Mini 659: The Neighborhood- Game over on Day 6

[Rashiminos]

LYLO is not the time for pressure votes...

Matter of opinion. I think there's no time a pressure vote is more effective. I was online and checking regularly for safety's sake, and unvoted the moment someone scummy jumped aboard.

Two hours is not the moment. You fail +1.

Tony's death is a matter of two things: Scum chose to kill him, crywolf chose to protect elias (with bionic as a runner-up choice and Tony way back in 3rd or worse).

Tony was the only person who could prove or disprove wolf. He was the

obvious

NK target. Might as well have been a confirmed cop. You're asking us to swallow that not only did wolf not protect him, but the mafia somehow knew wolf would not protect him? It is unfathomable.

Tony was not the only unknown capable of proving wolf night 3. Your vote on DR does not change that fact. Obvious is "a matter of opinion" as you would say it. I'm not asking you to swallow wolf's choice. I leave that task to post 1050 Nor am I asking you to swallow that the mafia may (or may not) have known what crywolf was doing for some reason. I merely stated what happened. Scum killed Tony, crywolf claimed a protect on Elias, end of story. Start analyzing what I said, not the slanted and disordered mess you seem to be working with.

I even set a little WIFOM trap out there, naming Tony as a likely kill. They

both

ignored it?

You admit trying to encourage people to WIFOM so you can trap them?

Ythill's latest vote change only increases my confidence.

So I am scummy for initially pressure voting DR.

Never said that.

And for unvoting him when there was a sign of foul play.

You were a) late, and b)Leaving an opening for "foul play" (lylo scumwagon).

And for revoting him when he revealed his own alignment.

I don't recall the post that DR said "I am scum." So now you're putting words in his mouth,

I'm damned, in your opinion, no matter what I do. You've been making assumptive attacks on me for days, ever since I figured out wolf's alignment. I can't believe you expect to be taken seriously.

Early voting in LYLO tends to do that. Especially when you go for second best (DR) instead of your top suspect (crywolf) for "pressure" while putting the game on the line, and not having everyone's solid backing to do so. Your unvoting removed all considerable doubt. You misused associative tells (read: find a scum before using them) to mistakenly reach a conclusion about wolf's alignment, and have been padding that weak foundation. I don't trust you, and your actions today have strengthened that assessment.

I'll also echo the sentiment that "personal DR-needs-to-post deadlines" as a reason to vote DR is utterly absurd. Lurkiness =/= scumminess.

I

never

claimed that lurkiness equated to scumminess.

That statement was made generally. Individual applicability varies.

I've said that withholding info in this spot is scummy. That posting excuses and waiting until the last minute (or never) to give information cannot serve the purposes of town, but only serves the purposes of scum.

Withholding information doesn't help fakeclaimed scum either.

Wolf has been the obv-lynch since D1.

Nope that was Lowell. You might have a case for day 2, but obv-lynches aren't necessarily the best lynches.

DR has been obv since he replaced in. The

only

question in my mind is whether it is reasonable that they are scum together, but I've gotten over that. I'm just grateful that one is voting the other so that we can hang DR in spite of Rash's "blindness."

You lament the fact that DR is the only one we'll be able to lynch as if you aren't the cause of that predicament. I'd

love

to hang wolf but, though he's claimed he would, DR isn't voting her. And neither are you. Maybe you're scum and it doesn't matter who you're voting for, but if you are town and voting for me, the only way we can win this game is if we act quickly enough to utilize wolf's distancing to our advantage.

Newsflash, 6 of 7 players don't know your role (or are pretending), even if they have thoughts about such. Same goes for wolf. wolf's "distancing" has limited applicability here. Now, please explain how I have

caused

this predicament.

[Ythill]

Tony was not the only unknown capable of proving wolf night 3.

Sure, if DR is a watcher

and

wolf is a doctor, he

could

have guessed her target, watched that target, and cleared her. That's pretty far fetched. Tony was the only role capable of automatically busting her as scum or clearing her as town. Stating the ridiculous is no way to gain ground in an argument.

I even set a little WIFOM trap out there, naming Tony as a likely kill. They both ignored it?

You admit trying to encourage people to WIFOM so you can trap them?

Like twisting words, huh? I set the WIFOM trap to entice the mafia into killing someone else unless wolf was one of them. Same thing bionic did when he backed her into a corner about Tony's alignment. The outcome heavily suggests that wolf is scum.

Ythill's latest vote change only increases my confidence.

So I am scummy for initially pressure voting DR.

Never said that.

You claimed it was anti-town while voting me. Close enough.

I'll also echo the sentiment that "personal DR-needs-to-post deadlines" as a reason to vote DR is utterly absurd.

Lurkiness =/= scumminess.

I never claimed that lurkiness equated to scumminess.

That statement was made generally.

Bullshit. Read the part I bolded. Who else made that move?

I've said that withholding info in this spot is scummy. That posting excuses and waiting until the last minute (or never) to give information cannot serve the purposes of town, but only serves the purposes of scum.

Withholding information doesn't help fakeclaimed scum either.

BS again. We're at LYLO. All the scum need to do is sew enough confusion to force no lynch at deadline. An easy task from a claimed watcher.

wolf's "distancing" has limited applicability here.

I know, which is why I was hesitant when she first voted for DR. But I can't account for poor judgment on her part. All I can do is call the evidence as I see it, and I no longer believe in a world where one of them is town.

Now, please explain how I have caused this predicament.

It should be obvious. Oh, wait... that's how you answer questions...

Your lamenting the situation is your representation of townieness. So, assuming that you are town, your stubborn vote on me means that we have to catch scum distancing to win.

A clear majority finds both DR and wolf scummy. The only hold-up has been people waiting for DR's info.

Even if I was scum

, your insistance would be unlikely to lead to my lynch. But, if you are town, your vote is needed to hang scum... unless they are being very ballsy, like wolf is doing with DR.

[bionicchop2]

mod

- Can we get one more week due to DR's internet issues?

[Rashiminos]

Sure, if DR is a watcher

and

wolf is a doctor, he

could

have guessed her target, watched that target, and cleared her. That's pretty far fetched. Tony was the only role capable of automatically busting her as scum or clearing her as town. Stating the ridiculous is no way to gain ground in an argument.

Hmm, 3 other "power roles" is not too hard to guess from. The watcher only had to do one of the following: watch a target live, see crywolf having targeted that person, or watch a target die, having seen whoever did the deed. If crywolf claims to have protected someone DR knows she didn't target, then she's scum. Prior to start of day 4, Tony's role was unknown. Perhaps you're trying to distinguish who was better suited to finding out wolf's alignment? As of night 3, DR's and Tony's claims were both viable in that regard.

I even set a little WIFOM trap out there, naming Tony as a likely kill. They both ignored it?

You admit trying to encourage people to WIFOM so you can trap them?

I set the WIFOM trap to entice the mafia into killing someone else unless wolf was one of them.

So are there no reasons for Tony to be killed except those where wolf is scum?

Ythill's latest vote change only increases my confidence.

So I am scummy for initially pressure voting DR.

Never said that.

You claimed it was anti-town while voting me.

Nope. Anti-town is right, but a mistake being scummy isn't necessarily so. You

unvoted

when you had a safe vote (no scumwagoning) in lylo. The evident lack of consideration earned my vote.

I'll also echo the sentiment that "personal DR-needs-to-post deadlines" as a reason to vote DR is utterly absurd.

Lurkiness =/= scumminess.

I never claimed that lurkiness equated to scumminess.

That statement was made generally.

Bullshit. Read the part I bolded. Who else made that move?

Crywolf.

I've said that withholding info in this spot is scummy. That posting excuses and waiting until the last minute (or never) to give information cannot serve the purposes of town, but only serves the purposes of scum.

Withholding information doesn't help fakeclaimed scum either.

BS again. We're at LYLO. All the scum need to do is sew enough confusion to force no lynch at deadline. An easy task from a claimed watcher.

What DR does can't force what the 4 townies do unless DR is a townie.

wolf's "distancing" has limited applicability here.

I know, which is why I was hesitant when she first voted for DR. But I can't account for poor judgment on her part. All I can do is call the evidence as I see it, and I no longer believe in a world where one of them is town.

Exposing the game to two possible wagons by your indecisiveness, poor judgement or scummy? (One of the main reasons I can't vote either is that some of the would-be lyncher's are exceedingly scummy-looking themselves).

Now, please explain how I have caused this predicament.

Your lamenting the situation is your representation of townieness. So, assuming that you are town, your stubborn vote on me means that we have to catch scum distancing to win.

I'm concerned that the same people who were wrong on Darox are trying to set up a lynch with the same poor standards...

Your second sentence is flawed. It assumes we know you're town, which is an illegitimate assumption. bionic, crywolf, dead rikumaru, elias, fhq, and myself should not be discounting you from possible scumitude yet. We may still have to lynch you, so claiming that my vote on you prevents a win is shortsighted and an invalid argument.

A clear majority finds both DR and wolf scummy. The only hold-up has been people waiting for DR's info.

Even if I was scum

, your insistance would be unlikely to lead to my lynch. But, if you are town, your vote is needed to hang scum... unless they are being very ballsy, like wolf is doing with DR.

The majority has been wrong often enough, and bionic dropped the ball instead of the hammer yesterday, so I'm not without rationale for declining this wagon. Letting this circus continue would make it even less likely that you'd be lynched.

[Rashiminos]

EBWOP:

Ythill has been making the argument that my vote on him loses the game since

townies

are needed to hang scum. He has also been arguing as if we knew he was town. In that case I could argue that the scum could win merely by wagoning him.

[fhqwhgads]

I support Rash's arguments. More later (I have limited internet at the moment).

[Ythill]

Hmm, 3 other "power roles" is not too hard to guess from... Perhaps you're trying to distinguish who was better suited to finding out wolf's alignment? As of night 3, DR's and Tony's claims were both viable in that regard.

A guess between three is as accurate as a guarentee of getting info by selecting a single target? Listen to what you're saying. A truthful DR unveiling the truth of wolf's claim might have been viable, but a truthful Tony was guarenteed to succeed. And the mafia knew, yesterday, who among them was telling the truth.

Either wolf is scum or she is a doc. If she is a doc, the scum are using her as the next mislynch and Tony clearing her destroys all of the work they have done. If she is scum, Tony catching her is was the town's best chance of securing the win. DR

may

have revealed her alignment. Tony

would

have. The scum

needed

him to die.

Maybe wolf-doc could have missed this detail (though I find it unlikley) but I seriously doubt that an entire scum team (one that's managed to reach LYLO in spite of two no lynches) would have. Nor do I believe they would have risked a no kill unless they had a good reason to believe that it wouldn't happen. Ergo: mafia RB or wolf-scum.

So are there no reasons for Tony to be killed except those where wolf is scum?

Obviously no (see above). Noting how you edited my word-twisting accusation out of the quote, and how you are continuing to twist my words. Bionic pressured wolf into agreeing that Tony had demonstrated that he was town. I vaguely discussed likley NKs, naming only Tony. The idea was to make it clear that Tony was a very good protect for wolf, and to make sure tha mafia saw this information.

The "trap" part is simple. If wolf is the doc, the mafia are pretty likley to let her be cleared rather than risk the no-kill. In fact, if I was scum and we were still in that unthinkable wolf-as-doc world, I would have killed wolf, realizing that she had outlived her usefulness. What would you have done?

What DR does can't force what the 4 townies do unless DR is a townie.

So if we are ready to hang wolf and then DR comes in two hours before deadline to say that he saw her target Elias, that wouldn't force a no lynch? Or if you manage to get everyone convinced to hang me and then DR comes in just before deadline to say that he saw you kill Tony, that won't create enough division to force no lynch?

Maybe "force" is too strong a word but remember, we are not talking about the effects of DR's delay. The discussion is about his

intentions

.

Exposing the game to two possible wagons by your indecisiveness, poor judgement or scummy?

Neither. I am simply confidant in my reads.

Your second sentence is flawed. It assumes we know you're town, which is an illegitimate assumption.

It doesn't assume anything. I'm not talking about perceptions, I'm talking about facts. If you are town, we cannot acheive a scum-lynch while you are voting me. Whether or not you choose to believe that is up to you.

The majority has been wrong often enough...

Wrong or right, a majority is

required

to lynch and we

need

to lynch to win. Playing renegade here is futile. It's much better for town if you find the scummiest of the popular lynches and argue it over the one you find most likley to be a mislynch. I, for one, think it doesn't matter much which we hang.

Ythill has been making the argument that my vote on him loses the game since townies are needed to hang scum. He has also been arguing as if we knew he was town.

Did you forget about the part where I explain how your renegade vote and stated refusal to change votes is detrimental to town interests even if I am scum?

In that case I could argue that the scum could win merely by wagoning him.

We've been through this. Scum

can

win the game by quicklynching me, but they don't

have to

. Think of the risks. Two jump on and scare you into unvoting, or Elias is lying and the town has a 2:1 kill ratio with all three scum revealed. These risks are mitigated by the fact that

your vote

hands them the no lynch and therefore the win. All they

have to

do is nothing.

[Rashiminos]

A guess between three is as accurate as a guarentee of getting info by selecting a single target? Listen to what you're saying. A truthful DR unveiling the truth of wolf's claim might have been viable, but a truthful Tony was guarenteed to succeed. And the mafia knew, yesterday, who among them was telling the truth.

That's nice and all, but this is what you said previously:

Tony was the only person who could prove or disprove wolf.

This statement is patently false for the reasons I gave in a previous post. You've backpedaled from there.

Either wolf is scum or she is a doc. If she is a doc, the scum are using her as the next mislynch and Tony clearing her destroys all of the work they have done. If she is scum, Tony catching her is was the town's best chance of securing the win. DR

may

have revealed her alignment. Tony

would

have. The scum

needed

him to die.

Maybe wolf-doc could have missed this detail (though I find it unlikley) but I seriously doubt that an entire scum team (one that's managed to reach LYLO in spite of two no lynches) would have. Nor do I believe they would have risked a no kill unless they had a good reason to believe that it wouldn't happen. Ergo: mafia RB or wolf-scum.

You've managed to convince yourself that wolf is scum, but you're voting DR instead?

Your case on crywolf at this point seems to hinge on crywolf meeting your minimum expected standards for doc play (ie: protecting who you think should be protected). At the time she had to make the decision (if she made it at all) Tony's alignment was unknown. Tonyscum was still possible, and there was another role which had a far more convincing case for being pro-town. That would be our vig, who has made a shot, and whose role is apparent, if not as potentially as useful as you wished Tony's to be. Prior to day 4, deciding between likely-confirmed vig and murky tracker was not as clear of a choice as you pretend it is...

Now the scum could have thought about this too and took a guess, but perhaps if we're arguing over kills which are guaranteed for scum, why not the doc? You've pretty much answered that already, but now it's a question whether you actually know the minds of scum...

So are there no reasons for Tony to be killed except those where wolf is scum?

Obviously no (see above). Noting how you edited my word-twisting accusation out of the quote, and how you are continuing to twist my words.

There's no twisting involved. You said that you set a WIFOM trap for the mafia. If Tony dies after that post, you do one thing. If he doesn't, you do another. You just set that post out as bait (it's a trap, you said so yourself) so that you can return to it later (day 4) and speculate on the night's kill. Trying to WIFOM trap the mafia is the same as encouraging people (in this case the mafia and yourself) to WIFOM. You are in denial about things you have said yourself. I can't help you with that, but to say "DIE SCUM!"

Bionic pressured wolf into agreeing that Tony had demonstrated that he was town. I vaguely discussed likley NKs, naming only Tony. The idea was to make it clear that Tony was a very good protect for wolf, and to make sure tha mafia saw this information.

What I read here is a description about leading the doc. How shall I distinguish this from leading the doc?

The "trap" part is simple. If wolf is the doc, the mafia are pretty likley to let her be cleared rather than risk the no-kill. In fact, if I was scum and we were still in that unthinkable wolf-as-doc world, I would have killed wolf, realizing that she had outlived her usefulness. What would you have done?

Hypothetically, it's likely that I would have killed the doc (guaranteed) and then set up a mislynch between Tony and DR as they became less likely to both be protown. If wolf was my scumpartner in this hypothetical situation, I'd probably have hit a vanilla and still be setting up the same mislynch, with the fallback of bussing crywolf.

What DR does can't force what the 4 townies do unless DR is a townie.

So if we are ready to hang wolf and then DR comes in two hours before deadline to say that he saw her target Elias, that wouldn't force a no lynch?

Your noose has been made...

Or if you manage to get everyone convinced to hang me and then DR comes in just before deadline to say that he saw you kill Tony, that won't create enough division to force no lynch?

I can't stop people from unvoting, but there is a difference in trusting me as opposed to trusting DR as far as votes have gone.

Exposing the game to two possible wagons by your indecisiveness, poor judgement or scummy?

Neither. I am simply confidant in my reads.

A little too confident for one who does not want to talk about scumpartners. How about it? DR, crywolf, and who?

Your second sentence is flawed. It assumes we know you're town, which is an illegitimate assumption.

It doesn't assume anything. I'm not talking about perceptions, I'm talking about facts. If you are town, we cannot acheive a scum-lynch while you are voting me. Whether or not you choose to believe that is up to you.

For you, your alignment is a fact. For most of us, it is a perception. In this case, perceptions matter. We can achieve a scum-lynch with me on you. You could (and I definitely think so) be scum. Since your alignment isn't known to US, arguments based on such fail.

The majority has been wrong often enough...

Wrong or right, a majority is

required

to lynch and we

need

to lynch to win. Playing renegade here is futile. It's much better for town if you find the scummiest of the popular lynches and argue it over the one you find most likley to be a mislynch. I, for one, think it doesn't matter much which we hang.

Care must be take to distinguish between "a majority" and "The majority." As we can see in hindsight from day 2, the scum had a hand in contriving two wrong "popular" lynches (Darox and Tony) with which to lead us astray. Popularity and quality are not equivalent, although hopefully the latter leads to the former. Your indifference to lynching crywolf or DR seems out of place.

Ythill has been making the argument that my vote on him loses the game since townies are needed to hang scum. He has also been arguing as if we knew he was town.

Did you forget about the part where I explain how your renegade vote and stated refusal to change votes is detrimental to town interests even if I am scum?

I don't recall it, so I must have forgotten, please remind me.

In that case I could argue that the scum could win merely by wagoning him.

We've been through this. Scum

can

win the game by quicklynching me, but they don't

have to

. Think of the risks. Two jump on and scare you into unvoting, or Elias is lying and the town has a 2:1 kill ratio with all three scum revealed. These risks are mitigated by the fact that

your vote

hands them the no lynch and therefore the win. All they

have to

do is nothing.

Honestly, I'm flattered you like arguing from the "Ythill and Rash are both town" perspective, but it would be silly for the rest of the town to be as confident as you seem to be about someone else being town.

[fhqwhgads]

Yes!

Sorry, my internet time was a bit iffy this weekend. Finally we have someone taking on Ythill from running this game (into the ground?) Rash's arguments make sense to me, oh and let me answer this to you:

A little too confident for one who does not want to talk about scumpartners. How about it? DR, crywolf, and who?

I'm willing to put money on the fact that he'll name me partner number 3. Well, no matter, I for one feel that there's only one thing that's already convinced me that Ythill's hands are not clean, and it's the way he's been throwing votes around; in LYLO. Pressure voting does not belong in LYLO. Period.

He might be trying to sell me that scum hasn't bandwagoned because his votes were ON scum, but I think it is because he IS scum. All they need is to sway one townie, and it's game over.

I'll still wait till deadline, but if things don't change, my vote is going this way.

[Ythill]

That's nice and all, but this is what you said previously:

Tony was the only person who could prove or disprove wolf.

This statement is patently false for the reasons I gave in a previous post. You've backpedaled from there.

I didn't backpedal. I just neglected to insert the word "automatically" into my original sentence. As in, Tony was the only person who could

automatically

prove or disprove wolf. In context, my point was clear. The DR-was-just-as-good-a-target was your strawman, and now you are arguing in circles.

You've managed to convince yourself that wolf is scum, but you're voting DR instead?

They're both obv-scum. I've said that 2361231239512312365 times.

Your case on crywolf at this point seems to hinge on crywolf meeting your minimum expected standards for doc play...

If by "case" you mean

new points introduced today

then I'll concede. I've been bringing evidence against wolf for days and it adds up to a hell of a lot more than that.

Trying to WIFOM trap the mafia is the same as encouraging people (in this case the mafia and yourself) to WIFOM.

Why is it bad to add extra protection to an important role by convincing the mafia to WIFOM and therefore not kill him? Why is it bad to set up a situation that helps to prove that my PE#1 is scum, when applied to the most likely scenario that leaves her alignment otherwise unrevealed?

You are in denial about things you have said yourself.

Lies. I stated simply that something was a WIFOM trap, you twisted that to suggest I was encouraging the

town

to WIFOM. I explained how what I meant was different than what you said, and you twisted my words, trying to suggest that I said wolf-as-scum was the only reason anyone would target Tony. I knew exactly what I meant all along. You are the one trying to paint it in a scummy light.

What I read here is a description about leading the doc. How shall I distinguish this from leading the doc?

Well, it would help your theory if we had a doc.

Seriously though, I am scum for trying to lead the doc to my own NK choice? You're making less and less sense. Yes, I was leading the doc. No, it doesn't mean I am scum. Considering the kill identity, it suggests that I am town.

For you, your alignment is a fact. For most of us, it is a perception.

Facts are facts are facts. If you believe chickens are mammals, it doesn't give them nipples. If I am arguing that chickens lay eggs, and I cite that they are not mammals without first proving it, you are correct that the entire chicken-nipple camp can call out BS, but some of us see reality, in spite of your manipulations.

Those who agree that DR and wolf are obv-scum, those who see you trying to lynch me instead, because I had the audacity to switch my vote between the two obv-scum roles, will realize whether or not this chicken has nipples, and will therefore follow the arguments I laid out.

You act as if I am trying to assert my townieness in order to put forth the conclusion that I am town. I have done no such thing. I've asserted it in two arguments... (1) To refute the

scum could bandwagon Ythill-town for victory

argument which, incidentally, hypothetically assumes that

both you and I are town

on its own. And (2) to refute the

woe is us because we are forced to lynch DR

appeal you made, which is applicable whether I am scum or town.

What DR does can't force what the 4 townies do unless DR is a townie.

So if we are ready to hang wolf and then DR comes in two hours before deadline to say that he saw her target Elias, that wouldn't force a no lynch?

Your noose has been made...

Or if you manage to get everyone convinced to hang me and then DR comes in just before deadline to say that he saw you kill Tony, that won't create enough division to force no lynch?

I can't stop people from unvoting, but there is a difference in trusting me as opposed to trusting DR as far as votes have gone.

Cute. But you're straying from the subject. Do you see the possible scummy

intentions

in delaying this info? Do you see matching townie intentions?

A little too confident for one who does not want to talk about scumpartners.

Like I said before, I answered your question. I added that I don't like to

base conclusions

on unconfirmed alignments. Meta me and you will find this true across the board. I also questioned your motives for asking, because I saw potential scum motives for that question. But I did answer you. Calling me "one who does not want to talk about" it is a fabrication.

How about it? DR, crywolf, and who?

I already told you that it is not clear. Obviously it is either you, Fhq, or bionic. Right now, I'm leaning towards you, which may be partially OMGUS. And actually, not to disappoint fhq, but in realizing that DR is scum I have trouble swallowing fhq as the third buddy.

Popularity and quality are not equivalent, although hopefully the latter leads to the former.

Popularity and viability

are

equivalent with a 4:3 ratio.

Your indifference to lynching crywolf or DR seems out of place.

Ambivalence is a better word, but anyway... I don't see how it's out of place. It started when I realized they were both scum. And it's not total ambivalence. Deep down, I'd rather hang wolf, but there is that nagging possibility that you could be town, which means we have to hang DR. In case you don't believe me, watch what I do if either you or DR vote wolf.

Did you forget about the part where I explain how your renegade vote and stated refusal to change votes is detrimental to town interests even if I am scum?

I don't recall it, so I must have forgotten, please remind me.

Jesus man, really? You quoted it! Grumble. It's the last paragraph of #1151.

Honestly, I'm flattered you like arguing from the "Ythill and Rash are both town" perspective, but it would be silly for the rest of the town to be as confident as you seem to be about someone else being town.

This is too much. The Rash-town arguments were responses to

your own points

where

you

inferred your townieness. I was endulging your own hypotheticals to refute you. I listed the arguments in the chicken-nipples bit above, so I'm not going to type them again.

I am certainly

not

convinced you are town.

[Ythill]

@fhq: I'll respond to your arguments directly if you come up with something original. Until then, just read my responses to Rash, since you're just aping him anyway.

[fhqwhgads]

Ythill, just gave my opinion. I'm really busy at the moment, which means I don't have time to formulate a full argument. Something which I wanted to do for a while now (hence my concerns posted much earlier). Rash has come in the meanwhile and is making a very thorough argument against you, addressing my concerns, and more. I don't necessarily agree with ALL his arguments, mine is more rooted in the simple fact that you were voting very irresponsibly during LYLO. In my opinion, no one, but scum, can benefit from votes like that.

In response to your statement that I'm aping rash, fine, I'm aping him. Actually, I'm just supporting his arguments, but call it what you will. Do you want everyone who makes an argument against you to make a unique one? How do you propose we ever get a majority vote. Oh right. We don't. Two times in a row now.

Here's a question for you. You've been accusing Rash of twisting your words and setting up strawmen. Yet you are somewhat vague on what you believe Rash's alignment to be. So I ask you directly: If you believe Rash IS twisting your words and setting up stawmen arguments, do you think he is scum? If not, what use would town have for 'setting you up'?

[Rashiminos]

I didn't backpedal. I just neglected to insert the word "automatically" into my original sentence. As in, Tony was the only person who could

automatically

prove or disprove wolf. In context, my point was clear. The DR-was-just-as-good-a-target was your strawman, and now you are arguing in circles.

It wasn't in your original sentence. The context was not clear. It's a backpedal. Denial +2 (If you feel like you're going in circles, maybe you need to lie down).

I never said anything about DR being a target. That's misrepresentation. Your original argument was "who could prove wolf's alignment," and DR was a valid answer to that in addition to Tony, contingent on them not being lying scum (in hindsight Tony was not).

You've managed to convince yourself that wolf is scum, but you're voting DR instead?

They're both obv-scum. I've said that 2361231239512312365 times.

No, you pressure-voted DR. There was no need to unvote and switch if you felt both were obv-scum and one voted the other.

Your unvote after crywolf voted for DR contradicts the assertion that DR is obv-scum.

Your case on crywolf at this point seems to hinge on crywolf meeting your minimum expected standards for doc play...

If by "case" you mean

new points introduced today

then I'll concede. I've been bringing evidence against wolf for days and it adds up to a hell of a lot more than that.

A lot of your "evidence" is speculation about the setup and involves divining wolf's alignment from the actions of others and forces links that aren't necessarily true. This means your case is craplogic.

Trying to WIFOM trap the mafia is the same as encouraging people (in this case the mafia and yourself) to WIFOM.

Why is it bad to add extra protection to an important role by convincing the mafia to WIFOM and therefore not kill him? Why is it bad to set up a situation that helps to prove that my PE#1 is scum, when applied to the most likely scenario that leaves her alignment otherwise unrevealed?

Simple, so someone can make the argument that Ythill's PE #1 is scum. You added no extra protection if the mafia already thought about this "detail" (sounds like one of your prior arguments), and they decided they could get away with heat going on crywolf. You act as if this trap could not be used to frame crywolf instead, and that's where the problem is.

You are in denial about things you have said yourself.

Lies. I stated simply that something was a WIFOM trap, you twisted that to suggest I was encouraging the

town

to WIFOM.

Here's what I said:

I even set a little WIFOM trap out there, naming Tony as a likely kill. They

both

ignored it?

You admit trying to encourage people to WIFOM so you can trap them?

Note that I said people. This means that mafia are included, and it's not just the town. You set a trap where the mafia (who are people) WIFOMS when they kill (from your day 4 argument perspective) and you WIFOM about the kill when you wake up in the morning.

I explained how what I meant was different than what you said, and you twisted my words, trying to suggest that I said wolf-as-scum was the only reason anyone would target Tony. I knew exactly what I meant all along. You are the one trying to paint it in a scummy light.

I'll let your past self speak here:

I even set a little WIFOM trap out there, naming Tony as a likely kill. They both ignored it?

You admit trying to encourage people to WIFOM so you can trap them?

Like twisting words, huh?

I set the WIFOM trap to entice the mafia into killing someone else unless wolf was one of them. Same thing bionic did when he backed her into a corner about Tony's alignment. The outcome heavily suggests that wolf is scum.

Am I twisting words? (No.) You have been suggesting that this was the case: "wolf is scum because Tony was killed."

***

More to come...

[Rashiminos]

What I read here is a description about leading the doc. How shall I distinguish this from leading the doc?

Well, it would help your theory if we had a doc.

The "idea was to make it clear that Tony was a good protect" doesn't make sense unless we potentially had a doc on day 3:

Bionic pressured wolf into agreeing that Tony had demonstrated that he was town. I vaguely discussed likley NKs, naming only Tony. The idea was to make it clear that Tony was a very good protect for wolf, and to make sure tha mafia saw this information.

What I read here is a description about leading the doc. How shall I distinguish this from leading the doc?

You've since concluded from the NK (in addition to all of that other craplogic, spare me) that wolf is scum, so she is not doc. This is not an applicable explanation for a prior day 3 event. Your reason for the "idea" came before that statement, not afterwards. Let's hear it.

Seriously though, I am scum for trying to lead the doc to my own NK choice?

No, you're using the doc/NK interplay to make fallacious arguments.

Yes, I was leading the doc. No, it doesn't mean I am scum.

You shouldn't be leading the doc to conclude the "doc" is scum.

Considering the kill identity, it suggests that I am town.

Explain this.

For you, your alignment is a fact. For most of us, it is a perception.

Facts are facts are facts.

Except when they are not.

Those who agree that DR and wolf are obv-scum, those who see you trying to lynch me instead, because I had the audacity to switch my vote between the two obv-scum roles, will realize whether or not this chicken has nipples, and will therefore follow the arguments I laid out.

Can only townies "agree" that DR/wolf are obv-scum? Can only townies follow your arguments and prop them up? Does the following of your arguments make your arguments sound? Why does it matter if "obv-scum busses obv-scum?"

You act as if I am trying to assert my townieness in order to put forth the conclusion that I am town. I have done no such thing. I've asserted it in two arguments...

Yes you have, which renders those arguments invalid.

To refute the

scum could bandwagon Ythill-town for victory

argument which, incidentally, hypothetically assumes that

both you and I are town

on its own.

That assumption was given in the argument to show an example how us both being town need not be true for our current situation in the light of the arguments of where a) You assert that you are a townie to make arguments, and b) where the scum let the town nolynch (If the town nolynches, then the town deserves to lose.) The assumption can be contradicted as I have shown.

And (2) to refute the

woe is us because we are forced to lynch DR

appeal you made, which is applicable whether I am scum or town.

I didn't say forced. How does you asserting your townieness help an argument where you could be scum or town? Also, stop using words like "woe", "lament", etc. I'm not crying.

What DR does can't force what the 4 townies do unless DR is a townie.

So if we are ready to hang wolf and then DR comes in two hours before deadline to say that he saw her target Elias, that wouldn't force a no lynch?

Your noose has been made...

Or if you manage to get everyone convinced to hang me and then DR comes in just before deadline to say that he saw you kill Tony, that won't create enough division to force no lynch?

I can't stop people from unvoting, but there is a difference in trusting me as opposed to trusting DR as far as votes have gone.

Cute. But you're straying from the subject. Do you see the possible scummy

intentions

in delaying this info? Do you see matching townie intentions?

I regard the delays in DR's posts as a null-tell. He's had internet problems and time constraints. Neither are conducive to the type of post he wants to make. You're trying to make something look scummy when it isn't.

That goes for bionic and crywolf too.

A little too confident for one who does not want to talk about scumpartners.

Like I said before, I answered your question. I added that I don't like to

base conclusions

on unconfirmed alignments.

Then stop asserting your townieness. Your alignment is unconfirmed.

I also questioned your motives for asking, because I saw potential scum motives for that question. But I did answer you. Calling me "one who does not want to talk about" it is a fabrication.

I missed that when I posted. Must have been the "hackles rising "section. You're still too confident.

Popularity and quality are not equivalent, although hopefully the latter leads to the former.

Popularity and viability

are

equivalent with a 4:3 ratio.

As popular and viable as a Lowell vote, I'm sure.

Did you forget about the part where I explain how your renegade vote and stated refusal to change votes is detrimental to town interests even if I am scum?

I don't recall it, so I must have forgotten, please remind me.

Jesus man, really? You quoted it! Grumble. It's the last paragraph of #1151.

You mean this?

Now, please explain how I have caused this predicament.

It should be obvious. Oh, wait... that's how you answer questions...

Your lamenting the situation is your representation of townieness. So, assuming that you are town, your stubborn vote on me means that we have to catch scum distancing to win.

A clear majority finds both DR and wolf scummy. The only hold-up has been people waiting for DR's info.

Even if I was scum

, your insistance would be unlikely to lead to my lynch. But, if you are town, your vote is needed to hang scum... unless they are being very ballsy, like wolf is doing with DR.

Saying that "a majority" is dead set on lynching DR does not equate to a representation of my townieness. Assuming me as town is not valid (but thanks for the flattery). Even with the assumption, "your stubborn vote on me" is false in the possible event that Ythill is scum, so again your argument is not valid. The clear majority may not be right, and my continued effort on you obviously has the intention of persuading them that you are a better lynch. Just because you deem the consensus (remember that scum can consent too) to be against me, it doesn't mean my actions are worthless. If they don't like the cup of tea I'm offering, then they can make 4 with 6 as I said. I consider my vote to be on scum and in the process of hanging scum, thank you very much.

Honestly, I'm flattered you like arguing from the "Ythill and Rash are both town" perspective, but it would be silly for the rest of the town to be as confident as you seem to be about someone else being town.

This is too much. The Rash-town arguments were responses to

your own points

where

you

inferred your townieness. I was endulging your own hypotheticals to refute you. I listed the arguments in the chicken-nipples bit above, so I'm not going to type them again.

I didn't infer that, you did. You're reading into the lines (adding things without cause).

I am certainly

not

convinced you are town.

Then stop arguing about my "renegade vote" as if you were convinced. The next time you do so, you will be scum for knowing my role.

[Ythill]

LOL. More circles. I'll get to Rash's nonsense later today, if I have the time. I've only got a few minutes now and wanted to address fhq...

My apologies for the tone of my last post to you. I was arguing with Rash and a little worked up. I didn't mean the "aping" thing as an accusation though I can se that you took it that way. I was only saying that I'd already answered your concerns above. Sorry for the bombast.

Here's a question for you. You've been accusing Rash of twisting your words and setting up strawmen. Yet you are somewhat vague on what you believe Rash's alignment to be. So I ask you directly: If you believe Rash IS twisting your words and setting up stawmen arguments, do you think he is scum?

Didn't mean to be vague, it's just that I'm not entirely sure. Considering the options and Rash's escalation, I feel confidant saying that he is the most likely third scum, but not without adding that I could be wrong. I am sometimes guilty of OMGUS and I'd like to keep that in mind, just in case.

Hanging obv-scum today will give us lots of time to reread with the confirmed alignments in mind and make a more reasonable determination about Rash.

If not, what use would town have for 'setting you up'?

This question suggests that the set-up is proven to be conscious, and I don't believe it has been proven such. Rash is actually a lot like me. If he's town, he's got tunnel vision and his ego will not let him back down from a fight he thinks he can win. Which is ironic.

[bionicchop2]

mod

repeating request for deadline extension since Ythill and Rash had a quote-war explosion and I don't want my request lost.

[crywolf20084]

mod

repeating request for deadline extension since Ythill and Rash had a quote-war explosion and I don't want my request lost.

I second the request for the extension, and am quiet amused with these quote wars....

[Dead Rikimaru]

Hi,

Sorry for being late. Boss got "active" today.

I will post what I wanted, but I will have to summarize.

The reason I voted crywolf

By the time I voted crywolf I had not finished catching up and I didn't know she had claimed doc.
I just wanted to avoid the no-lynch (see below) and voted the player closer to get lynched.

If I knew

I would actually object lynching her, at least at that point of the game. I think that simply a watcher & tracker combo (along with a one-shot vig) is unbalanced against the town (the normal would be a cop & doc, at least)
Also she claimed early, at a point that , if the claim were fake, there would be a high risk of counterclaim.

The reason to avoid a no lynch

Is that in most cases it favors mafia.
If town can't decide between two players and choose a no-lynch mafia will simply kill a player that is not in danger of being lynched. The next day town will have the same doubt about the same players and will have one townie less.
The only time I agreed to a no-lynch it was a 2 townies+1 SK+1 Mafia situation in hopes scum would kill each other.

Oman watched

Night 1 - Ythill
Night 2 - crywolf

Last Night, I watched

crywolf again.
I would have preferred to watch Elias, but after using his one shot vig he was like another Vanilla, so I decided to watch the claimed doc again.

She was tageted by

fhqwhgads.
The flavor says something about him reading a Nursery tales book to crywolf.
The fact alone that fhqwhgads claimed vanilla is reason enough to vote him, since it's obviously a lie. So:

vote : fhqwhgads

It took me a long time to write this post while making other things. It's not the multiple detailed posts I intended to make (just to upset bionic) but is what I could do.
Now I have to go home.
Will try to show up tomorrow.

BTW,

FOS : Ythill

After I said I would not be able to use internet during the weekend (only on Monday at work) you gave me a 24h warning

KNOWING I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO POST

. You, sure is a great candidate for tomorrow's lynch.

[crywolf20084]

Last Night, I watched

crywolf again.
I would have preferred to watch Elias, but after using his one shot vig he was like another Vanilla, so I decided to watch the claimed doc again.

She was tageted by

fhqwhgads.
The flavor says something about him reading a Nursery tales book to crywolf.
The fact alone that fhqwhgads claimed vanilla is reason enough to vote him, since it's obviously a lie. So:

vote : fhqwhgads

Umm..fhq can I--we--have explination?

[bionicchop2]

She was tageted by

fhqwhgads.
The flavor says something about him reading a Nursery tales book to crywolf.
The fact alone that fhqwhgads claimed vanilla is reason enough to vote him, since it's obviously a lie. So:
vote : fhqwhgads

Interesting. If what you say is true, it could very well mean crywolf is legit and was roleblocked, which would make scum confident they could kill Tony. This would be at the risk of losing one of their own if watched though.

IF he is telling the truth though, it would mean cry is possible (almost certainly) town and that would mean fhq, rash and ythill are all scum (or 3/4 vanillas).

[Ythill]

As I was about to post this, I noticed DR's post. I wrote this post before reading his, but will adress his shortly.

@ everyone:

The following post is entirely for wolf’s entertainment [/sarcasm].

Seriously though, unless the

deadline is extended (please, please, please?)

, this will be my last long post before deadline. As you know, I am often V/LA on Mondays and Tuesdays. So it looks like Rash will have the last word.

Decide carefully whether or not to believe him. Obviously, no solid evidence (such as a confirmed cop result) exists as regards anyone. And the game is hanging in the balance. Even if Rash’s shenanigans has you questioning my alignment, consider whether you think I am the

best lynch for today

.

Consider also the weight of his evidence. Rash has posted a lot of words and argued a lot of details but his entire thesis boils down to a couple of tells. He says that my attacks on wolf have been less than logical. He says that my voting today has been irresponsible. I hold that neither of these things are true but

even if they were

, they can be attributed to a townie.

Compare his case to those against wolf and DR. Look at the way other people have brought unique suspicions against them, but how Rash has been the chief proponent of a Ythill-lynch in spite of what you thought on your own. Be aware that he is manipulating you, whether to serve his ego or his alignment.

I still assert that wolf is the best lynch, with DR a close second. Reread my posts to see why I think this, and decide what you believe.

Though I will not be able to make a long post like this one, I will be able to occasionally check in before deadline. I will gladly hang DR or wolf. I will not hang anyone else.

@ Rash:

It wasn't in your original sentence. The context was not clear. It's a backpedal.

Fail. It wasn't clear

to you

in context. You could have asked me to clarify instead of guessing what I meant. Clarifying after the fact is not

backpedaling

, I have not changed my intended meaning, you were just wrong about it.

I never said anything about DR being a target. That's misrepresentation. Your original argument was "who could prove wolf's alignment," and DR was a valid answer to that in addition to Tony, contingent on them not being lying scum (in hindsight Tony was not).

*Headdesk* My original argument was that Tony was the obvious NK choice b/c he was the only one who could [automatically] clear or condemn wolf. You argued that other people could have cleared him. If you were not arguing my conclusion, then why even bother?

Your unvote after crywolf voted for DR contradicts the assertion that DR is obv-scum.

You're straying even further from reality. I didn't say DR was obv until

after

his last post. Until then, I was still harboring a little doubt, as was evident in my unvote (and expressed explicitly around that time).

A lot of your "evidence" is speculation about the setup and involves divining wolf's alignment from the actions of others and forces links that aren't necessarily true. This means your case is craplogic.

Do we have a confirmed cop with a guilty result? No. Do we have other solid facts comparable to that? No. We have nothing except a lot of evidence that

suggests

people's alignments. In some cases, it has added up deeply enough to form conclusions.

Your argument here makes me laugh becasue my case on wolf is

a lot

more extensive and

a lot

less assumptive than yours on me. In the name of brevity, let's just look at today's evidence...

Wolf is a claimed doc who did not die, did not protect the crucial role for "clearing" her, and who's pressence did not sway the mafia from killing him even though two people all but suggested that she protect him.

I am a claimed townie who has engaged in "irresponsible" voting against two people I see as scum. Hell, even if my voting was irresponsible, it doesn't mean I'm scum.

You act as if this trap could not be used to frame crywolf instead, and that's where the problem is.

Rash, OMG, think about what you are saying. This statement is absolutely ridiculous. If I was using that trap to frame wolf, it means that I am scum and she is the doc. If I am scum, what would be the gain in leading a real doc to protect someone and then killing that person? Was I trying to have my NK blocked?

It makes absolutely no sense.

Note that I said people. This means that mafia are included, and it's not just the town.

Conceded. I misread your tone in the heat of things. Sorry.

You set a trap where the mafia (who are people) WIFOMS when they kill (from your day 4 argument perspective) and you WIFOM about the kill when you wake up in the morning.

Very generally, yes, though the WIFOM today is pretty mild. I cannot fathom that mafia would target Tony after that trap without knowing the kill was safe.

I set the WIFOM trap to entice the mafia into killing someone else unless wolf was one of them. Same thing bionic did when he backed her into a corner about Tony's alignment. The outcome heavily suggests that wolf is scum.

Am I twisting words?

(No.)

(Yes.) You have been suggesting that this was the case: "wolf is scum because Tony was killed."

Quote fixed. Look back at what you said: "So are there no reasons for Tony to be killed except those where wolf is scum?"

I explicitly said that there were

reasons

for Tony to be the kill whether wolf was scum or town. Tony's alignment was nearly confirmed by his actions late yesterday, so I had no reason to believe he wasn't the ideal kill.

Now go back and read what I said: "to entice the mafia into killing someone else unless wolf was one of them." Which means that, if wolf is scum, the mafia may very well still kill Tony but,

if she is not

they are unlikley to. Which is the only thing I've said (and meant) all along, despite the meaning you attributed.

You've since concluded from the NK (in addition to all of that other craplogic, spare me) that wolf is scum, so she is not doc. This is not an applicable explanation for a prior day 3 event. Your reason for the "idea" came before that statement, not afterwards. Let's hear it.

I don't understand the question. I'll try reiterating but, if I don't answer you, please rephrase the question...

Yesterday I was pretty convinced that wolf was scum, but made an effort to ensure that she was either cleared or condemned today. I set up a situation whereby Tony would be likely to survive (thus revealing her alignment) or where it would be (more) obvious by his death that she was scum. Today I interpreted that information. I don't see the conflict there.

Considering the kill identity, it suggests that I am town.

Explain this.

Already have (above) but I'll say it again. Saying that I (as scum) would lead wolf (as doc) to protect a player and then choose to kill that player is absurd. If the gambit was successful, I would only have managed to block my own kill.

You're still too confident.

That's funny from an equally confidant guy who is operating on less evidence

and

leading against the consensus.

Popularity and quality are not equivalent, although hopefully the latter leads to the former.

Popularity and viability are equivalent with a 4:3 ratio.

As popular and viable as a Lowell vote, I'm sure.

Do you even know what viability means?

First off, I was never on board with the Lowell lynch, so your cheap shot is entirely pointless. Second, viability has nothing to do with a D1 lynch. Third, the statement is that viability=popularity (trasnlation: an unpopular lynch is less likley to actually happen at this ratio). That's what I was saying all along, and then you tried to assert "quality" into the argument, and then I simplified the argument without your additive "quality" so as to better communicate it, and then you try to use some

viability + popularity = something else

argument in its place? Huh?

Back to the original statement... in a situation where the number of town equals the number needed for a lynch, the viability of a lynch is equal to it's popularity. We've argued this so far into the ground that I don't even remember what the point of this statement was. LOL. But that's the statement, stop trying to cahnge it in order to disprove it.

Saying that "a majority" is dead set on lynching DR does not equate to a representation of my townieness.

Oh contraire, my slippery friend. You said, "The way things have been going, it doesn't seem like we're going to have anyone but DR lynched today..." The context and tone of this

infers

(which was what I said) that the matter is both out of your hands and against your better judgment. Which is a point of view that can be associated with town but not scum.

Now, maybe you meant something else. And I wasn't trying to say that you were scummy for saying what I quoted right there. I was just saying that it was invalidated by your own actions (as hypothetical town). You (as town) have the power to alter the opinions of others. You, as one of the 'nillas, are one of the important swing votes. It is certainly within your power to try to argue wolf (the other popular lynch) over DR. So you acting like the matter is out of your hands ("The way things are going") is not valid.

Just because you deem the consensus (remember that scum can consent too) to be against me, it doesn't mean my actions are worthless.

It depends on how you are using

worthless

here. And on your alignment. Even then, worthless is probably a strong word to describe your renegade-ness, but it certainly isn't the wisest course of action. Unless, of course, you are utterly convinced that both wolf and DR are town, which seems inconceivable to me.

[Ythill]

Wow... okay. Noting that this is a version of the come-in-at-the-last-minute-and-give-game-changing-evidence ploy I was expecting.

Unvote

for the moment because, either way, Fhq is going to vote for DR and I don't want him @ L-3 until we are ready to hammer.

I do not believe there is a RB. There has been no evidence of it at all. And I'm pretty sure DR is scum anyway. Interested to hear what others have to say about this...

[gorckat]

Deadline extended 48 hours to 11/20.

[crywolf20084]

Thanks, Mod.

[bionicchop2]

Thank you mr. mod