Mini 709 - Musical Mafia - (Game Over!)

[WhereIsTony]

So Tony, do you believe his vig claim or not?

I would say there is a good chance it is true.

Vote Count:
Atlas - (0)
Budja - (1)corporate
corporate - (0)
Gamma - (1) zachattack
jerseygoomba - (2) Tolmides, Atlas
JordanA24 - (0)
My Milked Eek - (0)
Nekka-Lucifer - (2) Wall-E, Gamma
Tolmides - (0)
Wall-E - (1) Nekka-Lucifer
WhereIsTony - (0)
zachattack - (1) JordanA24

With 12 alive, 7 votes will end the day.

[Atlas]

Can vigilantes even kill themselves?

This is usually mod/pm discretion.

[zachattack]

Without going into much detail, my role pm says nothing about windwoods winning, it only mentions that in order to win we need to remove brass players from the orchestra. I find it odd that the win condition would vary for different people of the same alignment.

This is what I was getting at when I said it doesn't look like Nekka got a pro-town pm. My win condition is the same and it looked to me like Gamma changed it from brass is eliminated to woodwinds win in order to avoid getting modkilled. Nekka thinking this looked like a quote was very suspicious to me, and knowing someone else has the same condition as me makes it a fair assumption that all pro-town players have the same win condition, and Nekka didn't know what that condition was.

unvote
Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

I like the kill the towns second target suggestion for Gamma's night kill, I'm not convinced he's the vig by any means, but I'm fairly confident Nekka is scum.

[Nekka-Lucifer]

You're confident I'm scum based on the fact that I thought that it looked like a PM. In fact the reason I disregarded the 'woodwinds win' section was because I was deemed a Clarinet player (woodwind right?) and I didn't think of checking back on my PM to see if it said if woodwind won or not as it seemed to me at the time that it was the win condition.

[Atlas]

I kind of agree with Eek here. It's odd that Gamma would say "I win with the woodwinds" when that isn't mentioned in the role PM (for vigilantes or vanillas), only that the band has to remove brass players. Methinks (<---I didn't know that was a real word! ) if Gamma is mafia, then his PM said something like "the woodwinds are trying to get rid of you!" and he twisted this into 'I win with the woodwinds'.

Nekka you ignored #97. There were a few direct questions and requests in there.

[Gamma]

Honestly, it said woodwinds.

And that's the closest wording I could've gotten to say without getting modkilled.

Honestly, i'm assuming from my role PM that woodwinds = town or there's some other agenda here.

[Gamma]

what instrument does everyone play, anyway?

(hoping this isn't a mod-kill trigger; just curious. If Clarinet is nekka-lucifer, then somebody's probably flute, etc.)

[Gamma]

and a third post because i suddenly decided to not pay attention to who's voting who on page 4

unvote, vote MyMilkedEek

Honestly, there are more ways to do this than NKing myself.

[My Milked Eek]

and a third post because i suddenly decided to not pay attention to who's voting who on page 4

unvote, vote MyMilkedEek

Honestly, there are more ways to do this than NKing myself.

And you honestly think this is the way to prove that?

If not, and I know it's not, tell me exactly how you can prove you are a vig. I'm dying to hear. If you're willing to win this game you shouldn't be afraid of taking a step sidewards. I hope you realise that you being alive by D2 leads to a decent amount of wifom, which is not beneficial to the town (dependant of N1 and D1 results).

And you feel like an sk to me. I can't help it.

- The very early claim could be seen as a panic reaction because when lynched, you lose. The only logical claim for an sk is vig.

- You say your role pm mentions that the windwoods win when threats are eliminated. Don't go quoting your PM (I feel that we are in a very delicate situation here, don't quote anything), but I think your PM said something along the lines of "you hate the windwoods" and "you win when all threats are eliminated". As pointed out by a few people, the town (or VT) win condition revolves around removing brass players.

- The most recent post and vote for me are very empty. Especially combined with your previous vote for Nekka. Who is, note this down, another person who doesn't believe your claim. Yes, I'm saying you are voting for people who don't believe your claim instead of people who you think are scum. Even if you are a vig, that's not a very pro-town play and makes you a reckless vig. Which is something we don't need.

what instrument does everyone play, anyway?

I'd rather not have people mass-name-claim this early. I expect there to be multiple roles of the same instrument, just like in a real world orchestra, thus it would lead to confusion, mislynches and other stuff.

[Wall-E]

Nekka-Lucifer's OMGUS attack is noted.

You don't like me cheering on the claimed vig? Too bad! I liked Gamma's claim, I liked everything about what he did, up to and including the reprimand.

In your post 60, Nekka, you say that you think Milk is just parroting what everyone else has already said. Can you show a quoted example of each thing Milk said followed by an example of someone else saying it previously?

That isn't omgus.

How do you know that his motive for attacking me wasn't OMGUS? You seem REALLY sure of yourself. I understand if you were just pointing out that ostensibly he did provide reasons for his attacks, but I wonder if he would have attacked me AT ALL if I'd lurked instead of pointing out his bad logic? Hmm.

And of course he's not going to find exact quotes. There are points that resemble each other, but direct quotes? What are you asking here? Trying to make him look suspicious by trying to (somewhat ok?) twist his words?

Read his original post and then tell me what I'm talking about in the above quote. If you still don't get it, I'll be happy to make you look kinda dumb by explaining, but I'd been under the assumption you were paying closer attention than this.

atlas, i know our objective is to find scum, but it feels like you jump on every little thing. maybe im over reacting but it just seems like youre pickyness comes across as over compensating.

maybe im just naive and believe too many people. you could just be a overly helpful townie. but i dunno....

FoS atlas

for making me feel like he is keeping attention off of himself by putting it everywhere else.

No.

This is not good.

Corporate is testing the waters on lynches without voting, as Atlas pointed out (and got voted by corporate for it! OMGUS!).

Unvote: Vote: Corporate

I'm staying with my "he should nk himself". It leads to the least amount of wifom on D2 concerning him.

No. Gamma, do not, under ANY circumstances, vig yourself. I'd rather you vig me than yourself.

Wall-E ... had posted but hadn't added to the discussion at all

Fuck you! I get maaaaybe 2 hours of internet every other day, and so far I've dedicated nearly 50% of it to this damn thread! If you don't think I'm contributing you aren't reading my posts or have a bad definition of contribution.

Gamma's claim is provable. Why kill him?

Explain to me, how exactly is it provable without killing him?
He could be a sk, mafia or a vig. Without going too deep into hypothetical situations (with eventual doctors, RB's and un-NK-able people), how is he going to prove himself? Come on, I dare you.

He can claim his kill, then kill. It will prove he's some kind of killer. As long as he kills who

WE

say, he's

OUR

killer. Scum that obeys town is essentially town.

Look, this whole controversy over Gamma is being overblown. Believe it or not, it's a good idea to go slowly, analyze everything, and be somewhat forgiving. We want the scum to have as many opportunities each day to slip. Gamma's already "slipped," so we've established him as our backup lynch for the day, I think.

But for the reasons I've outlined MANY TIMES already, we need him alive more than dead.

[My Milked Eek]

How do you know that his motive for attacking me wasn't OMGUS?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#1366683
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

Simple. I know what omgus means.

And after I typed this and while rereading the preview, I saw your little trap; I don't know his true motive. Thanks for that. +1 for Wall-E.

But seriously, is it omgus when a person votes for another when the other voted for the first one one or two pages ago? And while using valid reasons? You are twisting Nekka's vote and the basis of it so much that it isn't funny anymore.

You seem REALLY sure of yourself. I understand if you were just pointing out that ostensibly he did provide reasons for his attacks, but I wonder if he would have attacked me AT ALL if I'd lurked instead of pointing out his bad logic? Hmm.

He voted for you because of
"What made you come to your conclusion that you like Gamma? Surely after his -3 and vig claim in the first 2 pages you wouldn't like his play and be quite suspicious. Please elaborate on your reasoning."

Where did you point out his bad logic? Why are trying to push for omgus here? And I know you know what omgus means;

Corporate is testing the waters on lynches without voting, as Atlas pointed out (and got voted by corporate for it! OMGUS!).

This isn't omgus in its purest form, but it's closer than the above.

He can claim his kill, then kill. It will prove he's some kind of killer. As long as he kills who

WE

say, he's

OUR

killer. Scum that obeys town is essentially town.

Where's the involvement of other power roles? Doctors? Roleblockers? The possibility of the victims of the vig and the scum being the same? The scum not sending in a kill? Why is he still alive on D2? Why wasn't he roleblocked? Etc... Etc... (all hypothetical)

Prove to me he's not an sk. Or a mafia. All you did prove was that he can kill during the night. I don't want scum obeying us, I want scum to die.

Let's assume he kills for us. Questions arising: Why wasn't the victim he claimed to kill, killed? He claims a doc or rb came into effect or w/e.

See how many unanswered/unanswerable questions pop up?

But for the reasons I've outlined MANY TIMES already, we need him alive more than dead.

Tell me why. All you said was "gogogo gamma" and "he could kill for us". (exaggeration)

Read his original post and then tell me what I'm talking about in the above quote. If you still don't get it, I'll be happy to make you look kinda dumb by explaining, but I'd been under the assumption you were paying closer attention than this.

I think the problem lies with me misreading your post and not his.

[Gamma]

post didn't go through.

- The most recent post and vote for me are very empty. Especially combined with your previous vote for Nekka. Who is, note this down, another person who doesn't believe your claim. Yes, I'm saying you are voting for people who don't believe your claim instead of people who you think are scum. Even if you are a vig, that's not a very pro-town play and makes you a reckless vig. Which is something we don't need.

Would you rather have 7 or 8 townies and no power role or 7 or 8 townies and a vig?

You're lookin' to be trying to mute my influence on the game, afraid of a vig turning the tables against scum.

Or so I say.

[Gamma]

Lol Wall-E, you're defending me so hard, you and I should be scum-buddies.

we would be invincible.

You, Zachattack and Gamma: the triple love-train threat.

[My Milked Eek]

- The most recent post and vote for me are very empty. Especially combined with your previous vote for Nekka. Who is, note this down, another person who doesn't believe your claim. Yes, I'm saying you are voting for people who don't believe your claim instead of people who you think are scum. Even if you are a vig, that's not a very pro-town play and makes you a reckless vig. Which is something we don't need.

I take it that by not refuting this, you agree with it?

Would you rather have 7 or 8 townies and no power role or 7 or 8 townies and a vig?

You're twisting my words. +1

What I do not want;
- a reckless vig
- an sk
- a mafia

Guess what, you are either one of these three. Your most recent vote for me and the previous vote for Nekka confirm this. You will shoot down people who have voted for you or suspected you before you will go after scummy people. Even if you were a vig, this is reckless behaviour and not wanted.

You're lookin' to be trying to mute my influence on the game, afraid of a vig turning the tables against scum.

I'm not afraid of using a vig. However, judging from your recent votes, early claim and role-pm I do not think of you as a vig. Or at the least, a useful one.

Or so I say.

Sure, whatever.

Lol Wall-E, you're defending me so hard, you and I should be scum-buddies.

we would be invincible.

You, Zachattack and Gamma: the triple love-train threat.

. . .

[zachattack]

Gamma being the serial killer makes sense. Nowhere was it indicated to me that only woodwinds were town, just that brass were mafia. What about percussion or strings? Gamma could be individual, gotten a pm that said brass were mafia but he's not siding with the woodwinds either, recognized that woodwinds were town so claimed his condition as he wins with the woodwinds instead of when the brass were eliminated. The piccolo seems like an obscure instrument for a 12 person band as well.

Nekka don't quote anything, but maybe you should reread your role pm and check your win condition, it's still possible that the mod made slight variations to the win condition of the pro-towns as he wrote them.

Quote:
Wall-E ... had posted but hadn't added to the discussion at all


Fuck you! I get maaaaybe 2 hours of internet every other day, and so far I've dedicated nearly 50% of it to this damn thread! If you don't think I'm contributing you aren't reading my posts or have a bad definition of contribution.

You have contributed for sure, at the time I made the post in question though all you had posted was a random vote and stuff about jerseys name and avatar. Since then you've been active and added to the discussion, this comment was based on your first 3 or 4 posts.

While I'm pissing people off questioning their activity, on page 2 a lot of suspicion was being placed on jersey, up until Gammas vig claim. Since Gamma's claimed vig, he's only posted twice.

Sorry all, been a busy day or two. I have to say I was surprised by the vig claim, and to be honest pretty perplexed why gamma would choose to threaten townies even in jest. Do we really want him making life-or-death decisions if he goes on another bender????

A few beers and one of us could find ourself watch the performance from the wrong side of the pit. Not something I am comfortable with in the least. And self-voting? Is there anything scarier than a drunken vig with suicidal tendencies???

I'm thinking out loud. I wanted to see if anyone else shares my concerns or thinks I'm overreacting (again). Not to mention, I want to give Gamma a chance to respond before I decide to vote for him. After all, isn't more discussion better than less, especially on Day 1? I want to make sure I am making a theoretically educated vote at this point.

At this point, we had spent about 2 solid pages discussing our feelings on Gamma's claim. It seems like he's trying to blend in with the town and slip under the radar while we all go nuts on the Gamma situation.

Lol Wall-E, you're defending me so hard, you and I should be scum-buddies.

we would be invincible.

You, Zachattack and Gamma: the triple love-train threat.

Actually, we are the robot mafia.

The ENTIRE robot mafia.

[Wall-E]

watch out guys milk will give you a +1 if you say things he doesn't like

[Wall-E]

Dear Milk:

Let's talk. I know we've been distant these past few days, but I feel a budding friendship here.

Shall we?

How do you know that his motive for attacking me wasn't OMGUS?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#1366683
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

Simple. I know what omgus means.

Knowing what it means doesn't mean his motive wasn't it. Trying to blind us with science? Try again.

And after I typed this and while rereading the preview, I saw your little trap; I don't know his true motive. Thanks for that. +1 for Wall-E.

You are disapproving of me because YOU said my supposition was a supposition? Congratulations, you've broken my brain.

But seriously, is it omgus when a person votes for another when the other voted for the first one one or two pages ago? And while using valid reasons? You are twisting Nekka's vote and the basis of it so much that it isn't funny anymore.

In this case, I think it was. I noticed you ignored my hypothetical while instituting several of your own. That's hypocrisy.

Do you think he would have said what he did had I never typed his name? I vote no, my gut does too, and so I dub it OMGUS. You can kick and scream all day, not changing my mind.

You seem REALLY sure of yourself. I understand if you were just pointing out that ostensibly he did provide reasons for his attacks, but I wonder if he would have attacked me AT ALL if I'd lurked instead of pointing out his bad logic? Hmm.

He voted for you because of

"What made you come to your conclusion that you like Gamma? Surely after his -3 and vig claim in the first 2 pages you wouldn't like his play and be quite suspicious. Please elaborate on your reasoning."

Where did you point out his bad logic? Why are trying to push for omgus here?

He doesn't like me because I took the opposite stance from him on Gamma's claim. Voting me without saying why what I did is scummy is scummy, because it's stupid. Stupid logic, based on feelings of OMGUS and not sound thinking. QED: OMGUS.

He can claim his kill, then kill. It will prove he's some kind of killer. As long as he kills who

WE

say, he's

OUR

killer. Scum that obeys town is essentially town.

Where's the involvement of other power roles? Doctors? Roleblockers? The possibility of the victims of the vig and the scum being the same? The scum not sending in a kill? Why is he still alive on D2? Why wasn't he roleblocked? Etc... Etc... (all hypothetical)

So to keep your poor widdle bwain from asploding we should kill him.

Uh, no.

Prove to me he's not an sk. Or a mafia. All you did prove was that he can kill during the night. I don't want scum obeying us, I want scum to die.

I've proved nothing. I'm supposing. That's how we play this game!

Let's assume he kills for us. Questions arising: Why wasn't the victim he claimed to kill, killed? He claims a doc or rb came into effect or w/e.

See how many unanswered/unanswerable questions pop up?

You're the one complicating things for no reason.

...You know what? You're right, let's kill the provable and controllable killer because there's probably a doc.

[Gamma]

Where's the involvement of other power roles? Doctors? Roleblockers? The possibility of the victims of the vig and the scum being the same? The scum not sending in a kill? Why is he still alive on D2? Why wasn't he roleblocked? Etc... Etc... (all hypothetical)

Those variables are a risk i had to consider when i spit out my role.

Hey, those issues would've been at head if I didn't claim and i didn't vote atlas, and if instead of the Gamma show on D1, it could've been the jerseygoomba show, or the corporate show, or the JordanA24 show.

Prove to me he's not an sk. Or a mafia. All you did prove was that he can kill during the night. I don't want scum obeying us, I want scum to die.

And so do I.

Except you're killing townie.


You're doin it wrong.

[jerseygoomba]

...You know what? You're right, let's kill the provable and controllable killer because there's probably a doc.

Wall-E...once again I think you are making a leap that he is controllable. That being said, I'm not convinced Gamma is scum yet.

[Budja]

Gamma being the serial killer makes a lot of sense.
That could explain his whole kill-whoever-I-want attitude and his early claim.



I want to vote Gamma but I am not sure if it is worth the risk.
Bah

vote Gamma

for now...

[zachattack]

Eek, does your role PM say anything about woodwinds? You've stated your win condition is to get rid of the brass instruments, but does your PM indicate that the town is specifically woodwind, or just that the brass are mafia?

I'll reiterate that Jersey really seems to be trying to slip under the radar. He was the center of a lot of suspicion on page 2, until this became the Gamma show. He hasn't really posted anything significant, and his last post was very wishy washy.

What risk Budja? Yours is the only vote on Gamma right now. I'm suspicious of people who are too cautious with their vote, they seem afraid that they're going to get caught voting town and seem suspicious because of it.

Just in case it got lost in the wall of text earlier, I'll say again that I want to know if Nekka's win condition is he wins with the woodwinds, or if he wins when the brass are gone.

[jerseygoomba]

OK zach, what was so wishy washy about it? I pointed out that I don't think we can trust Gamma to do the right thing by the town. (I agree with Budja that SK actually makes sense with his stance). I'm not convinced that he is mafia but he poses just as much of a threat as the mafia does. So for now, I'm gonna join Budja and

vote Gamma

[Tolmides]

...You know what? You're right, let's kill the provable and controllable killer because there's probably a doc.

Wall-E...once again I think you are making a leap that he is controllable. That being said, I'm not convinced Gamma is scum yet.

As far as I'm concerned, it's insane to be voting for somebody claiming to be our vig. Give him a chance to prove his utility. When we come to a consensus on a player to kill, we should also indicate a secondary target. If he doesn't take out that secondary target, we kill him. If he's a SK, then he'll have to kill our choices or be killed by us (this will obviously need to be relooked at around the end) and if he's mafia then we'll quickly know if the real vig doesn't kill the same person.

But to kill him right off the bat seems to me the height of recklessness - which logically leads to my top three suspects being jersey, Budja and zach.

[zachattack]

Why me, jersey and budja but not Nekka? Nekka's been as critical of Gamma as I have, and when he changed his vote to Wall-E seemed to indicate it would go back to Gamma after he got some information out of Wall-E. What makes him less suspicious then the three of us?

If we believe it's more likely that Gamma is SK then Vig, why not kill him now. Based on what I've seen so far it seems likely. You aren't the first person to suggest he kill our number 2 each night, Wall-E did on page 4 and it's been brought up a few times since then. Gamma's posted several times since and never even acknowledged the idea. If he is pro-town vig, and decides to kill whoever he feels like, he's still a hindrance to the town. His vote on Eek, who is near the bottom of the list of people who've acted scummy so far, suggests he'll attack people who are critical of him, rather than people who are scummy.

Say he does go along with the kill the #2 suspect suggestion. It will prove nothing as far as him being SK or vig. If he is SK he can listen to us, kill who we tell him to, draw protection, and last to the end because we'll assume since he's killing who we tell him to he's on our side. SK's want to see the mafia die too. I agree that unless no better lead comes up we should wait until day two to decide what to do with him, but I don't think it would be reckless to get rid of him today if we don't have a better lead.

[Tolmides]

Well zach, I'm focusing on the ones who are voting for Gamma for now, and you three are the ones who've voted for him. I've already voiced my suspicions of Nekka in previous posts, so don't think I'm letting him off scot free.

Okay then, let's test this number 2 theory:

Gamma: Will you or will you not kill the town's number two target every night? If you won't, then I will support your lynching.

If he does, then it means that he's either a SK or a vig (if there is an actual vig out there I'd hope he wouldn't pick our number 2 suspect, purely so that we know we can safely kill Gamma). Of course, we run the risk of getting to the end with a SK we think is a vig. But that's not something we should worry about today. If Gamma is a SK we can use him for now and ditch him endgame (and just to be sure, we should probably do it anyway).