Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[kloud1516]

Remind you both: Xtoxm was a SK not a cult

I am aware of this, Poro.

[farside22]

Still no one is voting.
Reminder:
Day 4 deadline is December 4th, 10:30am PST

Prodding:
DP
Kmd
Wolf

[Kmd4390]

Prodding me? Why? I'm here.

[farside22]

Prodding me? Why? I'm here.

Your last post was on Tuesday.

[Kmd4390]

Weird. Didn't notice that. I've been online and reading the thread every day.

Well anyway, my opinions haven't changed since Tuesday. Still ok with a massclaim.

[Zorblag]

OK, my week done; I've proctored my last midterm and have a chance to sit down and catch up on things here. Let's start with the end of kloud1516's last post (it's the easy part).

As a question to everyone, does kloud1516 seem focused on me in particular or is that my misconception just because he has focused on at least me?

I would like to respond: I am looking at others, but the limited amount of time I have right now has been getting in the way of my opportunity to organize my thoughts and get them submitted. I am sure you of all people, since you have been swamped with midterms and grading papers, can identify with this. Analysis and opinions of others are on the way.

You're certainly part of everyone so the response is appreciated. I do certainly accept that things can get busy and I don't mind that at all. This portion of the post on my part was a precursor to questioning your possibility of tunnel-visioning. If others get some examination as well then I'll have no reason to go ahead and wonder why you would be doing that. I don't even particularly need to you to stop focusing on me to do that; just show more evidence that you're looking at others (and I'll take you at your word that you will at this time.) As such I expect that to shortly be a non-issue for me.

Here are the points/ideas I can see from your post 161:
>Xtoxm has apparently self hammered
>Xtoxm has claimed cult.

>Why has xtoxm claimed cult?

>Farside-mod said vote counts would be misleading, so are we in twilight, or is it still Day 1?

>Your jester speculation was a stretch.
>

Here is an even bigger stretch:

what about a pathological liar PR, or even a vote restriction on felons?

I'll take a slight issue of your classification of the last point there. The pathological liar PR was supposed to be a bigger stretch than the jester but it was the idea that accounted for both the fact that we were in twilight as well as Xtoxm's play (in a way that didn't just have him playing poorly.) It was the idea that I had come up with that manage to explain everything but it was enough of a stretch that I felt I had to mention that so that people didn't think that I was saying that it should be true.

The possibility of a felon not getting a vote was meant much more serious. We were warned that we couldn't trust the vote count and Dukes voted Xtoxm as well as breadcrumbed Bender particularly hard. If we were not in twilight that struck me as a reasonable reason why. Based on the reactions of others (LlamaFluff in Post 163 and Ghostwriter the next post) others didn't take it to be as far fetched as you're making it out to be.

The cult question could not be answered by anyone save xtoxm, so posing it as an aside like you did, to me, would be of no value. Sure, he may have answered it, but why not direct the question at him instead of simply leaving it on the table for others to interpret as they will? As is, the question seems to all but invite others to give their input on something we have no information about, thus promoting WIFOM and speculation.

The question that I asked about cults could be answered by people other than Xtoxm. As I've said before, I have not played a game with a cult in it previously. I was asking (albeit in a brief way) whether others had some reason that cult might want to eliminate them self for a reason that I hadn't run across simply due to inexperience with the role. You've had experience with Xtoxm and were taking that into account when deciding what was worth bringing up. I assume that you've also had experience with games with cults based on how this conversation is going. I have not. What you're labeling as fishing for speculation was in fact an attempt to establish that my initial reaction that there wouldn't be a legitimate reason for cult to self hammer any more than there would be for a SK.

I don't want to seem like I'm playing the newbie card here. I was however trying to get input from those with more experience on an issue to which I have no exposure. If that comes across as scummy in this case to you there's little I can do about that. I will continue to ask in game about issues which I encounter for the first time not as a means to distract but rather as a way to gain information.

Further, if we really were in twilight (which it turns out that we were) then post 161 wouldn't actually do anything to hinder us as the day was over anyhow. The only way might have been important for what it was intended to bring up was if the day hadn't ended; if we still were in day one when I made the post then I would have stuck by everything that I brought up as there would have been some voting wackiness that we could have tried to learn about.

I disagree, for if anyone had actually taken the time to look at this post/caught these posts at the beginning of Day 2, discussion could have fallen upon xtoxm's actions and your baseless suspicions which would have gotten us nowhere. As it was, no one did, but the possibility is still there, meaning it could have done harm to town causes. If Day 1 had indeed continued, then this would have promoted WIFOM and theory in ways already described.

If anyone had picked up on speculation of Xtoxm's role in day two it would clearly have been scummy. If he was the SK or even anti-town cult who self hammer and eliminated the cult from the game (and he was SK) then anyone who went back at the speculation of him being other things to focus on what his motives were the next day would definitely have been trying to do the distracting from scumhunting which I think that you're accusing me of. If anyone had done that I would have been the first to vote for them. My questions were there to provide potential use if we were still in twilight.

I think that we aren't understanding what each other are trying to say in regards to:

You claim that "the way he chose not to win arbitrarily hurts town and helps scum," which to me implies that you felt that the xtoxm lynch was not the best move. If you would have elaborated to explain the lack of information was the negative/harm you were referring to, then my opinion of this would have differed. You didn't though, and your desire for more information is already questionable based on reasonings provided both in this post and in post 362.

I took this to mean that you thought I was saying the decision to lynch Xtoxm was my complaint about day 1. Jahudo seemed to have this impression as well when he said:

I'm not sure what in particular you had in mind there and I'm a bit slow right now as I've just spent the past 6 hours straight grading papers but it is clear that you probably think some of the issues that were raised about me had some merit. I'm happy to address any that you'd like to bring up. I'm also curious as to whether what you had in mind what that sentence was addressed in my post here.

Basically it was when kloud said this:

You claim that "the way he chose not to win arbitrarily hurts town and helps scum," which to me implies that you felt that the xtoxm lynch was not the best move. If you would have elaborated to explain the lack of information was the negative/harm you were referring to, then my opinion of this would have differed. You didn't though, and your desire for more information is already questionable based on reasonings provided both in this post and in post 362.

I also felt that the Zorblag quote kloud used explained that it was about the lack of information and not about trying to say that xtoxm was not the best move. I don't know how kloud came to that conclusion.

Your issue instead seems to be that I was not giving further reasons that we hadn't gathered information but rather that I was simply repeating my assertion that the lack of information was detrimental despite your belief that I had been acting in a way which stopped us from gather the the information in the past. Is that an accurate assessment of what you were saying?

In any case, if the issue was that you see me as trying to confound rather than add to our information pool I can accept that as your interpretation of what I have posted. My intention was to try to get us to continue to examine closely what was happening without making assumptions that we had no great reason to make. I'm still trying to do that now and will continue to. I suspect that you will find my game to be a more speculative one than might be typical but I don't let that hold me back from voting. I attempt to keep an open mind and watch everyone but not to be indecisive because I'm doing this. It's a play style that might well continue to lead to suspicion of me here (the fora in general) but I don't have a great way to control that so I'll just have to deal with it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So that I don't get too wrapped up in my discussion with kloud1516 here are my thoughts on everyone still in the game so far:

Drunken Piper: I do appreciate the continued attention on pacman281292. I agree that his claim doesn't clear him as it would be a decent claim to make if he were scum trying to hide. I've seen you talk about both pacman281292 in some depth of the players who are still alive. I wonder if you find the play of anyone else to be suspicious at this time?

Jahudo: As I said when I was talking about pacman281292's claim I currently find Jahudo to be the most likely townie of the group. This is both because of the dynamics of the claim as well as the overall play from Jahudo.

kloud1516: It might not be clear from my recent posts but if kloud1516 gives the same attention to other posters that he has to me then I will find his play today to be fairly pro-town. Right now he's barking up the wrong tree as I am town but I do mostly like the effort and it does come across as a genuine attempt to analyze what I've done to determine whether I'm scum or not.

Kmd4390: I see a case for pacman281292 (though one a bit light on details) and an argument for a massclaim today. I don't particularly think that he's been lurking but at the same time looking back I see that I'm not particularly sure what he's thinking of anyone past pacman281292. Are there people that you think have been scummy? If we don't end up massclaiming today what would you like to see next?

pacman281292: I've seen his claim and talked about it some. I really hope that he'll have time today (before he hits V/LA) to give us thoughts beyond his own defense. If he is town I don't think that I've gotten much other from his play to help us other than his clearing of Jahudo which is good but mostly a confirmation of town play. If he's going to be mostly gone for big stretches then it feels like we'll be down a resource that we didn't get much use of. I'm certainly not saying that I think he's scum because he's going to be unavailable but I do think that he's done as little as about anyone to help me form opinions other than that I found him scummy yesterday.

Porochaz: I'm not getting much from Porochaz today. He was willing to vote pacman281292 to start the day and withdrew when the claim was made but I'm not sure what he's made of pacman281292 since then. He has made a case about the massclaim which is fine and has indicated suspicion about Wolframnhart for his reaction to the idea but I think I'm getting a gut "flying below the radar" read from him right now. I'd like to hear more from him.

Wolframnhart: As I said a couple days ago, I'm not sure that I know anything about who Wolframnhart finds suspicious today. He was the one of the three people that farside22 prodded that I found least surprising. He seems not to have taken anything of a stand today on any of the players which I don't care for.

I suppose right now my top suspects would be Wolframnhart, pacman281292 and vaguely Porochaz. Jahudo is the only one I think is particularly likely to be town though I would put kloud1516 as a second most likely right now. I think that hearing more from people in general would ease concerns on my part. Who do we find suspicious in general? We've got no votes cast right now (since the reactions to pacman281292's claim.) In general do we think the claim is legit?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[pacman281292]

pacman281292: I've seen his claim and talked about it some. I really hope that he'll have time today (before he hits V/LA) to give us thoughts beyond his own defense. If he is town I don't think that I've gotten much other from his play to help us other than his clearing of Jahudo which is good but mostly a confirmation of town play. If he's going to be mostly gone for big stretches then it feels like we'll be down a resource that we didn't get much use of. I'm certainly not saying that I think he's scum because he's going to be unavailable but I do think that he's done as little as about anyone to help me form opinions other than that I found him scummy yesterday.

hmm...
The first part is a good point (and I'm talking about that now).
However, the part that looks weird is the last part. If we lynch protown (what I am, sorry for trying to be Captain Obvclaimer), we lose. No more no less.
Or possibly we discover that there were just 2 scum instead of 3. I doubt this.
Sorry, I must leave my comp right now. I'll hardly try to get access later, or tomorrow.
Sorry

[wolframnhart]

Yeesh, didn't realize my last post was tuesday, sorry guys.

I am fine either way with a massclaim, i can wait till tomorrow (if there is one) or i can go now.

I can understand Zorblags thoughts on me, can't really say i blame him. I am being careful today though only because of something that happened last night, and it might concern the vote count but i am not sure. I can explain more if ya'll want, and i feel i should explain but i will see what everyone says.

[pacman281292]

OK, here I go:
The idea of massclaim came up to here. And, it's possibly good, because we are very likely to be on LyLo (and Stoofer's 2nd law or something like it makes me think that, effectively, on LyLo)
(the law I'm talking about is: more complex setup = slight bias in favor of scum)
I don't know if this massclaim idea might work, but I'll declare myself neutral.
I've also seen that people is trying to slightly "outguess the mod", trying to find out how the setup is. Idon't think the setup will be that similar; just compare Futurama and FG
My toughts, player by player:
I receive lots of vibes (scummy and townish) from kloud; some of his posts are weird, others are definitely scummy, others are townish.
I receive a very strong town vibe from DP; his attitude is really good and, still being abrasive, he is catching some good points.
I receive a neutral vibe from wolf; his posts are usually short (possibly I can't see his long posts), and don't tell to me anything.
I receive a not-so-good vibe from Zorblag; possibly due to his high activity, he usually makes some bad points; also, he looked "swingy" at some points. He is not totally scummy, but he is sometimes not good.
Kmd hasn't posted actively lately (possibly he explained when responding to prod), and I don't know what to say about him.
I receive a not so good vibe from Porochaz; his posts are usually not good, and he swinged waay fast after my claim. However his last posts are not too bad, so it gives him points on his favor.
And a list of my read on each player, in ascendent order of "towniness":
Porochaz (less townish for me, sorry for not elaborating enough because I must go to sleep now)
(very little distance)
Zorblag
(very little distance)
Kmd390+kloud1516 (tie)
(very little distance)
wolframnhart

Drunken Piper

Jahudo (most townish)
Bye

[pacman281292]

EBWOP:

.
.
.
(and Stoofer's 2nd law or something like it makes me think that, effectively,

we are

on LyLo)
.
.
.

add italicized; i missed to put it.

[Jahudo]

@pacman: I had to look it up just to see what you were talking about. It's Stoofer's 3rd law but yeah, a complicated game favors scum and the number of pro-town power roles may actually help scum.

I guess I can agree with that because some pro-town roles like roleblocker or vig can be used on town, etc. But you'd think that if there are 3 scum then we'd have some good power roles, more so than a doc and a RB which we've lost.

Here's some more pros and cons I can think of:

PRO MASSCLAIM:
A massclaim might be beneficial so people with power roles know what to expect at night and what to check out, like an investigative role confirming something.
A massclaim could help us come to an agreement whether or not we're at Lynch-or-lose.

CON MASSCLAIM:
Scum will know the best power role to kill or block, etc.
We can not know for sure if we are at Lynch-or-lose.

Also, I don't know characters will help as much as I had previously thought. Looking at the Family Guy game, I realized that "good" characters were scum (ex. Brian, Meg) and characters didn't get roles you'd think they would (ex. Joe was not a cop). So I don't see any pro or con to a character claim. I've already breadcrumbed my character name and I don't mind claiming it either.

[farside22]

I will be out all day. If something important is needed send a PM to iLord. If not just wait and I will be back tomorrow.
Thanks

[Zorblag]

I can understand Zorblags thoughts on me, can't really say i blame him. I am being careful today though only because of something that happened last night, and it might concern the vote count but i am not sure. I can explain more if ya'll want, and i feel i should explain but i will see what everyone says.

If you think that explaining will help the town avoid mistakes due to assumptions about how the vote is going to work then I don't oppose your explaining it; though the fact that you've brought this up at all should allow us to approach this vote more cautiously in and of itself. If you think that providing details would help the scum by giving them warning about some particular voting irregularity then I'm happier if we don't hear it. Basically, if you're town I'll trust your judgment on what is worth saying (and if you're scum then you'll be working against the town's best interests anyhow so it won't matter what I say.)

I don't mind your being careful here, especially with your vote, but like I tried to make clear before, the thing that I find scummy about your play is that I'm not seeing anything that makes me think that you're scum hunting today. I'd love to hear some thoughts from you about what other people are doing and what you find scummy or pro-town. I believe that we've got a much better shot at winning this if we have everyone actively trying to figure that out. Right now you've talked more today about the potential setup than anything else. Adding this last bit about knowledge of game dynamics is interesting but still doesn't give us any more access to your attempts to find scum as a player (and ignoring whatever special information you might have.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[wolframnhart]

The "special info" i have mainly has to do with my role, but the problem is much like you have said Zorblag i am not sure if by saying anything it really helps or just gives out extra info, and since i am not 100 percent sure I am kinda at a loss to tell the truth, but i do want to be careful with my vote because of it (that make sense?)

My thoughts so far on today is that I find you Zorblag townie, your thoughts have been pro-town to me and that you are really trying to be careful more then rushing through things.

Kloud i also find to be townie, his thoughts are good and he brings up some decent points, and all in all i haven't really seen anything scummy from him.

Poro i am neutral on, don't see anything either way really.

DP i am a little weary of, partly from the hammer yesterday but at the same time i really can't blame him for it, Dukes was a scummy player, just not scum.

KMD i am also feeling weird vibes from, his posts haven't been much in the way of content (but lets face it mine haven't been nuggets of insight either). The thing that gets me on him more then anything is his constant voting against Pacman without really pushing much of a case on him, just a few questions here and there and a vote, then when pacman claimed he unvoted based on character and not much else.

Pacman i find pro-town, his hider role will help the town out alot, and with his claim of hiding behind Jahudo he has also cleared jahudo in my book, of course if for some reason pacman was lynched for whatever reason and flipped scum, my opinion on jahudo would change.

IF there are 2 mafia and not 3, my suspects would be KMD and DP, but nothing hard against them, just more feeling right now. If there were three, i might put pacman in there only because he could have claimed hider in a gamble, and choose someone he knew to be town to say he hid behind them to make his claim more believable.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd4390: I see a case for pacman281292 (though one a bit light on details) and an argument for a massclaim today. I don't particularly think that he's been lurking but at the same time looking back I see that I'm not particularly sure what he's thinking of anyone past pacman281292. Are there people that you think have been scummy? If we don't end up massclaiming today what would you like to see next?

My top choices would be Kloud, Porochaz, and DP,. I don't have much of a case on any of them though.

I am fine either way with a massclaim, i can wait till tomorrow

(if there is one)

or i can go now.

See, this is what I'm worried about. I don't want to see us rush into a lynch, and find out we were in LYLO and didn't know it. That's why I'm hesitant to vote anyone right now.

I am being careful today though only because of something that happened last night, and it might concern the vote count but i am not sure. I can explain more if ya'll want, and i feel i should explain but i will see what everyone says.

Well, since you brought it up, I'd elaborate. Unless it's something that you feel would hurt the town.


Jahudo, you pros seem to out weigh your cons on the massclaim. And I like the idea of being able to plan the night during the day.


Wolf, I thought I made my case on Pacman pretty clear in Day 1. The unvote was not based on his character, it was based on his hider claim. I'd rather not go into detail on that though.

[Zorblag]

Kmd4390: I see a case for pacman281292 (though one a bit light on details) and an argument for a massclaim today. I don't particularly think that he's been lurking but at the same time looking back I see that I'm not particularly sure what he's thinking of anyone past pacman281292. Are there people that you think have been scummy? If we don't end up massclaiming today what would you like to see next?

My top choices would be Kloud, Porochaz, and DP,. I don't have much of a case on any of them though.

This fails to reassure me offhand. I can see not having iron-clad reasons to put people at the top of your list but I don't see any of those three as coming from anywhere you've indicated previously (with the possible exception of Drunken Piper if I go back to your first couple posts of the game.) Other than gut can you give us anything else here? Why shouldn't I think that you're just throwing out names to have names out there?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Kmd4390]

Well if you read back, you will see that I was suspicious of Kloud as soon as I replaced in. Porochaz, I feel isn't getting enough attention. People seem to have assumed that he isn't a mafia day cop. That may be true. That doesn't make him auto town though.

[Drunken Piper]

I am about a page behind and will try to catch up today.
been very busy, and free time must pay.

[kloud1516]

Your issue instead seems to be that I was not giving further reasons that we hadn't gathered information but rather that I was simply repeating my assertion that the lack of information was detrimental despite your belief that I had been acting in a way which stopped us from gather the the information in the past. Is that an accurate assessment of what you were saying?

Yes, your statement above is accurate. The reason I found your posts so alarming was because of the clear contradiction (or what I felt/feel to be a clear contradiction) in your train of thought. One moment, you are advocating for acquiring more information, the next you are submitting stretches in speculation and providing WIFOM arguments. I acknowledge that we have discussed this back and forth for some time now, and as such I feel as though both of our opinions on the issue are blatantly clear at this point. The post from Day 2 ties dovetails my earlier reasoning, as you once again seem to come back to expressing how detrimental it was/how the town would suffer from lynching xtoxm so quickly and not listening to you. This was my point exactly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel it would be beneficial for the group if everyone posted their opinions on who they find to be scummy (or likely pro-town), in addition to reasoning for their statements, as it has been generating, or appears to now be sparking, discussion in which everyone will be able to take an active part in participating.

Pro-Town Vibe:

Jahudo

- he has consistently provided well-reasoned, and logical posts which tend to encompass all players and the discussions at that moment. He has posed questions to almost everyone, inquiries that, for the most part, have been beneficial in discerning responses or clarifying one's perspective/argument of the situation. I feel that this inclusiveness portrays someone who is actively scumhunting and contributing phenomenally to the progression of the game.

This being said, I can't help but feel that most of Jahudo's posts have been questions directed at other players. While this is not inherently a negative aspect of play, for reasons given above, it seems to me that Jahudo is more of a mediator in discussions than an actual proponent to them at times. Yes, he gives his opinion (this paragraph is not meant to insinuate otherwise), which, as I have acknowledged, are very rational and analytical, but more often then not, at least from what I have seen, Jahudo has questioned on subjects without giving his own opinion on them. This may or may not be an accurate claim, and so if I have made a mistake please tell me otherwise, but when going back over your content, this was the one criticism I had.

Pacman

- His earlier erratic play did not really convey scumminess, at least to me. Yes, there were things that I found to be curious with his play and responses, but with his minimal activity level throughout the duration of the game, I am inclined to believe that this could have been a flustered player trying to make sure he contributed as he attempted to get up to speed. Do I think that pacman could be scum? Yes, just as I believe there is a possibility for Jahudo to be scum, but his recent Hider claim I feel eases many of the weak doubts I had of him.

Neutral Vibe:

Porochaz

- As discussed in an earlier analysis of his play, I claimed to feel that poro was more likely town then scum. My Day 1 opinions of him were conflicted one another for reasons already given, but his consistent posting and active involvement in the game in both Days 1 and 2 made me believe he leaned more to the pro-town side of the spectrum. Based on Day 3, however, he has fallen into neutral territory, for he seems to vanish from conversation, then pop up every so often. The gradual deterioration of involvement in the game makes me feel that I need to watch him more closely so that he doesn't fly under the radar.

Wolf

- His current opinions and contribution are appreciated, since the more voices heard in the discussion of whether or not to massclaim will, hopefully, help us make a majority decision as whether or not to either wait until tomorrow or set something in motion today. I think he and Jahudo have posted the most content analyzing this predicament (correct me if I am wrong). This being said, I must admit that I have not read as closely into Wolf's play as I need to, which is my reasoning for placing him in the neutral territory. I have not made as many observations of his play to be confident in finding him either most likely pro-town, or anti-town at the moment. If I had to base it off of Day 3, I would lean towards him being town, but I need to be more informed before doing so.

DP

- Again, the case of not looking into his actions as intensely as others' comes into play once more. I will be delving into the content provided by both Wolf and DP, but for now they will be in the neutral category.

Anti-Town Vibe:

Zorblag

- for reasons given in the back-and-forth. Your responses and solid position during the discussion have eased my suspicions of you, but I still feel your inconsistent trains of thought and early play are an indication of you being scum. I will agree with others when they say that you display pro-town traits with your careful analyses, but to me the points I have elaborated upon overwhelm this characteristic of your play. Am I saying that you are 100% scum in my book? No, but to me the scumminess in some of your posts stands very prominently.

KMD

- You provide top choices on who you deduce are most likely scum at this point, then admit you don't have much of a case on any of them. This alarms me, not just because you deem me suspect for my case on Dukes (which I feel I refuted), but also due to the fact that this post appears to be an attempt to bypass provided cases on people to make yourself look like you are actually scumhunting. At the same time, your careful consideration of our current situation (whether we are indeed in a lylo or not) is noted. I acknowledge that you could, in fact, be pro-town, but to list players as scummy without any reasoning, and then defend one suspicion after being questioned about it with a faulty case just doesn't sit well with me.

[kloud1516]

I would also like to say that I support the idea of massclaiming today, based on my reasoning from post 388, as well as the case presented by Jahudo in 411.

I do not like the fact that we continue to go back and forth about whether or not we are in a lylo situation. If there is this much uncertainty about it, then I feel it becomes a necessity to claim, if not only to figure out this mess. I think it would be foolish of us to simply hand the game to scum by going along with the idea that we

could

be in a lylo when we can do something about it.

Would you all be in favor of voting on it? Just treat it like a vote on a player, and if there is a majority for on side or the other, that is what we will do for today?

[Jahudo]

Jahudo has questioned on subjects without giving his own opinion on them. This may or may not be an accurate claim, and so if I have made a mistake please tell me otherwise

What about the Dukes and pacman interactions? post 285 and post 327 for example.

I understand that it can only help if everyone gives they're suspect list now. I want to look at wolf, kmd, and poro a little closer because my reads aren't as strong on them and then I'll post a suspect list. Right now I don't have a good read on anyone as scummy so if I can't find anything, I'll support the massclaim.

@wolf: What do you mean? Do you think a night action from last night might affect today's voting?[/i]

[kloud1516]

Jahudo has questioned on subjects without giving his own opinion on them. This may or may not be an accurate claim, and so if I have made a mistake please tell me otherwise

What about the Dukes and pacman interactions? post 285 and post 327 for example.

Hence the "most of the time" bit at the beginning of that paragraph.

[wolframnhart]

@wolf: What do you mean? Do you think a night action from last night might affect today's voting?

that is exactly what i mean, but because i am not 100% sure i am hesitant to say what it is out right because it could end up being pure speculation, that and it would mean fully trusting another player (not me).

[Porochaz]

Sorry had my parents visiting over the weekend am back now, still dead against the massclaim. Read over the last page when uni is over.