Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[LlamaFluff]

Still rereading, apart from Apoc, EG (elmo now?) and Ceph look a little off. I still think that Atlas is probably town.

[Corvuus]

I simply offered an alternate viewpoint. I don't see why this is arousing this much angst and suspicion. If we all jumped on someone when they offered an alternate view, we'd never get past day 1. I just passed a comment that may or may not have shown others that there isn't a rigid set of scumtells. I thought that was part of the game, to suggest things.

Others can say what they think but let me put it this way.

1st, you say that you think SC is scum.

2nd, SC claims (I don't 100% believe his claim but whatever, we will find out soon).

3rd, you say that you think SC fake-claimed... but now you don't think he is scum.

If you think he is scum before he claimed doc, how does him claiming doc make him not seem scummy now? That is what I don't get.

If you are just stating it as a "viewpoint" then why don't you think SC is scum anymore? If it was just you stating a 'viewpoint' difference (which I don't think it is since it is an obvious viewpoint) then why are you mentioning a 'set of scumtells'.

The only thing I know that people have said "rigidly" is that they won't lynch a claimed doc who isn't counterclaimed and I agree with that. It doesn't mean we all believe SC, it just means we won't necessarily lynch him today (but he will die eventually either by lynch or NK).

Corv

[Ythill]

I simply offered an alternate viewpoint. I don't see why this is arousing this much angst and suspicion. If we all jumped on someone when they offered an alternate view, we'd never get past day 1.

Fail. Strawman. You are not being attacked for voicing an alternate viewpoint. You are being attacked for...

(1) Stating an explicit belief for which you have been unable to give reasoning.
(2) When questioned about that explicit belief, trying to pretend that you were just offering other possibilities.
(3) Shifting your read on a player (SC scum--->town) without any reasonable evidence.

I just passed a comment that may or may not have shown others that there isn't a rigid set of scumtells.

Fail. Misrepresentation. You stated... explicitly... that you believed SC was fake-claiming as town. Explain what made you believe that.

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game!

Fail. Instead of pointing vague fingers, you should be explaining yourself.

Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches!

Fail. Appeal to emotion. You have seriously backpedaled on an explicit statement and, until you can explain why town-Rx would have done such a thing, we are grasping at something more substantial than straws.

See, it has occured to me why a n00b scum player might make that statement about SC fake-claiming as town, but I can't imagine how a townie would be convinced of that in light of the evidence we've seen.

[Elmo]

The idea that (dumb) townies fakeclaim is not really scummy to my mind. What I missed is that he previously agreed with LlamaFluff's post on SC. What's changed, Apoth? What's your current view on SC's alignment, and why?

[Elmo]

I do think Zeppo is breathing a little much into SC coming to MM's defense.

But he's just searching for any tells that might help further the game

. He's also quite analytical of posts at times.

Why do you say that about Zeppo? I can think of a number of reason he'd be doing that as scum, and he seems scummy to me. You seem to write him off as town for no apparent reason, here. Why is that? Where has he been "quite analytical" of posts, and what does that fact tell us about him?

[StrangerCoug]

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

[Corvuus]

I don't get your posts SC.

Can you be... more clear or more sane or whatever... I just feel that none of your posts after your claim have been helpful/informative.

Corvuus

[StrangerCoug]

What exactly don't you get?

[MiteyMouse]

Wow...that was a read and a half! Apoth, I understand that you are offering an alternative view but, until SC is counter claimed, I don't think that going after a claimed role is the right way to go here.
Ceph...You mentioned that you read MOST of the walls of posts. Don't you think it's a bit Scummy not to be fully reading?
ML....you mentioned that you were for a wagon on me. Please question away. I have very little to hide and will prove to you either through my playing or my death that I'm Town.
Now my appology....I'm sorry I haven't been around as much as I would like. I'm hoping to get more time here very soon!

[Corvuus]

It just seems like you are enjoying your 'get out of jail free' card entirely too much and your statements are just... bad.

----------

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

WHAT? This is utter lose. What benefit would vanilla (or other town power) have to gain by avoiding a lynch by claiming doc? It would risk a doc counter-claim (bad for town), an auto-town lynch (aka Lynch all Liars, bad for town), and any number of consequences that would be antithetical to a townie's win condition.

FoS: Apoth

. I'm not excited to have anybody who thinks like this in a game. I'm not sure if a townie would think like this at all, though maybe that comes back to his semi-newb status. Apoth, if you're town, please don't go fake-claiming power to avoid a lynch. That's really bad mojo.

Here, you just hop on and agree with another player, but I don't think you really get what is going on and being said, or that you are even thinking about it at all just as long as it "isn't you".


-------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

Quoted for truth, and the only situation I can think of where town would fakeclaim is Kokusho's gambit, which involves neither a doc nor a doc claim.

Vote: Apothecary

Perhaps this is why Apoth got so confused. You are voting him for proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor. If so, then I have to say that is indeed lame. Proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor isn't scummy to me, it is that he has you as scum before your claim, and then all of a sudden he says you are vanilla faking a claim.

It looks like you are bandwagoning without even understanding what is going on.

------------------------------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright then. I personally believe he was just shielding himself from the pressure and decided that it was in his best interests to avoid an immediate lynch. Of course, that is also a defense for scum players, and now I see how that was a bit stupid to suggest that. I apologize, if that's what you want.

OK, but apologies don't change anything. Sorry.

what does your post here add or change to anything? I want to lynch you now just for this statement alone practically.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I have no freaking idea except that you don't know what is going on and are just posting words and trying to sound like you are keeping up.

ugh...

.....If you are doc, then you are one of the most anti-town docs I have ever seen.

I don't see you and Apoth being scumbuddies tho so the entire situation seems fairly... weird.

Corvuus

[Elmo]

I don't see you and Apoth being scumbuddies tho so the entire situation seems fairly... weird.

Why not? What's weird about it?

[Apothecary]

Okay. Thanks for explaining why I'm getting a little attention. I simply changed my mind. Perhaps I felt a little differently for him on my third post on the matter. I felt a little pity for him, because I thought he might, just might, have actually been a townie. But perhaps I was right with my first idea.

[MacavityLock]

For the record, I am no longer voting Apoth because he thought that a townie would fake-claim. I am voting him because he can't answer why he thought that.

Attempting to protect a scum-buddy comes to mind, but that would be predicated on SC-scum.

[Huntress]

Jazzmyn replaces Zeppo007

[Elmo]

Apothecary: What you thought is noted. More important, right now, is

why

you thought it. Why - as in, what

reasons

did you have - did you think he was scum? How have your reasons changed, and why?

Anything predicated on SC-scum is clearly made of win and correctness.

Hi, Jazz! You're scum, right?

[Cephrir]

Ceph...You mentioned that you read MOST of the walls of posts. Don't you think it's a bit Scummy not to be fully reading?

No.

[StrangerCoug]

Fixing Corvuus's quotes so it's nested correctly:

It just seems like you are enjoying your 'get out of jail free' card entirely too much and your statements are just... bad.

----------

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

WHAT? This is utter lose. What benefit would vanilla (or other town power) have to gain by avoiding a lynch by claiming doc? It would risk a doc counter-claim (bad for town), an auto-town lynch (aka Lynch all Liars, bad for town), and any number of consequences that would be antithetical to a townie's win condition.

FoS: Apoth

. I'm not excited to have anybody who thinks like this in a game. I'm not sure if a townie would think like this at all, though maybe that comes back to his semi-newb status. Apoth, if you're town, please don't go fake-claiming power to avoid a lynch. That's really bad mojo.

Quoted for truth, and the only situation I can think of where town would fakeclaim is Kokusho's gambit, which involves neither a doc nor a doc claim.

Vote: Apothecary

Here, you just hop on and agree with another player, but I don't think you really get what is going on and being said, or that you are even thinking about it at all just as long as it "isn't you".

MacavityLock and I both agree that it is scummy. He got a chance to respond to the post before I did, and ML had already said what I was going to. My original input here was mentioning Kokusho's Gambit. I understand that my post implies that I'm not pulling the gambit off, but it's simply because I'm not. It's mentioned because, as I said, the gambit is the only situation I could think of where a town-aligned player would fake a claim.

For those unfamiliar with it, in Kokusho's Gambit a cop gets a guilty result on a Mafia, fakeclaims tracker with a result of that Mafia targeting a dead player, and drives that player to claim. After the Mafia claims, he admits being cop with a guilty. Very effective gambit, too.

Am I a cop? No.
Did I claim tracker? No.
Does Kokusho's gambit therefore apply? No.
Can I think of anytime else town would fakeclaim? No.

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

Perhaps this is why Apoth got so confused. You are voting him for proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor. If so, then I have to say that is indeed lame. Proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor isn't scummy to me, it is that he has you as scum before your claim, and then all of a sudden he says you are vanilla faking a claim.

It looks like you are bandwagoning without even understanding what is going on.

Tell me how it's pro-town for vanilla to fake any power role let alone a doctor

AND

how someone in his right mind who's been here 6½ months with more than twenty completed games would do that as vanilla and I'll dismiss this part of Apothecary's case.

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

OK, which of the following three do you find scummiest?
A.) Suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim
B.) Rushing the game
C.) Asking about someone's role

Or, by some chance, are all of the above equally scummy to you, even if none of the above are scummy?

Alright then. I personally believe he was just shielding himself from the pressure and decided that it was in his best interests to avoid an immediate lynch. Of course, that is also a defense for scum players, and now I see how that was a bit stupid to suggest that. I apologize, if that's what you want.

OK, but apologies don't change anything. Sorry.

what does your post here add or change to anything? I want to lynch you now just for this statement alone practically.

I understand but do not buy his defense.

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I am trying to probe exactly what made Apothecary make that statement. I'm not attacking this specific post; I just want to know what he's thinking.

I have no freaking idea except that you don't know what is going on and are just posting words and trying to sound like you are keeping up.

I do indeed know what's going on, and I am reading this game.

I don't see you and Apoth being scumbuddies tho so the entire situation seems fairly... weird.

Any specific reasoning for this?

[Ythill]

@SC: First off, I'll reiterate that I don't understand why some peeps are calling you obv-scum, or why they are beating a doc-claimed horse. There have been a couple of compelling points against you but I believe you have answered them well enough.

However, I want to address your rushing-the-game accusation in full, because you keep slandering me based on it, and it is completely off the mark.

Prima facie

, your argument is wrong because I have not rushed the game at all. I voted the player I found most suspicious at the time and asked for others to support the wagon. This might have been realistically considered rushing if he had more votes but, at the time, I was the

only

person voting him. Had he been wagoned to L-2 or so, chances are I would have unvoted, even if I still found him scummy, b/c it was still too early to lynch.

The reasons I'd do what I did as town are obvious and, now that my vote is elsewhere, I'll explicitly state them for you. (1) I wanted more pressure on Atlas to see how he would react. (2) In case I was wrong about him, I was fishing for scummy vote changes. Sorry I didn't say these things before, but they would have defeated the purpose and I wasn't very concerned about the accusation of a player who was already pigeonholed for the noose.

I'd like to point out that

Atlas himself

determined what I was up to even though I was his attacker and OMGUS might have been tempting him to see my actions as more insidious than they were. So what's your excuse?

Furthermore, even if I had been rushing the lynch, I don't see it as scummy. If you were to meta me, you would find that I am not one of those players that believes more information is always better for the town. There comes a point (usually after 2-3 wagons) when the town is in danger of having too much informtaion in the thread, both because it makes rereads too long and complicated to be effective and because it risks revealing too many power-roles to the scum. The way I play, it is ideal to make sure that everyone has taken an explicit stance on a couple of wagons, find someone who reads as scummy, and end the day with a solid lynch.

In fact, now that we are 17 pages in, I feel that we should start moving in that direction. Not

hurrying

, but at least working on consensus. Of course, we need to give Jazz time to catch up and state his/her opinions first, especially since Zep had been a suspect for a few people.

[Corvuus]

Fixing Corvuus's quotes so it's nested correctly:

It just seems like you are enjoying your 'get out of jail free' card entirely too much and your statements are just... bad.

----------

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

WHAT? This is utter lose. What benefit would vanilla (or other town power) have to gain by avoiding a lynch by claiming doc? It would risk a doc counter-claim (bad for town), an auto-town lynch (aka Lynch all Liars, bad for town), and any number of consequences that would be antithetical to a townie's win condition.

FoS: Apoth

. I'm not excited to have anybody who thinks like this in a game. I'm not sure if a townie would think like this at all, though maybe that comes back to his semi-newb status. Apoth, if you're town, please don't go fake-claiming power to avoid a lynch. That's really bad mojo.

Quoted for truth, and the only situation I can think of where town would fakeclaim is Kokusho's gambit, which involves neither a doc nor a doc claim.

Vote: Apothecary

Here, you just hop on and agree with another player, but I don't think you really get what is going on and being said, or that you are even thinking about it at all just as long as it "isn't you".

MacavityLock and I both agree that it is scummy. He got a chance to respond to the post before I did, and ML had already said what I was going to. My original input here was mentioning Kokusho's Gambit. I understand that my post implies that I'm not pulling the gambit off, but it's simply because I'm not. It's mentioned because, as I said, the gambit is the only situation I could think of where a town-aligned player would fake a claim.

For those unfamiliar with it, in Kokusho's Gambit a cop gets a guilty result on a Mafia, fakeclaims tracker with a result of that Mafia targeting a dead player, and drives that player to claim. After the Mafia claims, he admits being cop with a guilty. Very effective gambit, too.

Am I a cop? No.
Did I claim tracker? No.
Does Kokusho's gambit therefore apply? No.
Can I think of anytime else town would fakeclaim? No.

This is so utter lose. Kokusho's gambit (or whatever) has nothing to do with this. You bringing it up when it doesn't relate and then knocking it down is utterly pointless and I don't count crap as contributing originality.

It also presents a false dilemma in that YOU think that a vanilla townie would never fake claim doc in order to save himself.

I say BS to that.

If you claimed Vanilla, we would almost 80% guaranteed be lynching you right now. The only way to prevent your lynch today is to claim a power role, i.e. doc, regardless of whether you are town, scum or real doc.

I could craft a sane hypothetical with a sane townie claiming doc when there was a real doc in the game and it 'working'.

The hypothetical is completely based on whether the real doc *knows* he shouldn't counterclaim, and he should know based on it being D1.

The townie fake claiming would survive an extra day but probably get NK'ed later that night since mafia would take his claim at face-value. Go town.

If it is scum fake claiming and they survived, then suspicion will come back later, and if the real doc died then they will almost certainly be gg'ed right there. It could be the scum fake claiming to also net the doc with his death, etc.

Either way, a D1 doc claim is the weakest, laziest claim but there is no reason to lynch you now since you will 100% die before the end of the game.

The fact is, I don't believe your doc claim at all, but I know you are dead, so I couldn't careless. The part that annoys me is your statements.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

Perhaps this is why Apoth got so confused. You are voting him for proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor. If so, then I have to say that is indeed lame. Proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor isn't scummy to me, it is that he has you as scum before your claim, and then all of a sudden he says you are vanilla faking a claim.

It looks like you are bandwagoning without even understanding what is going on.

Tell me how it's pro-town for vanilla to fake any power role let alone a doctor

AND

how someone in his right mind who's been here 6½ months with more than twenty completed games would do that as vanilla and I'll dismiss this part of Apothecary's case.
[/quote]

I did that above. Just in quick summary. It is D1. There is no need for a counterclaim by real doc. Whether you are town, doc or scum, you will not die this day but you will die eventually. If you were cc'ed then you would and real doc would both die and that would be fairly pointless.

If you know a townie knows this and think others know it (or can insinutate it before real doc counterclaims) then your 'get out of jail free card' doc claim is just postponing your execution which may be good for town.

-------------------------------------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

OK, which of the following three do you find scummiest?
A.) Suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim
B.) Rushing the game
C.) Asking about someone's role

Or, by some chance, are all of the above equally scummy to you, even if none of the above are scummy?
[/quote]

see, you seriously aren't even trying since your above suggestions are silly.

First of all, suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim in itself isn't scummy. How apoth said it is. I would point out that someone else other than Apoth said the equivalent that you may be vanilla fake claiming, but then again, i don't expect you to have read or seen that.

Second of all, what is your definition of rushing the game? Just because we vote and get someone near L-1, L-2 doesn't mean we *want* the day to end with quicklynch. We can just get information out of it and move on. If the vote actually ended with a lynch on the first person to get to L-1 in the very few pages, then it is suspicious and rushing. If the vote gets to L-1, L-2 and pressure, discussion, etc. and the day moves on then it is fine.

Third, you say asking about someone's role. Asking for a role without any reason at all is horrible. soft claiming, etc. is horrible. Asking you to claim at L-1 and discussing it is a null-tell to me since "everyone" does it.

So in the end, your above 3 questions are utterly fail since you present or consider them as short 'absolutes'. That is why I say you don't make sense or aren't reading/trying.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright then. I personally believe he was just shielding himself from the pressure and decided that it was in his best interests to avoid an immediate lynch. Of course, that is also a defense for scum players, and now I see how that was a bit stupid to suggest that. I apologize, if that's what you want.

OK, but apologies don't change anything. Sorry.

what does your post here add or change to anything? I want to lynch you now just for this statement alone practically.

I understand but do not buy his defense.
[/quote]

I don't understand and I do not buy yours.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I am trying to probe exactly what made Apothecary make that statement. I'm not attacking this specific post; I just want to know what he's thinking.
[/quote]

That is what you think your question is doing? getting to know what he's thinking by asking about straw men?

You have an interesting meta SC.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no freaking idea except that you don't know what is going on and are just posting words and trying to sound like you are keeping up.

I do indeed know what's going on, and I am reading this game.
[/quote]

I don't believe you. but I am content to see you die eventually. I just don't get how you can spew anti-town remarks from beginning of the game until now and say you know what is going on and am keeping up.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see you and Apoth being scumbuddies tho so the entire situation seems fairly... weird.

Any specific reasoning for this?

Yes, but you could see it if you read. So since you are reading and keeping up, go back and read.


Corv

[Ythill]

Corvus, you are taking this way too far.

We agree that we are not going to lynch SC today, right? So why are you still pursuing him with bared teeth?

You're distracting us from finding scum and settling on who we will actually lynch, and you're worsening the sig:noise of D1. I want to be clear that I don't believe this indicates your alignment. I am simply asking you to stop.

K?

[StrangerCoug]

I'll address Corvuus's most recent post when I get home. Didn't pay enough attention to my watch, and now I'm late for class.

[LlamaFluff]

I am actually going to

Vote Ythill

.

The whole Primate situation is mostly confusing, and I am just willing to more or less write it off as "willing anti-town behavior" untill we can start making some connections between people.

When you pay attention to the thought process of Ythill though, there are a few things that just dont quite fit to me.

When he joined the LoS presented was Atlas, Apoc and MM. It may partially be that I got a town read of Atlas and MM that this was uncomfortable to me, but difference of suspicions does not imply someone being scum.

Quickly Ythill launched an attack on Atlas for what seems to be key points of; slinging mud (which was later written off as possible null), buddying, theory discussion, trying to get Primate lynched on alignment instead of uselessness, using a false dellima and abandoning the wagon.

First off, I think theory discussion being put as a scum tell is just stupid. There is nothing wrong at all about discussion theory in a game, even in the early stages. Using theory to distract from a larger point is, but that did not occur. Buddying is weak at best too, town tries to hook up with town in order to get more pull in the game, or at least it is something that I always attempt to do.

Calling someone for slinging mud and then "temporarily" writing it off is something that I really dont like. If its a tell, its a tell. Bringing something up early, dismissing it, but still leaving it as an option to return to just sits bad. When you dismiss it due to not knowing his playstyle, it is fairly simple to pick up again later when needed. Things should either be called a scumtell and pushed, or just not mentioned at all. Creating things that are weak or can be used later in a case feels like padding, and a failsafe for later if its ever actually needed.

I also dont know how much you can prosecute people for about how they acted about the Primate situation. There were points when I was catching up where I would of just prefered a policy lynch type attitude over anything else. This also somewhat can be put into the "is anti-town meta scummy?". There are players who always are scummy, and are lynch bait, Primate is obviously one of them. If I knew that Primate was never going to be replaced and would continue acting like that, I would of pushed that lynch as the right one since keeping him around hurts the town.

Going through the entire Atlas WoW argument they had and continually picking out why I dont like the case is something I wont do, but basically I think the Atlas case that Ythill has been pushing is weak, and some parts like the mudslinging were designed as fodder for a case if ever needed.

What I dont like more is what happened after SC claimed.

While I will agree that Apoc had a wierd response to the claim, its more of a bad idea then a scumtell. Having a bad idea or plan does not mean a player is scum, and the fact that Apoc is getting votes for this is somewhat concerning.

Even more troubling to me though is that this all occured after I had been pushing Apoc for a while. During this time, my case was entirely ignored by Ythill, even though he did have Apoc on his LoS, and Apoc was at a higher vote number then Atlas was. If Ythill had abandoned the Atlas case then and went for the Apoc case, it would of kept a wagon of a suspect of his at the second vote getter, and closer to SC, who Ythill had at town.

Waiting for the wagon to dry up a bit before this movement was made, and saying that it occured given the lack of people wanting an Atlas wagon just doesnt fit. For the entire time he had been here, there was mroe willingness for an Apoc lynch, and less for a Atlas lynch, yet Ythill waited to move to the Apoc wagon untill after it had dried up a bit. This just doesnt make too much sense to me.

If you want one of so many lynched, and no one is biting on one wagon while people are willfully pushing the case of your second suspect, the logical thing to do is to vote your second suspect. Not to keep hanging on to your top suspect untill the second wagon dries up a bit.

[Ythill]

Calling someone for slinging mud and then "temporarily" writing it off is something that I really dont like.

Can you cite where I did this? I think you might have misinterpreted something.

I also dont know how much you can prosecute people for about how they acted about the Primate situation. There were points when I was catching up where I would of just prefered a policy lynch type attitude over anything else.

There is a difference between a policy lynch and an alignment lynch. My point was that a bunch of people were either pursuing a policy lynch or at least applying policy-based pressure and then Atlas tried to push that into an alignment-based situation. I don't understand how you don't see that as scummy.

While I will agree that Apoc had a wierd response to the claim, its more of a bad idea then a scumtell.

Don't lump me in with the crowd that thought Rx's response was a tell. What I found scummy (in addition to my earlier read) was the way he responded to pressure about that statement by changing his stance. When I saw that, I looked back at the statement and asked myself why town/scum would insincearly say what Rx said. I only came up with an answer for scum.

If you want one of so many lynched, and no one is biting on one wagon while people are willfully pushing the case of your second suspect, the logical thing to do is to vote your second suspect. Not to keep hanging on to your top suspect untill the second wagon dries up a bit.

While that may be the "thing to do" in your opinion, I'll continue to play based on my opinions, thank you very much.

What happened was the combination of two factors: (1) I came to terms with the fact that I was unlikley to get support in pressuring my lead suspect (2) my second suspect did something that pushed him further up in my suspicions. I did not base any part of my decision on the number of votes that were on Rx at any time; the fact that his wagon had "dried up" was nothing but coincidental timing.

You are looking at my actions in the scummiest light... conforming your evidence to the conclusion rather than the other way around, which makes your "case" reach more than a proper case should.

[LlamaFluff]

Calling someone for slinging mud and then "temporarily" writing it off is something that I really dont like.

Can you cite where I did this? I think you might have misinterpreted something.

Here

Atlas has been slinging lots of mud, trying to find a place where it will stick. It

could

be an aspect of his early game play and therefore null, but time will tell.

You called it null but at the same time can easily change it later

I also dont know how much you can prosecute people for about how they acted about the Primate situation. There were points when I was catching up where I would of just prefered a policy lynch type attitude over anything else.

There is a difference between a policy lynch and an alignment lynch. My point was that a bunch of people were either pursuing a policy lynch or at least applying policy-based pressure and then Atlas tried to push that into an alignment-based situation. I don't understand how you don't see that as scummy.

I think its partially an anti-town vs scummy debate. In minis I am not too willing to policy lynch someone like this, but a large game I am fine with just killing someone like Primate in the first few pages if they wont stop. If Atlas calls anti-town actions scummy, I dont care, but dont agree entirely. I just think that Atlas was trying to figure out why Primate would be doing what he did, and scum motivations do make more sense then town ones.

Will finish responding later, have to head out now

[StrangerCoug]

This is so utter lose. Kokusho's gambit (or whatever) has nothing to do with this. You bringing it up when it doesn't relate and then knocking it down is utterly pointless and I don't count crap as contributing originality.

Kokusho's gambit was presented as the only pro-town fakeclaim I could think of. Since it does not apply, of course I brought it up so I could knock it down, but it was part of my case against him.

The rest of this part of my post is on you than Apothecary, but it's more "you should have told me earlier" than scummy. Here goes:

I could only think of pro-town fakeclaiming as town pulling Kokusho's gambit.
The only way someone can think of ≠ the only way period.
Therefore, pro-town fakeclaiming ≠ town pulling Kokusho's gambit per se.
Furthermore, I was not aware of any pro-town reasons to fakeclaim other than Kokusho.

You should have specifically brought up your explanation of why it would be pro-town for town to fakeclaim doc below the moment you saw me vote Apothecary for the same.

It also presents a false dilemma in that YOU think that a vanilla townie would never fake claim doc in order to save himself.

See above.

If you claimed Vanilla, we would almost 80% guaranteed be lynching you right now. The only way to prevent your lynch today is to claim a power role, i.e. doc, regardless of whether you are town, scum or real doc.

I understand that. I also understand that town would much rather be nightkilled than lynched, but at the same time they should not be worrying about self-preservation.

I could craft a sane hypothetical with a sane townie claiming doc when there was a real doc in the game and it 'working'.

The hypothetical is completely based on whether the real doc *knows* he shouldn't counterclaim, and he should know based on it being D1.

The townie fake claiming would survive an extra day but probably get NK'ed later that night since mafia would take his claim at face-value. Go town.

If it is scum fake claiming and they survived, then suspicion will come back later, and if the real doc died then they will almost certainly be gg'ed right there. It could be the scum fake claiming to also net the doc with his death, etc.

See above.

Either way, a D1 doc claim is the weakest, laziest claim but there is no reason to lynch you now since you will 100% die before the end of the game.

What other option do I have as a doc at L-1, claiming something else? To sit there or claim vanilla is tantamount to suicide. The only other role I can think of claiming is jailkeeper, and for that to work the doctor would have to be paranoid. You rarely know your sanity if you're starting on Day 1, and even in night starts, figuring out you're paranoid takes awhile.

It is D1. There is no need for a counterclaim by real doc. Whether you are town, doc or scum, you will not die this day but you will die eventually. If you were cc'ed then you would and real doc would both die and that would be fairly pointless.

If you know a townie knows this and think others know it (or can insinutate it before real doc counterclaims) then your 'get out of jail free card' doc claim is just postponing your execution which may be good for town.

OK, point understood and case dismissed.

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

OK, which of the following three do you find scummiest?
A.) Suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim
B.) Rushing the game
C.) Asking about someone's role

Or, by some chance, are all of the above equally scummy to you, even if none of the above are scummy?
[/quote]

see, you seriously aren't even trying since your above suggestions are silly.

First of all, suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim in itself isn't scummy. How apoth said it is. I would point out that someone else other than Apoth said the equivalent that you may be vanilla fake claiming, but then again, i don't expect you to have read or seen that.[/quote]
Rather than keeping to yourself (which is scummy) hoping that I die, why don't you bring it up?

Second of all, what is your definition of rushing the game?

Asking people to mindlessly bandwagon someone.

Just because we vote and get someone near L-1, L-2 doesn't mean we *want* the day to end with quicklynch. We can just get information out of it and move on. If the vote actually ended with a lynch on the first person to get to L-1 in the very few pages, then it is suspicious and rushing. If the vote gets to L-1, L-2 and pressure, discussion, etc. and the day moves on then it is fine.

Ythill already shot down my rushing argument against him by saying he was the only vote on Atlas, but given the situations you talk about here I'm having a hard time why you don't think rushing is scummy, especially when you mention otherwise.

Third, you say asking about someone's role. Asking for a role without any reason at all is horrible. soft claiming, etc. is horrible. Asking you to claim at L-1 and discussing it is a null-tell to me since "everyone" does it.

What I was trying to get at has nothing to do with my being asked to claim. That was supposed to a reference to Zeppo007 asking about Primate's role. You imply here that his doing so is horrible, so why are you attacking it being scummy as nonsense?

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I am trying to probe exactly what made Apothecary make that statement. I'm not attacking this specific post; I just want to know what he's thinking.

That is what you think your question is doing? getting to know what he's thinking by asking about straw men?

Exactly; more specifically, if he thinks we're guilty of straw man arguments. I won't drop it at that; it's a statement I still plan on working with after he answers what I asked.