like his town self. you ignored how furtive's jailkeep claim was precipitated, framed town, and had no reason to be other than townlocking furtive. you did it all because his early game looked like his town meta... except that now you say it wasn't his town meta.

of course, if you're scum and you tried pocketing furtive, it didn't work. but you chose to ignore too much deliberately.

and I don't think fireisred is confident at all so your last paragraph doesn't work

[Gimli]

what I feel is that you're now giving a thought to furtive traitor ideas because he is voting you

but anyway I'm off to bed

[Klick]

I am getting the impression that fireisredsir reads you as town with higher confidence than I'm currently feeling about either you or furtive
I think 'coinflip' is a silly description of this regardless because it's meant to imply randomness when there's no randomness involved

If you believe all of those things about furtive here I think it's hypocritical of you to use them as an argument against me and give them all up because I'm 'ignoring' those things
'Ignore' needs to have a consistent definition when you use it in this context; I didn't really acknowledge those things about furtive to my memory but it's not like I just haven't thought about them at all, just like you have thought about them but chosen to believe they don't make furtive scum; I just thought there was stronger evidence that furtive was town, and diving deeper into furtive's meta and considering a furtive!Traitor world tonight made me think otherwise

[Klick]

what I feel is that you're now giving a thought to furtive traitor ideas because he is voting you

but anyway I'm off to bed

Yes, as opposed to all the other times I decided not to go after furtive because he was projecting any willingness to consider I wasn't scum

[Gimli]

I think 'coinflip' is a silly description of this regardless because it's meant to imply randomness when there's no randomness involved

if it goes to EOD with paired wagons, it'll be a literal coinflip.

re: all the things I said about furtive, its not a matter of believing in them, a lot of them are just matters of fact: he did things that look a lot like signaling, his jailkeeper claim was precipitated, etc. you know all about these things cause I pointed at them to you on d8. when you say you thought of them but chose to ignore them cause you thought he was town, that doesn't mesh well with this:

Which Hollow Knight characters do people think are mafia

Are we even allowed to talk about it

oh. I think Dung, Sly and Traitor Lord sound pretty sus anyway

The Traitor Lord is a main boss in Hollow Knight. He blocks the path to the White Lady in the Queen's Gardens.

I don't see what you're seeing

cause this isn't ignoring, this is either not understanding it or pretending that you don't understand it.

in fact you spent some parts of this gameday trying to construe me as a traitor that gets a vig when all the other scum died and whatever and I acknowledged that that could be mechanically possible, but a literal traitor literal lord who literally blocks paths is too much, it goes over your head somehow? traitor jailkeeper was a setup mistake even!

[Klick]

I didn't follow what fire was trying to say in 6195 because I have trouble generally understanding people's arguments when those arguments consist of quotes, emojis, and no further context
This is part of why I often ignore the general thread narrative in games, because I need arguments to be explained to me clearly and directly and it's very rare on this site for people to explain something clearly and directly enough for me to follow and also present an argument worth engaging with

I hadn't considered the thing that fire was apparently implying as a potential argument because I thought it had been previously stated in the OP that roles were unrelated to flavor and that matched with the scum flip and therefore 'Traitor Lord being a Traitor' isn't something that I thought made sense as a conclusion, especially without any actual argument being made to express that

Literally every boss in Hollow Knight 'blocks paths' it's far from exclusive to Traitor Lord

[Gimli]

what do you think of furtive squeezing in a reason to post something that contained the word traitor, though?

[Gimli]

I haven't played the game so I didn't know all bosses blocked paths