Mini 693 - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Mafia (OVER)

[iLord]

Where do you want to go with this? You've been wording your questions to try and get me to say that I'm insane and my results can't be trusted. This has gone on long enough.

Vote iLord

There's no way this is accidental - you're doing this on purpose

I'm saying nothing about your insane - if your a cop, I believe that you are sane and that your results can be trusted - I've stated so

multiple times

already.

We're talking about your mindset in the past.

A question you apparently don't have an answer to.

Voting me first won't do anything - unless you want me to believe that you bussed ZONEACE, answer my question, and stop acting like you don't understand it.

[Pesco47]

I don't understand your question.

Post it again or make it clearer.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: I don't think anyone else understands your question either.

[iLord]

Logical townie process should be:

1. I got guilty on a player.
2. Claim guilty on player in thread.
3. Said player says he's innocent.
4. Ignore him and get him lynched.
5. After he is lynched, he still says that he is town.
6. He does not have any reason to lie - his alignment's about to be revealed and he's already lynched - it's twilight.
7. Therefore, I must assume that he's not lying.
8. And so, I must not be sane, or ZONEACE had a millerish role.
9. I ask ZONEACE why does he have a role that turns up guilty to my cop result, or speculate that I could be insane, since my result was apparently false.

You didn't go through 6-9.

Why?

[iLord]

EBWOP: I don't think anyone else understands your question either.

Other than Malt, no ones's commented on it.

[iLord]

Pesco, why can't I see you in "Users online" section on the bottom of the main page where it shows everyone that's on?

[Pesco47]

Logical townie process should be:

1. I got guilty on a player.
2. Claim guilty on player in thread.
3. Said player says he's innocent.
4. Ignore him and get him lynched.
5. After he is lynched, he still says that he is town.
6. He does not have any reason to lie - his alignment's about to be revealed and he's already lynched - it's twilight.
7. Therefore, I must assume that he's not lying.
8. And so, I must not be sane, or ZONEACE had a millerish role.
9. I ask ZONEACE why does he have a role that turns up guilty to my cop result, or speculate that I could be insane, since my result was apparently false.

You didn't go through 6-9.

Why?

6. He was acting out of line by that stage. Intentionally being unco-operative and unhelpful. Most importantly, continuing to lie.
7. Null point since he was still lying.
8. I believe my results over him.
9. We did ask, he refused to tell.

EBWOP: I don't think anyone else understands your question either.

Other than Malt, no ones's commented on it.

Because nobody else understands it either.

Pesco, why can't I see you in "Users online" section on the bottom of the main page where it shows everyone that's on?

This is of no importance to the game.

[iLord]

6. He was acting out of line by that stage. Intentionally being unco-operative and unhelpful. Most importantly, continuing to lie.
7. Null point since he was still lying.
8. I believe my results over him.
9. We did ask, he refused to tell.

Just because you are right now, does not make it a null point before. All of what you listed could very plausibiliy be a frustrated townie tell - much more likely than a scum player blowing up and still claiming town after lynched.

You asked, but you didn't mention the possiblity of you being insane.

Because nobody else understands it either.

What makes you draw that conclusion?

This is of no importance to the game.

Yes, it is. I want to know when you are online and avoid my questions.

No, it's not. - Tar

--------------------------------------------------

You're tone has gotten a lot more cold under pressure. Why?

[Natirasha]

Pesco, why can't I see you in "Users online" section on the bottom of the main page where it shows everyone that's on?

Invisbility setting is on. You can't find me in Users Online, either.

[iLord]

Invisbility setting is on. You can't find me in Users Online, either.

I figured something like that.

And in that regard, I would like Pesco to please remove that setting, unless he has reasons to keep it.

[Pesco47]

Is having that setting on a scum-tell in your opinion now? I'm getting frustrated at what you're not saying in plain language.

[iLord]

Is having that setting on a scum-tell in your opinion now? I'm getting frustrated at what you're not saying in plain language.

Good job not answering any of my points.

No it's not a scumtell - I didn't ask Nat to remove his setting. I would like to know when you're on and when you're avoiding my questions.

You anger is very telling - the more I talk to you, the more I think that you were busing ZONEACE.

[Pesco47]

And now it's okay for ZONEACE to get angry and 'be townie' while I can't have that same benefit of the doubt?

If I had to follow your 9-step procedure for cops, I'd be jumping to some wild conclusions about my own role. You think it's how a cop should be playing, I don't. I'll believe what the mod tells me over what any other player says.

7. Therefore, I

must

assume that he's not lying.

That's too much of an insistence there. The lynched player

must

be right and I can't be? No matter what anyone believed about him then, that misconception should be corrected by the time a flip came around.

My current assumptions now are:
Scum can not perform their kill until it's Future Phase
Therefore, not being able to NK the cop they have to call bussing.

I've put ZONACE's final actions into perspective and concluded that he was probably most angry at his buddies bussing him too quickly. The main suspects being Malt (putting at L-1) and iLord (the hammer). Working to discredit the cop at any way possible is their best means of getting rid of me while they have no means to change the phase in their favour.

You don't need to worry about me lurking for the rest of the day. Mod prods exist for that reason. It shouldn't matter when I'm online or not, I'll post when I intend to speak up. And since this game still has 7 other people who should be active, let's see more posts from them.

[Natirasha]

Actually, I agree with Pesco, iLord.

If I was a cop, I'd just think he is lying. I think vollkan created a thread in MD before hand about this type of thing a while back...

[Tarhalindur]

Since I'm here, I'm putting my foot down.

Asking a player to change his or her personal site preferences just because of your personal preferences is unacceptable to me. In addition, I feel that using the times that a player is on site but not posting should not be a valid strategy (for much the same reason that apply to using mod PM structure for an advantage). Yes, I know it's standard practice on MTGS, iLord. This is not MTGS.

For these reasons, iLord, I consider your current requests for Pesco47 to change his user setting Jackassery.

Consider this an unofficial warning, iLord (since you might not have known that what you were doing is Jackassery, I won't give the Official Warning that I would usually give out here). Next time I won't be so forgiving.

Side note: I prefer the invisible setting myself. - Tar

[SilverPhoenix]

6. He does not have any reason to lie - his alignment's about to be revealed and he's already lynched - it's twilight.

He was angry about the whole thing, so he went kicking and screaming with personal attacks and whatnot. That is about the best reason to lie as I can see. Not everything in a game turns out the way you expect. That is why you cannot rely complete on "standard" tells in order to find scum. Games have unexpected events, period. I think simply that ZONEFACE implying that he was town after his lynch was one of those. The entire argument is fallacious under No True Scotsman.

Scum can not perform their kill until it's Future Phase

That's a bad assumption. It is a better assumption that this is a power role heavy game (evident by the Mafia watcher to see what roles the town might have), in which there could be roleblockers, doctors, NK-immunities, etc. Many reasons for a kill-less night.

I've put ZONACE's final actions into perspective and concluded that he was probably most angry at his buddies bussing him too quickly. The main suspects being Malt (putting at L-1) and iLord (the hammer). Working to discredit the cop at any way possible is their best means of getting rid of me while they have no means to change the phase in their favour.

It's an interesting theory, even though he was the most mad at you. A scum tell that comes to mind is scum blaming others for bussing when he was really the busser (iLord in this case). But again, a pretty big assumption.

Yes, it is. I want to know when you are online and avoid my questions.

What's the difference between him responding to your arguments 10 minutes or 10 hours after you make them? It sounds like you want him to slip up by getting angry and wanting him to respond quickly.

Overall, way too many assumptions (some more incorrect than others) for my liking. Bad assumptions = bad arguments.

[SilverPhoenix]

EDWOP: The link to the wiki is this: No True Scotsman. (added the period in the url )

[malthusis]

@iLord: I'm not getting why you say that Pesco is a sane cop, but then try to discredit her results at every turn. Are you saying she is a sane cop (which makes your discussion absolutely void), or that she's scum (say why).

[raider8169]

Im behind I know it, I hope to catch up sometime in the near future.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

And now it's okay for ZONEACE to get angry and 'be townie' while I can't have that same benefit of the doubt?

You haven't had any reason. A townie in ZONEACE's position would have right to be angry - he was lynched before he could even claim!

If I had to follow your 9-step procedure for cops, I'd be jumping to some wild conclusions about my own role. You think it's how a cop should be playing, I don't. I'll believe what the mod tells me over what any other player says.

What a player who should be confirmed and should have no reason to lie! What ZONEACE did is by no way good play - it was pointless, and it even gave us a wealth of information to use with.

I would most definitely not trust the sanity of a cop over a player who continues to claim town after there was no use for doing so.

That's too much of an insistence there. The lynched player must be right and I can't be? No matter what anyone believed about him then, that misconception should be corrected by the time a flip came around.

Yes. The lynched player has no reason to lie. The mod may have reason to lie to you or ZONEACE.

The misconception has been revealed. I'm asking why that misconception wasn't there in the first place.

My current assumptions now are:
Scum can not perform their kill until it's Future Phase
Therefore, not being able to NK the cop they have to call bussing.

I've put ZONACE's final actions into perspective and concluded that he was probably most angry at his buddies bussing him too quickly. The main suspects being Malt (putting at L-1) and iLord (the hammer). Working to discredit the cop at any way possible is their best means of getting rid of me while they have no means to change the phase in their favour.

That's a very unlikely scenario you've construed there - scum don't get a nightkill? And have no way to get them?

You don't need to worry about me lurking for the rest of the day. Mod prods exist for that reason. It shouldn't matter when I'm online or not, I'll post when I intend to speak up. And since this game still has 7 other people who should be active, let's see more posts from them.

Okay.

Sorry, Tar.

Actually, I agree with Pesco, iLord.

If I was a cop, I'd just think he is lying. I think vollkan created a thread in MD before hand about this type of thing a while back...

Really?

He was angry about the whole thing, so he went kicking and screaming with personal attacks and whatnot. That is about the best reason to lie as I can see. Not everything in a game turns out the way you expect. That is why you cannot rely complete on "standard" tells in order to find scum. Games have unexpected events, period. I think simply that ZONEFACE implying that he was town after his lynch was one of those. The entire argument is fallacious under No True Scotsman.

Your misrepresenting my argument again.

There's nothing about "standard" tells here.

Personal attacks are not a reason - ZONEACE does not further his win condition in anyway by doing what he did, and we should've at least considered that he was trying to fulfill his win con.

What's the difference between him responding to your arguments 10 minutes or 10 hours after you make them? It sounds like you want him to slip up by getting angry and wanting him to respond quickly.

The difference is the fact that he is avoiding my questions.

@iLord: I'm not getting why you say that Pesco is a sane cop, but then try to discredit her results at every turn. Are you saying she is a sane cop (which makes your discussion absolutely void), or that she's scum (say why).

You're not understanding what I'm saying (Pesco's right )

I'm saying that Pesco is sane and that he should trust his results right now. That doesn't void this discussion at all, which is about what Pesco should've assumed before.

[Pesco47]

I'll make a post when I'm feeling better (approx 12 hours). This isn't about answering anyone or posting at a certain time of day, this is about me delivering a post I've just promised.

[ZazieR]

I don't agree with iLord's appraoch, however this is a Tar game. This and Babylon 5 are the only games I know of Tar, but apparently there's something with Tar's cops.

Another role in the fine Tarhalindur tradition of investigative roles with drawbacks

That's why I asked Pesco a question about it.

Also SP, what I meant is easy to explain. You have read ZONEACE's posts, but you didn't read Tar's post. That gives me the impression that you already knew he would flip scum. If you still don't know what I'm talking about, see posts 1 or 328.
Also, which posts have you read between posts 349 and 390?

I think iLord wants to know why Pesco had no doubts at all about his result. In all those posts afterwards, he tries to show Pesco why he should have had doubts. He never said anything about not believing Pesco's result.

scum don't get a nightkill

Okay, don't mind this comment, but scum don't have a NIGHTkill as there's no NIGHT .
But I don't like it how Pesco comes to this theory as only one day has passed.

Also, iLord has a point. After reading the conversation between ZONEACE and Pesco, I have a feeling that a powerrole was involved. I wouldn't be too surprised if Tar has made a special role for this game.
My gut says something isn't right about Pesco

FoS Pesco

[ooba]

Zoneace getting banished sort of screws up the theory I had about the theme till now..

I know I haven't been posting at all - give me 2 more days - expect lots of posting after that ..

[SilverPhoenix]

Also, which posts have you read between posts 349 and 390?

All of them...? I have read everything, I don't know what you mean by "I'm ignoring the mod posts."

Also SP, what I meant is easy to explain. You have read ZONEACE's posts, but you didn't read Tar's post. That gives me the impression that you already knew he would flip scum. If you still don't know what I'm talking about, see posts 1 or 328.

Still confused about what you are talking about. I never said right out that ZONEFACE was scum, I never voted for him. I never gave indication that I possibly knew ZONEFACE was scum. Give proof that I did and I'll address it, but just saying I did doesn't make any sense to me.
And I did read Tar's post. I'm completely baffled at your seemingly no-reason, no-proof vote.

[ZazieR]

Before I'll answer or explain anything else, I meant 'which posts after your post 349 did you read'? Only those afterwards or did you check posts from before?