i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[tris]

much of frog doesnt make sense to me. his read of ythan is ???. his says gamma is scum a lot, but he hasn't said why. his princess vote in 145 is bad (in the bad reasoning sense). like, how is that an overaction? on that note actually, i'd like to hear frog's response to princess's arguments in there.

also, why did u vote princess?

of the votes on frog, menno's feels the weakest. in general, they seemed reasonable.

[tris]

oh, forgot to finish off with, i haven't decided if frog is scummy or just the kind of person who makes weird arguemnts i dont get

[tris]

This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative. I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated. Consider me sold on a quickhammer here if the game comes to that.

VOTE: Princess

ironically, this response is an overreaction. attacking reasoning is often the first step towards figuring out if something is scum motivated.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Using reason will not usually help you correctly determine frog's alignment ime

[tris]

hrmph

[HighPrincessErinys]

It's not just a 'gimmick', y'know. Also, ehh? If you wanna point fingers for first posts then maybe you should add like, basically everyone. Of course a first post is going to be "safe" from "scum PoV" when first posts 99 times out of 100 are essentially "hi" with or without an RV attached. Lycanfire's too. It makes sense half of these reads got dropped because they are, ESPECIALLY flimsy for page 3, but either way it's just Eh to this one. Frogster's 86 jumps out to it as more immediately wacky.

This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative. I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated. Consider me sold on a quickhammer here if the game comes to that.

VOTE: Princess

This being an 'overreaction' is kinda relative to the individual. But more importantly it's kinda funny you're like "Ahh I got you!!" because this one poked at your reasoning without attaching if it thinks you're scum or not for it. Even though it did. You were a solid "Eh" after all that. You're very very confident in general about some of these reads, which is kinda weird considering one of them is Ythan who... capitalized a word. Very strange play in general.

[Save The Dragons]

tris what do you think of imaginality's entrance

[tris]

tris what do you think of imaginality's entrance

pretty weak tbh

[Morning Tweet]

This feels lightly scummy. Are you saying town!frog wouldn't be scumreading you (like burden of proof)? To me it seems too early to believe that

no, it was more like he immediately shut down my line of thought without seeing if there was more to it than "he flipped his read,"

since I think changing your reads can either be towny or scummy depending on the situation.

But at the same time, 86 could also conceivably come from Town!Frogs because I have been quick to read him right in the past.

I think there's a lot of nuance to how one changes their reads so I agree with the bolded emphatically

Also I see now.

Was your Gamma vote serious, MT?

No I hadn't read yet

oh like I have something in my role that interferers with investigative roles so don't target me with those please

Interested in this little out(?). Want to say it feels towny to go "hey investigatives don't waste an action" but that's easily something scum could do too as a bluff, especially when this entire setup is one giant question mark in terms of mechanics. This one will be keeping an eye on you.

Which one do you think it is?

It's fairly meta for town to claim miller immediately, and I think there's a high probability of negative town utility in a big setup like this. I'm erring on the side of trusting at this stage

[Morning Tweet]

idk about Frogster, backing out on tris so fast might be scum theatre but I can't say I scumread him otherwise.

Did anything give you the impression that frog and tris were scum theatreing, besides that read and retraction?

idk about Frogster, backing out on tris so fast might be scum theatre but I can't say I scumread him otherwise.

Oh come off it, assuming tris is town, then as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them.

I feel like you could have done any number of things, yes. I get why CSF saw an overall pattern of non-commital reads, I don't get how Kitty sees scum theatre because of the one read on tris.

I don't see where Kitty is explaining how this interaction looked like scum to them.

I have like 4 scum reads. Off the top of my head they're tris for asking some awkward looking questions, Ythan specifically for 62, the doll gimmick player has a first post I think feels safe to make from a scum PoV, and the lycanfire player has a first post followed by a second post which I think are safe from a scum PoV.

I'll read back and clarify on tris I guess: 37, 55, 64 I think can be kinda scummy.

I think furtive, csf and gamma seem OK based purely on meta but I'm not that confident. I don't actually understand Gamma's townread on andree but if Gamma is indeed town then I would probably sheep their townread on andree.

tris for asking some awkward looking questions,

there;s always someone who scumreads me for asking questions. what if i told you i always do that?

there;s always someone who scumreads me for asking questions. what if i told you i always do that?

I can believe it. You're more null then I guess.

Feels like Kitty was giving a reason to find Frog suspicious without having done much prior analysis. Unless you count "Frog wouldn't want to vote for tris, a scumbuddy" as analysis. I'm sorta suspicious that Kitty only made that post to add heat to frog without actually joining the fight

VOTE: Kitty

[Morning Tweet]

:roll:
Gonna give y’all a little tip: you might not want to kill me.

>.>

VOTE: Frogsterking
I think he’s scum here because his early “meta TR” evaporated fast after I defended Ythan, and I didn’t really notice any attempt to debate with me, so it seems clear his plan is to make anyone he thinks he can’t go toe-to-toe with a target.
There’s another player I have pinned as his partner but I’m keeping that close to the vest for now.

Don't you think basing your read on Frog off of solely his read on you might be prone to error?

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would it be?

[Morning Tweet]

I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta. I'm fine ending the day relatively early as this slot isn't flipping town.

VOTE: Gamma

I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but

four

separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now.

Is it the defeated "you don't want to kill me" coming out so quickly, or the OMGUS read, or sum else

The day is basically solved FMPOV provided there is enough support from the commuter players to get a Gamma flip. I think flipping anyone else D1 is suboptimal. I'm a little annoyed that I'm the townie getting piled on instead of Ranger when we have a pretty similar PoE but whatever I'll take it on the chin.

I'm just gloating randomly in the spoilers because I feel confident there are at least two scum in gamma + ythan/furtive/princess/maaaaybe mcmenno.

Spoiler:

I kind of skimmed the last few paegs I don't think frogsterking is looking that great here

VOTE: frogsterking

VOTE: Frogsterking
I think he’s scum here because his early “meta TR” evaporated fast after I defended Ythan, and I didn’t really notice any attempt to debate with me, so it seems clear his plan is to make anyone he thinks he can’t go toe-to-toe with a target.
There’s another player I have pinned as his partner but I’m keeping that close to the vest for now.

Here's the scum post from a previous game which Ythan's 62 pinged me for:

viewtopic.php?p=13548554#p13548554

Huh?? Are you talking about the capitalization?

Excuse me

I feel like the capitalization helped me to draw the connection and the underlying pattern is shade posted in the format of a question with feigned conviction.

Oh.

VOTE: Frogsterking

*beats chest*

RAWWWWRGRAAAH

I feel like I must be doing something right to get all these scummy votes on me.

I'm like mother goose and my early reads are the golden eggs.

You can call my wagon "Scum Hub: a place where scum can just be scum."

"gloating"

Lol

How good are you at feigning full solving the game as scum, as well as exerting control over it?

Frog describing himself as gloating and solved from his point of view, and so on is kinda my impression of town!Frog. He's one of those players that has a read on everyone. But I don't know how well Frog emulates this sort of excitement for solving as scum

Dannflor and now andree are both gone. Sad day

I kind of skimmed the last few paegs I don't think frogsterking is looking that great here

VOTE: frogsterking

I agree with this. Not much else to go on here but the weird claim but whatever for right now.

Nahhh

VOTE: Frogsterking
I think he’s scum here because his early “meta TR” evaporated fast after I defended Ythan, and I didn’t really notice any attempt to debate with me, so it seems clear his plan is to make anyone he thinks he can’t go toe-to-toe with a target.
There’s another player I have pinned as his partner but I’m keeping that close to the vest for now.

This seems right too, who knows what that is at the bottom but again whatever for now. Previous post might be a bit jumpy lemme look at what all was going on.

You suspect Frog because of his interaction with Gamma? It comes across as a really weak reason for Gamma to vote Frog, to me.

If you skim Frog's ISO Gamma starts as a meta townread, then after a while switches to a scumread. While there's not exactly a huge transitional period, Gamma posted a bunch and Frog didn't really imply that the meta read at the beginning of the game was strong.

I guess what I'm missing is how the interaction is +scum for Frog, what's the motivation? Turning anyone he thinks he can't go toe-to-toe into a target feels like a stretch to me, although I could see Gamma believing that

[Frogsterking]

Ehh MT I think you took a step backwards with your vote, I'm pretty sure that KT wasn't intending to shade my slot there and that your random vote on Gamma was actually on scum. KT has opened this way toward my slot as town before:

viewtopic.php?p=13516511#p13516511

Also, the answer to your question toward Gamma is that she isn't trying to sort my slot and the vote was made because we've been in this situation several times before and they just react this way when I call them out as scum. Gamma is definitely more methodical if I push them on accident when we're both town.

[Frogsterking]

Is it the defeated "you don't want to kill me" coming out so quickly, or the OMGUS read, or sum else

All of the above plus a few things lmao

I can quote to three games where Gamma and I were TvS and they made like identical posts in response to pressure, the most recent game being a few weeks ago and the oldest game being a couple years ago lol.

Also I noticed another thing Gamma said which I saw them do in their scum game from Lost.

[Ythan]

I thought I was being asked my impression of my wagon mates , I can take another look.

[Morning Tweet]

Why would it be?

Because you're biased. Town incorrectly OMGUSes people who scumread them probably more often than any other type of read imo.

In my opinion you haven't shown why scum!Frog votes you, other than because "he thinks he can't go toe-to-toe" with you. Which I think is super fallible reasoning, yeah. I find it suspicious that you think that Frog not trying hard enough to debate with you is sufficient evidence to condemn Frog.

Basically, I think basing a read solely off of the way a slot is reading you is very error prone.

I will admit I think your 146 felt premature as well, so that also colours my view. Premature in the sense that it felt disingenuous -- like it's too early to be getting exasperated enough to drop hints like that, and it seems more likely you'd make a post like that to reduce pressure off of yourself.

[Gamma Emerald]

I realized the exact reason why this push reeks of bullshit: it’s the same crock of shit Krazy used to pull against me. This sort of “scum!Gamma always reacts this way” comment is one I’m well-acquainted with, and one that imo ensures one of us is scum. So I think today’s vote absolutely SHOULD be between me and Frogsterking. It’s still not wise to vote me out, unless you want a lot of deaths really fast.

[Ythan]

I thought I was being asked my impression of my wagon mates , I can take another look.

Yeah this is in fact what I was being asked actually.

[Ythan]

You suspect Frog because of his interaction with Gamma?

So yeah maybe you misunderstood me I didn't say this.

[Morning Tweet]

Ehh MT I think you took a step backwards with your vote, I'm pretty sure that KT wasn't intending to shade my slot there and that your random vote on Gamma was actually on scum. KT has opened this way toward my slot as town before:

viewtopic.php?p=13516511#p13516511

Also, the answer to your question toward Gamma is that she isn't trying to sort my slot and the vote was made because we've been in this situation several times before and they just react this way when I call them out as scum. Gamma is definitely more methodical if I push them on accident when we're both town.

You might be right but I kinda still want to hear from Kitty where they got SvS from. They're calling you TvT in that example you linked

tris town.

idk about Frogster, backing out on tris so fast might be scum theatre but I can't say I scumread him otherwise.

Okay so actually Kitty is calling tris town so I'm a bit confused now. It felt like an odd shade to me but actually reading it with tris as a townread it looks more like Kitty is entertaining an alternative theory here. My bad.

UNVOTE:

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would it be?

Because you're biased. Town incorrectly OMGUSes people who scumread them probably more often than any other type of read imo.

In my opinion you haven't shown why scum!Frog votes you, other than because "he thinks he can't go toe-to-toe" with you. Which I think is super fallible reasoning, yeah. I find it suspicious that you think that Frog not trying hard enough to debate with you is sufficient evidence to condemn Frog.

Basically, I think basing a read solely off of the way a slot is reading you is very error prone.

I will admit I think your 146 felt premature as well, so that also colours my view. Premature in the sense that it felt disingenuous -- like it's too early to be getting exasperated enough to drop hints like that, and it seems more likely you'd make a post like that to reduce pressure off of yourself.

Well here’s the thing: the last several town games I’ve had, I’ve been subjected to numerous shitpushes, some of which have caused toxic reactions. So atp it’s kinda vibing that people are willing to fuck around with me until I either lay down and die or blow a fuse. It’s honestly appalling in a sense that I’m being treated this way.

[Frogsterking]

Okay so actually Kitty is calling tris town so I'm a bit confused now. It felt like an odd shade to me but actually reading it with tris as a townread it looks more like Kitty is entertaining an alternative theory here. My bad.

Good stuff! I'm pretty sure KT-you-me-tris are all town

[Morning Tweet]

You suspect Frog because of his interaction with Gamma?

So yeah maybe you misunderstood me I didn't say this.

hey, ythan. what do you think of the others voting frog

Let's see

I kind of skimmed the last few paegs I don't think frogsterking is looking that great here

VOTE: frogsterking

I agree with this. Not much else to go on here but the weird claim but whatever for right now.

VOTE: Frogsterking
I think he’s scum here because his early “meta TR” evaporated fast after I defended Ythan, and I didn’t really notice any attempt to debate with me, so it seems clear his plan is to make anyone he thinks he can’t go toe-to-toe with a target.
There’s another player I have pinned as his partner but I’m keeping that close to the vest for now.

This seems right too

, who knows what that is at the bottom but again whatever for now. Previous post might be a bit jumpy lemme look at what all was going on.

The bolded is what I was asking about. Since Gamma is voting Frog for his interactions towards Gamma's slot, I thought that's what you were agreeing with.

:roll:
Gonna give y’all a little tip: you might not want to kill me.

Yeah this could be a little jumpy for two votes.

So rather than the content of the actual votes, you were more referring to how you felt about the wagonmates themselves? It still comes across like you agreed with both of their respective reasonings but maybe I just misunderstand.

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay so actually Kitty is calling tris town so I'm a bit confused now. It felt like an odd shade to me but actually reading it with tris as a townread it looks more like Kitty is entertaining an alternative theory here. My bad.

Good stuff! I'm pretty sure KT-you-me-tris are all town

What about CSF, huh?