Open 99: Mayo Clinic (Game Over!) before 703

[Plum]

So basically, everything I say is utterly meaningless.

Ding! That's exactly right! You hit the nail on the head!

Seriously. You have 17 game posts. I think I can count on one hand your useful posts in which you do some actual scumhunting or point out something even vaguely important. You've made next to no strong analysis whatsoever. You don't want to detail who you think is town because you don't want to give scum info. I could deal with that if you followed it up with 'but here's who I find scummy for clear, warranted reasons X Y and Z'. The problem is that you've decided that because it's Day 1 you can take a backseat. Let me tell you that in my first game on this site the town lynched scum Day 1 and then mislynched three times in a row, so it's very possible for the town to do good work, lynch scum, and get good discussion going Day 1. Just because you feel outnumbered doesn't give you an excuse to let others do all the talking and not scumhunt. Active lurking is anti-town.

Sure, you've

voted

, but always either without a case or with a case that's based on unwarranted craplogic. You've refused to make cases or even summarize the reasons for your votes.

If you're town you're being distracting, counter-productive, unhelpful and anti-town. You're acting like part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Defend yourself and defend your vote by making/summarizing a decent case against Charter and warranting it, and also give some thoughts on other noteworthy happenings/other people you find suspicious (and why). Please. Your lack of substantial content is scummy.

[Nameless]

Nameless, your catching-up analysis post seems to leave out the biggest thing that happened while you were gone: Charter's lies. How do you feel about posts #398, #400, #403, and #476. Those posts detail the three flat out lies Charter has made. What do you think about this?

Huh. I must have started started my catch up post from #423, even though I hadn't actually commented on anything since my last post BEFORE that.

Regarding #398 to #403, Charter does contradict himself once or twice but not on anything

really

important, and he admits to the fact even when eg. his vote change could be easily justified as acting on one suspicion of GK rather than unvoting on the basis of noninclusion of his other suspicious (this should be obvious, yet the other side of the argument is mostly ignored), then taking into account the number of people who suddenly jump on his bandwagon over something that's not even deliberately malicious or directly beneficial to the scum ... Instinct, reasoning and meta experience all tell me Charter is unlikely to be mafia here.

Regarding #476, I didn't think it worth comment. Charter made one statement that was perhaps misleading from being unclear, but given Charter cleared it up in his next post you're basically stretching.

[TonyMontana]

After reading Charter's (at the time) possible last few posts I'm ... actually inclined to think he might be town (or at least, not mafia).

If it pleases the court, I'd like to file this as Exhibit A under "duboius distancing"

Sudden mind change by Wall-E? Unexplained? Attempts to distance himself from a dubious and seemingly inevitable bandwagon? Lurkerscum Tony is displeased his scumbuddy is backing down? ALL SYSTEMS CHECK.

Objections, your Honor, the questions assumes facts not in evidence.

Hmm ... I'm going to go with Tony / GK / Wall-E scumteam.

I seem to get thrown into alot of scumteams for being a poor contributor...
I'd say charter/nameless/wall-e, if we were placing bets.

Quite honestly, GK comes off way more a townsperson than charter, who seems like the best lynch for today. And if it's a case of GK vs charter, the choice is even clearer.

[Stef]

I'll give you this. If either GNK or Charter are actually scum and they avoid a lynch today i'll give them my respect for being able to derail the town like this. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea to keep your options open, but still, it would be admirable.

@OP: Meta on you tells me you are this inactive and unhelpful in all your games. Why do you join games if you don't intend on actually bringing an actual contribution? Lazy much? At least make an effort since you took on the commitment. Considering your meta, your contribution to this topic ( including lurking/flaking/inactivity ) is a null tell for me. That makes a read on you almost impossible. I don't think that is pro-town at all. That's why everything you post, unless it's more substantial and more helpful and more of an insight into your actual opinion, will get cataloged as unhelpful and meaningless.

Considering i can't actually have a read on you after 23 damn pages i will vote you if this doesn't change. It's not acceptable to contribute so little in a game. It's rude towards the mod, the players and it means not respecting the commitment you made when you joined. You might also be active lurking. You might be doing a lot of things but you aren't letting us know anything. Share some light on our mystery please.

@Tony Montana: You like ignoring questions? Why did you fail to answer http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 04#1365304? I'd like an answer please.

[GnKoichi]

Regarding #398 to #403, Charter does contradict himself once or twice but not on anything really important, and he admits to the fact even when eg. his vote change could be easily justified as acting on one suspicion of GK rather than unvoting on the basis of noninclusion of his other suspicious (this should be obvious, yet the other side of the argument is mostly ignored), then taking into account the number of people who suddenly jump on his bandwagon over something that's not even deliberately malicious or directly beneficial to the scum ... Instinct, reasoning and meta experience all tell me Charter is unlikely to be mafia here.

It's not about what Charter could have been doing. It's about what he SAID he was doing. He flat out lied about his intentions. He also keeps hiding the fact that he was caught in that lie, instead continually saying he "lied about being lazy". He did that as well, but it wasn't to hide his laziness, it was to hide BEHIND laziness to avoid backing up a bad attempt to throw us off the scum trail. Weren't you one of the people who asked him for his reasons? Why give up so easily?

People suddenly attacking Charter when I make a strong case against him does not make Charter look innocent. Even if the lurkers didn't post their reasons, they all came out of the woodwork as a part of this argument. I think their motives were clear (though I would have preferred a little help in building the case once they agreed).

Also, you complain about one side of the argument being ignored, then you say Charter was "not even deliberately malicious". Isn't that just ignoring

my

side?

Wall-E, I don't believe for one second that you and Charter are scum together at this point. You would have pulled your vote far earlier if that were true. But your voting makes no sense now. It's like voting for Nader. No lurker is going out this round unless they make a HUGE mistake. I need your help. You casting a vote for anyone but Charter is essentially casting a vote against me.

Also, Stef and Kmd, I know you had doubts about me in the past, but you've both shown an interest in seeing Charter brought down. This is the time. Please bring your votes back and we can deal with the lurkers Day 2!

[Wall-E]

Now you're being over-defensive

just do what they ask!

or don't

but don't whine about it!

zoiks, scoob

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, what are referring to?

[Stef]

Also, Stef and Kmd, I know you had doubts about me in the past, but you've both shown an interest in seeing Charter brought down. This is the time. Please bring your votes back and we can deal with the lurkers Day 2!

We have a deadline and i intend to use it. Why the rush? You must understand that there are situations where the town fights itself while scum sit back and enjoy. I will not agree to lynch anyone until we either get the inactive players posting or we reach the deadline.

[GnKoichi]

Honestly, Stef, it's a little self preservation on my end. With a new player, I could easily be L-1 soon. You may feel like waiting, but others may not, and then we miss our chance.

[Nameless]

@ Tony, it's called "giving my opinion". You should try it more often. (See also: dramatised interpretations, and yes, I wonder why that might be? in response to your other quotes.)

@ GK, you greatly overestimate the strength of your arguments. Charter has undeniably played poorly, but that's not the same thing as playing scummy. I find most of his reactions to being called out town, but, you know, interpretation. Also, agreeing with an argument isn't ignoring the other side. I don't think Charter has been deliberately malicious, but I still mention the possibility. Did ANYBODY even mention the point that technically some of Charter's contradictions weren't?

@ Wall-e, in lieu of nonsense posts, please explain why you think both Charter and GK are town. In, oh, at least a hundred words preferably.

It's not acceptable to contribute so little in a game. It's rude towards the mod, the players and it means not respecting the commitment you made when you joined.

This.

You casting a vote for anyone but Charter is essentially casting a vote against me.

See now, this is what we need more of. Meaningless dramatics, having just followed a responsive argument of reasonable length (if not correctness)!

Nay, let us not sheathe our swords for preservation but draw thy hammer in readiness to STRIKE the pretenders amongst us. Our glorious hour has come should our hidden foes* be revealed in twilight, and to the night our task yet unfulfilled, our thoughts to rebuild, for while the air is chilled quiet blood** - and some - is spilled ...

(*Psst, I'm talking about GK.)
(**Psst, I'm talking about the lurkers.)

[Stef]

EBWOP: damn.. messed up the url

Well.. i've made my opinion regarding you GNK quite clear some time ago and that hasn't changed. You are a newbie and you belonged in a newbie game before joining this one. You continue to play poorly imo.

Regarding the point i made against OP.. it also applies to Charter and others. Charter is playing horribly. If he is scum he is playing horribly. If he is town he is playing horribly. If he is SK he is playing horribly. Overall, he is hurting the game with his posts and attitude.

Too many flakers/lurkers and bad play from some players in this game.

I will give the flakers/lurkers time to respond but i will do everything i can to fight them because as long as they are affecting the game it can't be played properly. I do want to use the deadline but if players' attitude doesn't change soon it isn't likely to change till the deadline and i will be the first to hammer/put at L-1 players who fit in that category before the deadline if they don't do something to clean up their act. Maybe they think that if we aren't all voting for them they are safe doing what they have been doing so far. That is WRONG.

[Wall-E]

lol, that last post of mine was in response to orangepenguin's most recent post

sorry for confusing people

it was basically a less verbose version of post 550






i am involved in like five scumteam theories

most of the theorists aren't voting for me, though

weird, huh?

[Nameless]

Wall-E, I would vote you in a second if GK weren't instead being bandwagoned right now. Also, please don't ignore questions.

[TonyMontana]

@Tony Montana: You like ignoring questions? Why did you fail to answer this? I'd like an answer please.

That's not a question. That's a request to do a full-game analysis. Which I just don't have the capacity to do now, sorry. I stated my top suspicions above.

@ Tony, it's called "giving my opinion". You should try it more often. (See also: dramatised interpretations, and yes, I wonder why that might be? in response to your other quotes.)

It's called "giving my opinion on your opinions".

[TonyMontana]

i am involved in like five scumteam theories

most of the theorists aren't voting for me, though

weird, huh?

I know how you feel. I'd vote you in a heartbeat if you had a better chance of getting lynched than charter, tho.

[Kmd4390]

GnK, I'd much rather see you lynched than Charter. I really think we may have caught both a scum, and the SK in you and Charter. Not sure which is which, but you are both extremely scummy, yet not really connected IMHO.

[charter]

Currently debating if GK or animorph deserves my vote.

[GnKoichi]

Also, agreeing with an argument isn't ignoring the other side. I don't think Charter has been deliberately malicious, but I still mention the possibility. Did ANYBODY even mention the point that technically some of Charter's contradictions weren't?

Except ignoring the other side is exactly what you accused people of who agreed with me. You're a hypocrite if you think it doesn't apply to you. Why would anyone try to defend Charter if they thought my analysis was correct, ESPECIALLY when Charter admitted to lying! The idea you gave of why Charter might have switched his vote without using his other suspicions as reasoning are nice, except that's not what Charter said he did. He lied. I've quoted the posts. You can question what he was thinking, but what he

said

is a cold hard fact.

At this point I have to agree with Tony that you've defended Charter beyond what would be considered reasonable. Charter/Nameless team seems far too likely.

See now, this is what we need more of. Meaningless dramatics

It's not dramatics, it's voting theory. If there is a vote between multiple candidates, but it's likely only two really have a chance of winning (like in the presidential election) voting for a third party is really the same as casting a vote AGAINST the person you would have voted for otherwise. When Wall-E pulled his vote from Charter, he essentially cast a vote against me. I'm not being dramatic, but that's the math of this situation. If one of the lurkers were suddenly suspicious enough to draw votes from both of us, that would be a different story, but right now it's likely either Charter or I are going to be lynched tonight.

Well.. i've made my opinion regarding you GNK quite clear some time ago and that hasn't changed. You are a newbie and you belonged in a newbie game before joining this one. You continue to play poorly imo.

That's why you're voting for me? I didn't want to have to use this, but I didn't think anyone was still holding it against me. I signed up for a Newbie game like two weeks before this one. But there was a problem with the Newbie queue. That game still didn't start until about a week ago. Charter can back me up on this, since he's in the same game (though the waiting list for ICs might be different, at the very least he would have seen that the game took forever to begin). I thought the waiting would be about the same, so that by the time this game started, I would have a few weeks in the newbie game under my belt. If I knew that my lack of experience would have derailed the first have of the day like this, I wouldn't have signed up. But I think since about the midpoint I've played much better. I've built better arguments with strong evidence, and I hope people can look past my earlier mistakes and look just at what I'm saying about Charter's lies!

[Kiro]

Posting to say I've been reading the thread on and off. Trying to finish up some projects for the next few days (should be in the clear Wednesday) and I'd like to examine the last 2 pages more closely then. But here are some quick thoughts.

EdwardElric needs to post something.

animorph needs to post something (been waiting for this one for a while).

Mod: please prod him if necessary.

Wall-E was initially ok with OP's explanation in 500-503 or whatever, then votes him for lurkiness later. Eyebrow raise at that.

GnK: pleading for votes to go back onto charter is seriously annoying me because that kind of tactic just doesn't work, yet starts to blur the line between being scummy or just being plain noobish. Keep in mind that one can also be a newbie scum.

Also, you mentioned if you were lynched in Day 1 (post 542), Town should look at the voting patterns of charter, Nameless, and Plum. Seems like a weak reason to suspect these 3 of scum on that only. You didn't mention KMD or me and I've been on your case a good part of Day 1, KMD as well. I honestly don't think you've thought things through enough and you're tunneling way too hard on charter. Open your eyes and really question others. Don't just blindly accept those who have also voted charter to just be Townies as well. If you're wrong about charter, you are almost certainly dead within the next cycle and that's the biggest tragedy, whether you're Town or Scum because your play is so poor.

[animorpherv1]

animorph needs to post something (been waiting for this one for a while).

Mod: please prod him if necessary.

I only post wqhen I have something to say.

[Plum]

animorph needs to post something (been waiting for this one for a while).

Mod: please prod him if necessary.

I only post wqhen I have something to say.

There's plenty to talk about. Talk about it or tell us why you don't find it relevent. Your dicussion helps the town. Active lurking is anti-town, and with what you've done already looks at least potentially scummy.

[Stef]

Well.. i've made my opinion regarding you GNK quite clear some time ago and that hasn't changed. You are a newbie and you belonged in a newbie game before joining this one. You continue to play poorly imo.

That's why you're voting for me?

I'm voting for you?

[animorpherv1]

animorph needs to post something (been waiting for this one for a while).

Mod: please prod him if necessary.

I only post wqhen I have something to say.

There's plenty to talk about. Talk about it or tell us why you don't find it relevent. Your dicussion helps the town. Active lurking is anti-town, and with what you've done already looks at least potentially scummy.

I'm generaly confused with everyone voting GnK. Can someone explain why?

[GnKoichi]

Kiro: I didn't just say those three. I said people should look at how everyone voted for me, how they behaved around that vote. I mentioned those three specifically because I felt they had been the most single minded in their analysis of me. You, Kmd, and others have seemed more open to both sides. Even if you still end up giving me a hard time, you also tend to hear me out. I don't know that Charter, Nameless, or Plum really have any care to hear the argument I'm making. This is just off the top of my head. If they can show a post where they took me seriously, I might back off. But overall, you're right. I've had a lot of focus on Charter. I've been trying to fit in a re-read to look at others, but there's a lot to go over. I'm hoping to finish before the day is done.

Stef: Sorry, I forgot you were a no vote right now. I meant to question why you're still suspicious of me.

[Plum]

animorph needs to post something (been waiting for this one for a while).

Mod: please prod him if necessary.

I only post wqhen I have something to say.

There's plenty to talk about. Talk about it or tell us why you don't find it relevent. Your dicussion helps the town. Active lurking is anti-town, and with what you've done already looks at least potentially scummy.

I'm generaly confused with everyone voting GnK. Can someone explain why?

GnK: The weird behavior around Wall-E, e.g. going from him as protown and trying to help him get into the game by voting him, rediculous surety on an at-a-stretch-at-best interpretation of Charter's votes to imply a Charter/Wall-E scumteam. At the time, what a call for votes on Charter in caps lock for what appeared to be strongly-worded suspicions, not, as he claimed, a clear admission that he's scum (more on this below). In conjunction with this, suggesting a no-lynch looks less like a newbie/nulltell and more like the work of scum. Attacked Charter earlier for 'trying to mislead the town' by sharing his thoughts on how many NKs would go through, which I've personally refuted multiple times and so won't do so here. Ask if you've got questions.

To be honest, he's done things in the past few pages that have made me think he's scum, too, especially his attack on Charter for having had seven people on his scumlist, a claim that I don't think is factual (in times recent enough to be relevent, I believe I've seen only four, and without quotes from GnK I don't accept the fact he's citing here) and furthermore evolution of one's suspects can and should happen as necessary in this game. GnK also seems to be asking people to vote Charter with some degree of appeal to emotion.

GnK: I took all of your arguments seriously enough to argue with them when I found them illogical, anti-town, or scummy. Not agreeing =/= doesn't take seriously. For example, I took your Charter/Wall-E scumteam possibility seriously enough that I looked at it and posted on argument on why I thought it was wrong and based on poor logic. In addition, see my post listing short cases on everyone I found scummy, ranked in strength of case (not strength of gut or on scumbuddy speculation). You'll notice Charter was at number 2 then. I've certainly been on your case. I find you most scummy and think I've explained why adequately. If not, please request clarification; I'll be glad to oblige. But I've tried my best not to avoid analyzing other players and their actions; hopefully I've been successful.