Mini 681 - Mish Mash Mafia - THE END!

[RestFermata]

Oh yeah, you're right Reread that. For some reason I thought the mod had said if ANY of the three mafia were declared safe the game would be over. So I'll have to look at it from a different angle now.

@Caboose: Figured it would raise a few eyebrows, but I feel more comfortable casting a vote on myself than on anyone else, period. If a wagon on someone else I think is town forms, of course I'll change my vote, but we're in lylo and desperate times call for desperate measures. If you think it's scummy, I'm sorry, but it stands.

[ShadowGirl]

Interesting. I'm more sure of my suspicions now. Expect (actually serious) a big post once I do a complete dissection of the thread.

[sekinj]

*holds breath*

[Knight of Cydonia]

We've been expecting a complete re-read for some time, SG. Make it good.

[ShadowGirl]

Depends on what you mean by good. My... somewhat crazy theories? Perhaps. Up to page seven~

[ShadowGirl]

Up to page 20, but first a response:

SG is another one I'm iffy about. I know my participation D2 was sub-par, but I was confused about game mechanics and didn't want to do anything rash accidentally, whereas SG seemed to be pretending to participate by playing mod. She was posting continually but not as a player. It seemed like she was just letting everyone duke it out round her as she watched. I don't feel very comfortable with that. Lurking in plain sight is more of a scumtell than true lurking for me. I especially didn't like that she asked for prods on certain people. She was the one who needed a prod--a participation prod, not a posting prod. Not a fan at all as of D2.

Do anything rash accidentally? What was there to do that was rash? We could bid, and then we could attack. We could retract our attacks. I was posting as a player - I was bidding. You and I did nearly played the same way. You came in and bid once or twice, was outbid and let it be and considered that to be playing and I could say that you just as well wanted to let others fight amongst themselves. I think you just wanted to stay out of the spotlight. I have in no way been parading my participation in either days as good. I was being helpful in the way that I could.

[RestFermata]

It's a fair accusation, SG. I tend to lurk a lot. Basically I bite off more than I can chew when it comes to games. I just asked for replacement in two of them, though, so it should be better.

[ShadowGirl]

Ha, tell me about it! I'm in five games at that moment. Reread the complete thread, fine tuning the post. I promise it will be up today or tommorow morning (noon-ish, probably.) I know I have been low in posting, but I was concentrating on a game that was near deadline (then kept having players flake... and flake... with no replacements. x_x)

[MafiaSSK]

MafiaSSK - are you going to anything this game?

Trying to contribute.

[lord_hur]

MafiaSSK - are you going to anything this game?

Trying to contribute.

And failing thoroughly.

[ShadowGirl]

Caboose - Sekinj - RestFermata scum team
[I have seperate sections for each player, but some may be larger due to conversations overlapping in other sections.]

---

Sekinj:

If elected, I will kill sekinj.

If elected, I will kill sekinj.

Why?!

It seems like a very frantic response, as if you have reason to be scared for your life.

Why do you oppose binding?

I don't oppose stating suspicions, but I don't think we shoudl tie the hands of the executioner either.

I just don't agree with trying to defeat the theme part of any theme game. For me it falls into the category of trying to outguess the mod.

Seeing as how there is a good chance of you being elected, you don't want very much responsibility for a town flip.

If they decided to go with the town, and a townie gets killed... well bad luck...

Same with this post.

I agree, the more poeple that participate the better. I dont' think the excutioner should be AUTO killed if they are wrong, but the situation would bear attention.

Covering all bases if one of your scum buddies turns out to be the town's preferred kill, and you decided to kill a townie instead...

Caboose – Was the first to suggest an organized way to treat today, dealt with a lot of weak attacks since his idea wasn’t chosen.

In your final post of day one giving insight to what you think of people - he is the only one you don't have an opinion on, but merely summarize what he's done.

Vote/Save: Rest

She hasn't posted as much as others, but she seems to be the next townies person in my eyes.

I believe scum are going for the perfect, and as such sekinj (perceived to be one of the more pro-town players in the game) suggests RF, and with the support of others who believe her to be town would likely follow her onto this wagon (or her own.) If RF gets saved in the second round, then the scum team are in a far better position, for only sekinj then needs to get saved and scum would win.

---

Caboose:

Most of the quotes are in other sections of this post. However,

I find it odd how hostile he is being by my and hur's comments on page 25, even though he is safe.

---

RestFermata:
Described in previous post (630) about her play on day two which seems very much like she was hanging up, and the accusation almost seems hypocritical.

How can he continue to attack Caboose now that he is cleared as town? If Caboose was mafia, the game would be over. We've entered the next voting stage, so he needs to lose the tunnel vision and look for other pairs. Even if the mod's a bastard and the game is over but we don't know it yet, we HAVE to consider Caboose town because if not, there's no point because everything we're doing is useless anyway.

Trying to completely clear him even though he's already been saved? What's the point? Also, a way to stop people from looking at connections if we assume him to be town.

---

Dead people:
Because of the mechanics of the games, it would be key for scum to keep around people who don't believe them to be scum or scummy.

At this point, I will not vote Caboose, KoC or Letsbefriends.
Caboose his idea can be seen as WIFOM to vote him.
KoC has really strange posts.
Letsbefriends is again WIFOM. Does he say he doesn't want to kill to appear pro-town or does he really mean it.

At this point from what I've seen, I'm having doubts between Sekinj and RestFermata. Therefor I'll

Vote Sekinj

as I can agree with her thoughts most of the time.

Back from my long WE. Wow you guys moved that thing fast.

After my catching up, two players stood out as towniest in my eyes : Mana_Ku for giving the most pro-town analysis, and sekinj for being the player whose ideas I agree the most with.

The two are pretty close, but I'm going to

Vote : Mana_Ku

because she came up slightly on top.

Also, seeing as you're hur's second top choice, if Mana is gone she would be in support of you.

Vote: Mana_Ku, as she seems to be the only person here with two working eyes and some brain cells left dedicated to reading comprehension.

Once again, killing off the person someone else thinks as the most pro-town.

Mana_Ku – throws the phrase “WIFOM” around too much for my taste. Not everything is wifom, and even then that doesn’t discount it completely. Other than that seems pro-town and willing to explore arguments in order to understand them, even if she doesn’t agree with them, which is a good balance.

A very positive comment, and is one of the two people you view as pro-town: the other is RF. It seems almost too convient that she's dead the following morning - with this comment it wouldn't set any suspicion onto you.

RestFermata – good discussion and analysis in 2 of 10 posts. Now that we are well into the game I would like to see her most recent longer posts continue.

---

Clear dislike for Sekinj and Caboose, and killing him off in the first night would be much too obvious - however, they both pile on a total of 120 attack on him on day two, ensuring he doesn't make it to the next round.

Unvote

I voted Mans Ku because she was the most pro-town.

Vote; Caboose

I think he's the scummiest and it looks like he has a reasonbly good scumdar.

In the game elect the executioner, the executed can make a vengeful game?

Catch up. I voted Mana Ku in my first post.

Lynch: Sekinj

For blatant misrepresenting.

In the game elect the executioner, the executed can make a vengeful game?

Catch up. I voted Mana Ku in my first post.

Lynch: Sekinj

For blatant misrepresenting.

Ha! oh that is funny. Are you REALLY saying that you read the game and THEN put your vote on Caboose becuase you thought he was scummy?? So you WANT to elect a scummy executioner? you are not making ANY sense.

How do you explain that I voted Mana Ku first?

I shouldn't of went for your lynch though.

Lynch; Caboose

---

Also, both of them (Caboose and RF) were on the wagon to elect sekinj.

sekinj (7): Mana_Ku, orangepenguin, ShadowGirl, letsbefriends, Caboose, RestFermata, Knight of Cydonia

---

Why I don't believe KoC could be part of the scum team:

I refuse to state who I would kill, because as soon as the scum know who each of us would kill, they can and more than likely will attempt to steer lynches onto town players who would kill town.

Vote Caboose

for suggesting it.

I don't believe he would try and get his scum buddy lynched on D1, as well, the response is of someone pro-town.

"I see you have found your way to the arena", says the voice over
"The rules are simple, each player has a vote, vote for the person who you wish to determine the dead person, unfortunately on the chopping board there is a gun, with a single bullet, upon the person being chosen to die another will be shot."

Wait, I misread that. I think we choose the executioner who kills someone. Then the player that dies get a kill. In that case

Unvote

.

If elected, I will bind myself to the target of Knight.

Nor would Caboose want to kill one of his scum buddies (seeing as he was a likely candidate).

In a normal game, scum would press a lynch on anyone town, just because it's Day 1, and short of an immense fail, it's fairly hard to find scum.
In this game, if people do what sekinj and caboose have been suggesting, the scum could theoretically make someone an executioner who wants to kill a pro-town player who had said they would revenge-kill another pro-town player.
If people follow sekinj and Caboose' advice to announce who they would kill if given the chance, scum could theoretically engineeer a double town kill. That's why I don't like it. I'm only repeating myself because you idiots aren't listening.

Nor would he openly oppose both of them.

I don't like how KoC said he was happy to put Caboose and sekinj in "for now"...as if he has reservations about it. News flash, KoC. You can't take it back later. And if we save the wrong person, it's over. So I think you should be pretty damn sure.

&

I find it weird that KoC flung some crap attacks at me D1 and then goes to dropping the hammer on me D3.

As I said, I think scum would be going for the perfect, and I don't believe they would start attacking of their scum buddies.
&

I'm not a fan of KoC's self-lynch vote D1 either. His attitude isn't my favorite, but I'd feel just a tad more comfortable saving him than MSSK or SG. But anyway, I obviously support a RestFermata wagon--for me, the safest idea.

Vote: RestFermata

Once again adding suspicion to him - I believe scum are going for the perfect, seeing as how two of their group (sekinj and Caboose) are either saved or nearly there. Now, being lylo, the scum only need one more townie on the wagon to save someone if they are all on it, or two townies if they do not self vote. In the case of RF, who is not held in high regard as Caboose and Sekinj, would need all the votes she can get. And I'm not a fan of her disliking KoC's self lynch vote while she is doing a self-save vote.
&

If sekinj is scum, then she's playing a really good game right now because I don't see anything scummy about her play. KoC, on the other hand, has made some scummy moves Day 1, which includes attacking me for something not scummy.

You are another player who has been perceived to be pro-town and throwing support for sekinj would possibly get people to vote along with her on RF.

---

Here's all I thought of off the top of my head from my one reread.

[RestFermata]

Oh, come on. It's not like as mafia I would have really believed that I could "clear" Caboose by lying about the game mechanics when any shmuck (except me, apparently) can look back at Niv's post and see that it's not true. I don't think anyone's going to take my word for it, especially when some people are obviously going to contest that. The only two options you should consider are

A. I was genuinely confused about the game mechanics
B. I am playing dumb.

But I take offense to your accusation that I am trying to "completely clear" Caboose. I am not so stupid that I would think that would work.

In a post that you yourself quoted, I also showed ignorance of the game mechanics:

And if we save the wrong person, it's over.

So I think that accusation is pretty weak sauce.

Basically everything else in your post seems to be examples of me thinking that sekinj and Caboose are town. I do think they're town. I guess sekinj thinks I'm town, though I'm not too sure about Caboose. Yes, and you're right that I believe I need all the votes that I can get, because I and I alone know that I am a safe choice for the town, though one unlikely to be chosen. That is a nulltell. Both scum and town could find it beneficial to self-vote in my situation.

There's also the hypocrisy accusation. I will acknowledge that I did not participate D2, but it was for reasons of caution. And I see now that I was right in my fear that it would be "very easy to hammer". Empking got absolutely pummeled into the ground. I think that it only would have taken a few players to do it, and I don't think anyone was explicitly aware they were "dropping the hammer" when they attacked him. Although that's another great mask for scum to hide behind, by the way...I'll have to check that out. You can't be sure of my motives, but I can't be sure of yours, either. I'm not pleased with my own D2 actions or lack thereof, but nor am I pleased with yours.

Beyond that, I guess it's best to let sekinj and Caboose defend themselves. I don't see this as a wholly honest accusation--it makes a lot of assumptions and assumptions upon assumptions, i.e. the scum are RF, sekinj, and Caboose, they are "going for the perfect" because two of them are already saved, because the scum are RF, sekinj, and Caboose--but I would like to hear from them about it.

P.S. A self-lynch vote is much stranger than a self-save vote. I believe that KoC's self-lynch vote could have been to set up a persona that is willing to self-sacrifice, which seems more pro-town. It was also completely unnecessary--he could have just voted to lynch OP. Seems contrived. A self-save vote is different. I'm not saying it's good, but like I said, we're in LYLO. I think any pro-town player should be willing to vote or hammer themselves in this situation, especially if it looks like the wagon will shift onto another player that is of course riskier, because all other alignments are unknown. Scum would want to do the same thing, of course, so in my mind it's a nulltell. It's definitely not going to inspire anyone to buy me a bouquet of flowers, but KoC's self-lynch vote looks like he was fishing for some sort of attention.

[Caboose]

Caboose:

Most of the quotes are in other sections of this post. However,

I find it odd how hostile he is being by my and hur's comments on page 25, even though he is safe.

Seriously? Is this it? And I get labelled because of this? Being defensive =/= scumtell. You should know this by now, SG.

Clear dislike for Sekinj and Caboose, and killing him off in the first night would be much too obvious - however, they both pile on a total of 120 attack on him on day two, ensuring he doesn't make it to the next round.

LOL. This has to be the clumsiest attempt at vote meta that I've ever seen.

You are another player who has been perceived to be pro-town and throwing support for sekinj would possibly get people to vote along with her on RF.

Read my posts before just spouting random stuff and say things that are, you know, true. I have no support for the RF camp right now and I don't have any support for the sekinj one either. Yet you try to frame me like I do.

Here's who I think the scumteam is:

SG - SSK - KoC

All three of them have made blatant crap attacks on me in the course of this game. KoC's came D1 when he tried to frame my organization idea as scummy. That's called strawmanning and that

is

a scumtell. SSK makes a crap attack on me, myseriously disappears and then lurks, only posting to make sure he's not prodded. SG's accusations are a joke. She tries to make defensiveness into a scumtell and then gives all this crappy vote meta to try to frame me. Did the idea that maybe the scumteam sat back and watched us screw up cross her mind at all? That leads to WIFOM, which is why raw vote meta is crap, and that's the basis of her labelling.

[sekinj]

SG - it seems most of your arguements come from the assumption that the scum are goign for a perfect? that seems like a terrible assumptions to make. I really don't know how or why you could ever assume something liek that.

[ShadowGirl]

Don't have a chance to respond to it all, but I'll comment on one response.

All three of them have made blatant crap attacks on me in the course of this game.

That's what makes all scum? That's your only connection?

What do I have to gain at the moment from making a case against you when you're already saved?

[Caboose]

That's what makes all scum? That's your only connection?

Yes, and it's better than all the "connections" that you clumsily made.

What do I have to gain at the moment from making a case against you when you're already saved?

Trying to crack out the WIFOM?
The thing you have to gain most is to frame me as scum to make everyone ignore me and start second guessing themselves.

[ShadowGirl]

Yes, and it's better than all the "connections" that you clumsily made.

What, how is that three of us attacked you in any way better that you were on the wagon to elect Sekinj and that of Emp's?

Trying to crack out the WIFOM?
The thing you have to gain most is to frame me as scum to make everyone ignore me and start second guessing themselves.

It's still a valid question.
Frame you... but you're already saved.

[Caboose]

Alright, you want to play WIFOM, let's play.

Since Emp was acting scummy yesterday, all you had to do was sit back and watch Emp get lynched and then attack the people on Emp's bandwagon the next day because they were on the wagon for Emp's lynch. Sound like the good old "I told you so" statement. Pretty good scum tactic if you ask me.

Wrong =/= scum. Being on the wagon for a townie lynch is not in and of itself a scumtell. But attacking others for being on a townie lynch wagon is more of a scumtell. And since most of us don't know sekinj's alignment, being on her wagon is a nulltell, unless you have some extra info.

I'm quite annoyed at you labelling me, especially since I did nothing wrong. You're reaching for a mislynch today by misrepresenting my stance on RF, by trying to warp defensiveness into a scumtell, and by trying to warp being on a townie wagon into a scumtell.

I remember Tovarish/farside in the beginning of the game defended me on D1. Farside also called Empking out on D2. Farside turned up town. I want you to explain that one.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Huh. THat is quite possibly the biggest pile of crap and WIFOM I have ever been forced to read, SG. I mean, there's big, and then there's BIG, and then, making that look like a dwarf who's been half-destroyed by acid, there's your "case". Jeez.

[ShadowGirl]

No time to explain my crazyness today.

@KoC: Then, who do you think is scum?

[sekinj]

SG - you promise a re-read, promise a re-read, finally getting around to making a crap wifom case, and then don't have time to respond? I'm not impressed.

[ShadowGirl]

Two of my games are lylo. I have homework due tommorow. Response tommorow. You're welcome.

[MafiaSSK]

Caboose:

Most of the quotes are in other sections of this post. However,

I find it odd how hostile he is being by my and hur's comments on page 25, even though he is safe.

Seriously? Is this it? And I get labelled because of this? Being defensive =/= scumtell. You should know this by now, SG.

Clear dislike for Sekinj and Caboose, and killing him off in the first night would be much too obvious - however, they both pile on a total of 120 attack on him on day two, ensuring he doesn't make it to the next round.

LOL. This has to be the clumsiest attempt at vote meta that I've ever seen.

You are another player who has been perceived to be pro-town and throwing support for sekinj would possibly get people to vote along with her on RF.

Read my posts before just spouting random stuff and say things that are, you know, true. I have no support for the RF camp right now and I don't have any support for the sekinj one either. Yet you try to frame me like I do.

Here's who I think the scumteam is:

SG - SSK - KoC

All three of them have made blatant crap attacks on me in the course of this game. KoC's came D1 when he tried to frame my organization idea as scummy. That's called strawmanning and that

is

a scumtell. SSK makes a crap attack on me, myseriously disappears and then lurks, only posting to make sure he's not prodded. SG's accusations are a joke. She tries to make defensiveness into a scumtell and then gives all this crappy vote meta to try to frame me. Did the idea that maybe the scumteam sat back and watched us screw up cross her mind at all? That leads to WIFOM, which is why raw vote meta is crap, and that's the basis of her labelling.

[/quote]
How was my attack crap again?

[lord_hur]

@SG : I actually like a couple isolated observations of yours, but seriously, that's a LOT of assumptions. Especially that "scum not attacking each other" thing : scum can bus each other you know, and nearly every game has examples of it.


And about MafiaSSK : my heart nearly stopped when I say him seemingly posting more than one line, then I realized that he just made a mistake with quotes.... Seriously, I have no idea how to handle this : how do you determine whether a person is scum or not if he is not playing ?

[Max]

Confirming I'm still here, happy with all the activity