Mini 701 - That's a Wrap! (Game Over)

[mykonian]

we all love you for it

I got also a few things that make me think that the masons are true, but TDC's post says it a lot better. I don't believe they are scum. Now is the time for you to play and find scum. You have little to fear now, only nightkills. With a doctor in the setup, you could become pretty important.

[mykonian]

One moment, you have a very active game, right from the start, the other moment everybody is gone...

[SpyreX]

Well the avenues of discussion kind of hit a halt with the mason claim.

I'm willing to believe it at this point. There's still too many ways for them to get busted as scum. And they did say mod confirmed so there isn't much wiggle room as far as later.

In the mean time.

Vote Ecto.

We're back to the "old" hash with this.

I'd like to hear from some of the more lurker-y types as well.

[Ectomancer]

Old hash vote acknowledged.

[mykonian]

Do we really have no other idea's then vote ecto, or vote vollkan? As good as it started, voting for the major players is still kind of random.

[Rage]

Activity List:

(player's name) (date and time of last post)

Mana_Ku (Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:21 pm)

orangepenguin (Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:11 am)
ortolan (Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:06 am)
mykonian (Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:50 pm)
springlullaby (Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:15 am)
Ectomancer (Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:39 pm)
vollkan (Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:29 pm)
SpyreX (Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:50 pm)
mrfixij (Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:46 am)
TDC (Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:01 am)

Prodding Mana_Ku 'cause we haven't heard from you in a while.

Vote Count - Day 1 - As of Post 165

With 10 alive, 6 votes is majority.

Mama_Ku - 0 ()
orangepenguin - 0 ()
ortolan - 0 ()
mykonian - 0 ()
springlullaby - 0 ()

Ectomancer - 3 (Spyrex, ortolan, orangepenguin)

vollkan - 0 ()
SpyreX - 2 (mrfixij, Ectomancer)
mrfixij - 0 ()
TDC - 0 ()

Not Voting - 5 (springlullaby, vollkan, mykonian, TDC, Mana_Ku)

[mykonian]

TDC is a doublevoter?

[Rage]

I forgot to remove his name from the previous vote count when I was going through the list and he voted for orangepenguin, and then unvoted.

Removed.

[Ectomancer]

Do we really have no other idea's then vote ecto, or vote vollkan? As good as it started, voting for the major players is still kind of random.

I don't believe I have yet advocated lynching Vollkan.

If we assume the two O's are town, then scum would have known it. Not recalling who brought it up at the time, I would wonder about quick votes on the wagon, or of course, the person who first complained that the wagon was "building too fast".

[mrfixij]

Do we really have no other idea's then vote ecto, or vote vollkan? As good as it started, voting for the major players is still kind of random.

I don't believe I have yet advocated lynching Vollkan.

If we assume the two O's are town, then scum would have known it. Not recalling who brought it up at the time, I would wonder about quick votes on the wagon, or of course, the person who first complained that the wagon was "building too fast".

How would scum have known that they're masons? IIRC, momentum halted as soon as the mason claim came to be. I think this course of thought will only yield a WIFOM, which I'm not a big fan of following. I'm still not a fan of Spyre's appeasement strategy and his counter-aggression against Ecto's fast play.

[SpyreX]

How would scum have known that they're masons? IIRC, momentum halted as soon as the mason claim came to be. I think this course of thought will only yield a WIFOM, which I'm not a big fan of following. I'm still not a fan of Spyre's appeasement strategy and his counter-aggression against Ecto's fast play.

Appeasement strategy? Please explain a bit more.

[mrfixij]

The appeasement was part of the reasoning for my vote initially. You seemed to be trying to buddy up to both Vollkan and I. At this point, I'm restating the case I made initially, and summarizing it in case anyone doesn't remember.

[mykonian]

Do we really have no other idea's then vote ecto, or vote vollkan? As good as it started, voting for the major players is still kind of random.

I don't believe I have yet advocated lynching Vollkan.

If we assume the two O's are town, then scum would have known it. Not recalling who brought it up at the time, I would wonder about quick votes on the wagon, or of course, the person who first complained that the wagon was "building too fast".

This is where orto would react with, If you do one thing, you are scum, if you don't do it, you are scum, and if you keep quiet, you are lurking scum. I have given my reasons why I thought a quick bandwagon on a small reason was wrong and why I wouldn't participate in it. Did you like them? If not, explain why, and maybe I can clear things up.

[SpyreX]

The appeasement was part of the reasoning for my vote initially. You seemed to be trying to buddy up to both Vollkan and I. At this point, I'm restating the case I made initially, and summarizing it in case anyone doesn't remember.

I have mentioned you and Volk together one whole time. Saying that in the discussion (in contrast to Ecto) I saw both of you behaving neutrally.

Since then yes, more than once, I have said I find Volk's play to be pro town. I have not said the same thing about yours, nor would I. There is no connection in my head between the two of you.

I still think that SpyreX needs to address the contradiction I pointed out prior, how is ecto scummy for pursuing a lynch based on what Spyre deems no more than policy than I am for that same reasoning behind a vote? However, I also think Orto is digging himself a deep grave. At this point, it could very well be an elementary slipup is turning him into a lynchalicious, but a few things I'd like to know from him before I place a vote.

I dont think I addressed this.

Where, where did I say that what ecto is doing is policy? Where did ecto say what they were doing is policy?

[mrfixij]

This post was put together to question the motivations of Spyrex, who I believe to both be buddying up, and 'taking sides' in an argument that he believes could result in the lynch of one or both of us. If you need an extrapolation, it is my suspicion that he could be scum that was simply looking for the first crack between two town players (this theory is dependent upon Vollkan being town of course), and then Spyrex is simply making himself the wedge to widen the crack into a lynch.

This is cute on some level. If either of you got lynched solely on the grounds of this discussion then the town might as well throw in the towel. However, what comes out of it might cause, in fact, a new and directly-relevant discussion of

why

the first discussion went the way it did.

Am I really buddying up to Volkan? Of course not. I lean town on him because of what his discussion is bringing to light - all of my comments have been directed at what he is saying in context of this discussion. I tend to think, at this moment, he is a town pushing for discussion versus a scum looking for a gambit to trap a town in for a lynch.

This brings up an interesting point. First off, Spyre makes a slight ad hominem/degradation of the validity of Ecto's point, but after doing so says that a lynch which is fundamentally based on a difference in viewpoint of policy would be a nail in the coffin for town. Which is funny because Spyre places no suspicion on me when I say that my vote on Voll is because of policy.

This is the big issue I've had. The fundamental arguement at said point in the game was based on Il nya de pas de hors texte. A disagreement on terms and mafia theory. It was eventually resolved, but that doesn't excuse your condemnation of a policy lynch without involving me in your suspicion.

[SpyreX]

This post was put together to question the motivations of Spyrex, who I believe to both be buddying up, and 'taking sides' in an argument that he

believes could result in the lynch of one or both of us

. If you need an extrapolation, it is my suspicion that he could be scum that was simply looking for the first crack between two town players (this theory is dependent upon Vollkan being town of course), and then Spyrex is simply making himself the wedge to widen the crack into a lynch.

This is cute on some level. If either of you got lynched

solely on the grounds of this discussion

then the town might as well throw in the towel. However, what comes out of it might cause, in fact, a new and directly-relevant discussion of why the first discussion went the way it did.

Am I really buddying up to Volkan? Of course not. I lean town on him because of what his discussion is bringing to light - all of my comments have been directed at what he is saying in context of this discussion. I tend to think, at this moment, he is a town pushing for discussion versus a scum looking for a gambit to trap a town in for a lynch.

This brings up an interesting point. First off, Spyre makes a slight ad hominem/degradation of the validity of Ecto's point, but after doing so says that a lynch which is fundamentally based on a difference in viewpoint of policy would be a nail in the coffin for town. Which is funny because Spyre places no suspicion on me when I say that my vote on Voll is because of policy.

This is the big issue I've had. The fundamental arguement at said point in the game was based on Il nya de pas de hors texte. A disagreement on terms and mafia theory. It was eventually resolved, but that doesn't excuse your condemnation of a policy lynch without involving me in your suspicion.

Again, where does Ecto say that the play was policy?

I've been very clear about this - the whole "enemy loves confusion" and further statements set a tone; not one of a policy lynch but of "Volkan, who is causing said confusion, is the enemy."

This aggression in and of itself wasn't the kicker. When combined with the 180 on the issue and the attack on me for it was.

Just because I'm not voting for you doesn't mean I'm not suspicious. However, when looking at your interaction versus Ecto's in that mess I find ecto's play to be far more suspicious.

[Ectomancer]

Do we really have no other idea's then vote ecto, or vote vollkan? As good as it started, voting for the major players is still kind of random.

I don't believe I have yet advocated lynching Vollkan.

If we assume the two O's are town, then scum would have known it. Not recalling who brought it up at the time, I would wonder about quick votes on the wagon, or of course, the person who first complained that the wagon was "building too fast".

How would scum have known that they're masons? IIRC, momentum halted as soon as the mason claim came to be. I think this course of thought will only yield a WIFOM, which I'm not a big fan of following. I'm still not a fan of Spyre's appeasement strategy and his counter-aggression against Ecto's fast play.

Where did I say that scum would have known they were Masons? I said if we assume they are town. They both looked bad, though Ortolan looked the worse. It is not a far out assumption that scum would have been quick to jump on the wagon,

or

seasoned scum could instead be the "hey, this is building too fast" voice of reason.

I realize it is about me, but havent you beat that horse to glue? You wondered where we might find scum, so I pointed out areas we might look. Just wonder why you got a bit defensive and then went back to old hash.

[mykonian]

How about the scum that kept quiet and didn't talk about it? the lurkers, or the active lurkers, the people that don't talk about the important topic, afraid to show there allignment. Now you can easily say: everybody that reacted was wrong. Indeed, I was just as wrong the people that were on the bandwagon. I thought orto scummy too, who didn't? But within one page bringing a person at l-2, that is barely town. As long as there is no deadline close, you got to discuss who you want to lynch, not just do it quick "I think orto scummy because of that awful vote". Or even better "he doesn't defend his point good", and still better "now he gets under pressure, he retracts his point"

Kinda obvious isn't it? His vote was weak, and when people pointed this out, THERE WAS NO DEFENSE. He knew it too. So what does a logical player do? He says:"sorry guy's I was wrong...". And some people manage to make that a scumtell. He would be so scum when he had actively defended his point, and not retracted it.

I know the above is WIFOM, but thinking about it is way better then screaming "OBV SCUM, vote orto".

I know it better, if I said this earlier, the only thing scum would do was screaming: "WIFOM, let him answer for himself, 2 obv scum!", to completely deny the point.

But after this happened, like Ecto said, we should look at what happened around it, and just blindly go back to the big players, the people that actually made this game the first pages. It is too easy, and has little basis. I know it isn't always right, maybe even wrong, but I like active players better then lurkers.

[mrfixij]

Again, where does Ecto say that the play was policy?

I've been very clear about this - the whole "enemy loves confusion" and further statements set a tone; not one of a policy lynch but of "Volkan, who is causing said confusion, is the enemy."

This aggression in and of itself wasn't the kicker. When combined with the 180 on the issue and the attack on me for it was.

Just because I'm not voting for you doesn't mean I'm not suspicious. However, when looking at your interaction versus Ecto's in that mess I find ecto's play to be far more suspicious.

It seems rather obvious to me that the case against Vollkan was a continuation of the self-vote, and later a disagreement over "gut" and whether or not it's acceptable in arguement. I don't know about you, but I consider that kind of case/argument policy.

@ ecto: my bad, I misunderstood your pronoun use at 1:17 AM. I had assumed that you mean "it" as in the mason claim, since scum knowing who is town hardly seems worthy of mention.

The second paragraph confuses me, could you elaborate as to who and what exactly you are addressing?

@ Mykonian: Your last paragraph is also confusing, I can't help but feel that you made a typo there and skewed what you meant to say, because I don't get it.

[SpyreX]

I never saw a case. Thats part of what I'm getting at. From the beginning it was pushing to push. It was aggression hoping for a snap.

Why do I not think you and Ecto have the same problem? Because you didn't. Your discussion with Volk WAS a policy discussion. I never got that vibe from Ecto.

I'll go back and reread and post something again about it tomorrow, again.

The second paragraph was - it wasn't just the aggression on Volkan. It was the fact Ecto pulled a 180 on Ecto and then came out with a very weak attack on me when, as was apparent, I was very unsure about his alignment. I think he even mentions pre-emptive OMGUS somewhere.

[TDC]

They've claimed masons one page ago.

How did you guys miss that?

I know for a fact that ortolan's wagon is wrong, which I am not going to elaborate on at this point

Translation: I'm mason with ortolan.

ortolan: What's your read on orangepenguin?

Translation: Is that correct, ortolan?

100% town

Translation: Yes.

I find it very unlikely that they are gambling scum.

I meant this question.
Vollkan: Have you noticed this dialogue at the time it happened?
If yes: Why did you keep pushing ortolan? (Don't tell me you did that because you wanted to educate him or something, you clearly let him fall like a hot potato when they claimed

again

.)
If no: Why did you not wonder about my unvote?

Same question to Ectomancer (though he wasn't on his wagon and did not as much to push ortolan).

[mykonian]

@ Mykonian: Your last paragraph is also confusing, I can't help but feel that you made a typo there and skewed what you meant to say, because I don't get it.

Could be. I'm not very good on English, so maybe I stated it a bit weird. Could you quote the part you don't understand, then I can try say it in different words.

[Ectomancer]

I saw the exchange, thought ortolan was calling OP 100% town because he followed him, saw your unvote, wondered about it, considered asking you about it, decided to leave it until later, went on defending myself against a couple "me too" voters until the full claim. I still remain responsible for my defense, even if I had decided the attacks were from very probable masons, especially as baseless as they were.

[vollkan]

I don't believe I have yet advocated lynching Vollkan.

No, you haven't. Debate =/= Lynch advocacy

Since then yes, more than once, I have said I find Volk's play to be pro town.

Two questions:
1) Have you read any of my scum games?
2) What in my play seems protown to you? (I should declare here that I am asking this partly for in-game reasons - and partly for meta research purposes)

Vollkan: Have you noticed this dialogue at the time it happened?
If yes: Why did you keep pushing ortolan? (Don't tell me you did that because you wanted to educate him or something, you clearly let him fall like a hot potato when they claimed again.)
If no: Why did you not wonder about my unvote?

Yes. My reasons are simple: Firstly, nothing confirms Orto is not scum (I doubt he is tremendously). Secondly, being town doesn't prevent him being completely wrong on things. Even in the post where I unvoted, contrary to your assertion that I dropped him like a hot potato, I made a demand of him:

What was it, specifically, that Ecto said or did which you found sufficiently scummy to justify a vote?

[Rage]

Activity List:

(player's name) (date and time of last post)

Mana_Ku (Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:21 pm)

orangepenguin (Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:11 am)

ortolan (Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:06 am)

mykonian (Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:30 am)

springlullaby (Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:15 am)

Ectomancer (Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:41 pm)
vollkan (Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:26 pm)
SpyreX (Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:47 am)
mrfixij (Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:28 pm)
TDC (Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:15 am)

Will replace

Mana_Ku

tomorrow. I have not heard from him/her since prodding. Come to think of it, the last time I've heard from him/her was when he/she said that he/she got a little behind.

Will prod

ortolan

and

springlullaby

tomorrow.