Mini 693 - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Mafia (OVER)

[raider8169]

Zoneace, once the guilty came out there is more less enough reason to full claim if you are not able to explain why a guilty came out. I have never seen someone not get lynched when a guilty came out their way. If you would have claimed right away and then everyone could have talked and came to a decision before the votes were placed. Just my 2 cents.

[SilverPhoenix]

How is that a direct contradiction? Before this game I've never seen someone accused of being scum saying, "hey. maybe i'm a miller". THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION THERE BUT GOOD TRY.

The standardness of "I'm miller" isn't the contradiction. You said you didn't say "maybe I'm a miller" when you clearly did.

You claimed "maybe I'm a miller" was a standard response. I have never seen that used (i'll admit its may have been used in games ive not been in) and

I've never used it.

I can think of a few explanations that wouldn't even relate to relevant Role info i would have been given, and those are, he's not sane/the mask isn't trust worthy

or I'm a miller (possibly just in the past, or maybe at all times.)

But what's up with this quick (and possibly mis-) lynching? Guys, seriously be more careful, especially now that we absolutely know that we have a double-voter. What a freaking disaster.

[Tarhalindur]

I apologize for locking the thread. I don't have time to deal with this immediately, and this needs to stop NOW.

Punitive action against ZONEACE (including, at a bare minimum, autolossing him) are forthcoming. - Tar

[Tarhalindur]

The Culling

ZONEACE was trapped. He lashed out, screamed, rage. In doing so, he crossed a line.

The Goddesses saw this... and they took action.

ZONEACE, Rauru, Mafia Tracker, MODKILLED Day 2

Day 2 continues.

[Tarhalindur]

"No matter how hard it is, just don't get discouraged. Ho Ho Hoo!" - that damn (dead) owl

The Eighteenth Vote Count (aka the "Up, Right, Down, Down, Up, Right, Down, Down" Vote Count):

Vote Count:

andersonw (0)
ZazieR (rep. letsbefriends) (0)
Natirasha (0)
malthusis (0)
ooba (0)
SilverPhoenix (0)
iLord (0)
Pesco47 (0)
raider8169 (0)

Not Voting (10): andersonw, ZazieR, Natirasha, malthusis, ooba, SilverPhoenix, iLord, Pesco47, raider8169

Votes required to lynch: 6

FoS Count:

andersonw
ZazieR
Natirasha
malthusis
ooba
SilverPhoenix
iLord
CoheedCambria09
Pesco47
raider8169

Current Deadline:

November 25, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

First Mod Deadline Review:

November 18, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

[raider8169]

Zoneace is in the same place as MafiaSSK. This is odd...

[SilverPhoenix]

Which probably means that MafiaSSK isn't playing this game at all. XD

[raider8169]

Which probably means that MafiaSSK isn't playing this game at all. XD

Maybe banished means they can return. We have one in the graveyard and 2 banished. One of the 2 banished has had their roles reviled.

[iLord]

I don't think banished means they can return - why would a Mafia go to the "banished" place then?

It might be the otherway around.

I'm going to go look back at the reactions - ZONEACE gave us a wealth of information on the way out (in reactions.)

[iLord]

asdfasdf

You're point?
The only sage I could think of who would have thought 'I'm bad' would have been that sand girl. But 'he' is already dead.

But I actually think there's one Sage who could be scum. No wonder if your heart gets broken.

Zas, what was your thought process around this post? No vote?

What a direct contradiction. Tell me exactly what you mean by your earlier comment.

Attacks him...

I like that defense, except for what you find the "most relevant". How is that relevant? Someone accuses you of being scum and you distance yourself from a previous argument you made? That isn't the best thing to do if you were town at all. Makes me believe more that you are scum.

"isn't the best thing to do if you were town at all?"
"Makes me believe more that you are scum?"
"I like that defense, except?"

SP is so hesitant to call him scum that I noted it even in my brief scanning yesterday. Looks like a hesitant bus, in my view

Vote: SP

-------------------------------------

After ZONEACE flipped, Pesco was pretty confident it wasn't a sanity problem, which is odd, and I would like him to explain.

Reading along, I could've sworn that ZONEACE was town based on how he acted before Tar posted. I feel that a nonbussing Pesco would've at least mentioned it. Pesco?

ZONEACE, it's pretty simple right now.

If you're town

, you give your final thoughts instead of going on with your discussion with Pesco. If you're scum, discuss further with Pesco.
I gladly want to hear your thoughts if you're town and use them the next day, but then you have to give them. And yes, I agree with you that the others shouldn't have lynched you that soon. But that's not a reason to post like that.

Did no one else get fooled as much as I did? Zas could you explain your thought process here?

But what's up with this

quick (and possibly mis-) lynching

? Guys, seriously be more careful, especially now that we absolutely know that we have a double-voter. What a freaking disaster.

Anyone?

--------------------------------------------------

Thinking SP's the top suspect. Confused about Pesco.

[SilverPhoenix]

Attacks him...

My "attack" wasn't really one: it was a question that he never got to answer fully.

SP is so hesitant to call him scum that I noted it even in my brief scanning yesterday. Looks like a hesitant bus, in my view

You are drawing up your entire case on my hesitancy? The hesitancy that has been with me the entire game? The hesitancy that was there for both the

town

lynch on D1 and the

scum

lynch on D2? That proves that my hesitancy has

nothing

to do with the alignment of suspects. Townies are far from infallible, as we witnessed on D1, so I never completely trust my instincts at any one moment in the game, nor do I ever completely trust any townie (confirmed, claimed, or assumed) for that matter.
You have a sure-fire way of playing: you settle on a target you think is scum and rain down arguments until he's lynched. While I find that an admirable trait for a townie, townies that think they are absolutely right for any period of time in a game are the ones that hurt the town the most, as their view tunnels and they ignore potentially better targets, often until it is too late. Your instincts about ZONEFACE and Coheed are only right if you know the information ahead of time, and are not vindicated by their cardflip if you didn't know the info ahead of time.

[Pesco47]

@iLord: I don't quite get what you're asking me. Rephrase pls?

[andersonw]

@iLord: In your post 304, you said that you thought ZONEACE was scum. Then, you just said in post 334 that you thought ZONEACE was town. Did you change your mind after he was lynched?
(also, I don't get the part you directed at Pesco either. What do you mean by "Pesco was pretty confident it wasn't a sanity problem, which is odd"?)
And I would like to see your response to SP's post, too.

My thoughts on ZONEACE: I really didn't like his aggressiveness, and it seemed to cloud whether or not he was mafia or town, since being aggressive can come from both roles. (and not knowing much about the theme doesn't help either).
I guess the previous sentence was pointless, seeing that he already turned up mafia, but just wanted to put that out there.

Finally, where did Natirasha go?

[ZazieR]

Zas, what was your thought process around this post? No vote?

I wanted to discuss Pesco's result. That's why I gave no vote. My thoughts were something like 'Guilty result. Yes. But can we assume that he really is guilty?'

Zas could you explain your thought process here?

When I'm town and the game is in twilight, I want to share my thoughts. That way, the town can still use my thoughts and opinions even after I'm dead. When ZONEACE refused to do so, it gave me the impression that he was scum. However, it wasn't revealed at that time so I wasn't sure about it. That's why I tried to convince him into giving his thoughts if he was town. But now I know why he didn't.

But what was your point in bolding?

[Natirasha]

Nat's here.

I'm just still on VLA, even if it doesn't look like it.

[Pesco47]

Trying to rationalise ZONACE's last actions before going out of line. From his point of view, he might have thought he could overturn my guilty result on him. Getting angry was probably because his buddies wagoned him too quickly for him to put up a fight.

Raider and Nat's votes didn't seem to instigate him much. iLord hammered, and Malt put the L-1. Co-incidentally, these 4 people are ones that I felt were possibly scum in my Day 1 summary. I'm at a loss as to who to pursue right now.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

You are drawing up your entire case on my hesitancy? The hesitancy that has been with me the entire game? The hesitancy that was there for both the town lynch on D1 and the scum lynch on D2? That proves that my hesitancy has nothing to do with the alignment of suspects. Townies are far from infallible, as we witnessed on D1, so I never completely trust my instincts at any one moment in the game, nor do I ever completely trust any townie (confirmed, claimed, or assumed) for that matter.
You have a sure-fire way of playing: you settle on a target you think is scum and rain down arguments until he's lynched. While I find that an admirable trait for a townie, townies that think they are absolutely right for any period of time in a game are the ones that hurt the town the most, as their view tunnels and they ignore potentially better targets, often until it is too late. Your instincts about ZONEFACE and Coheed are only right if you know the information ahead of time, and are not vindicated by their cardflip if you didn't know the info ahead of time.

Hesitancy vs. your prodding of him at the same time - weak scum busses most often consist of "he looks scum here, and he did this scummy, so we should probably lynch him." Especially with the hesitancy in your playstyle - it matchs the picture perfectly.

@iLord: I don't quite get what you're asking me. Rephrase pls?

Why did you never question your sanity?

@iLord: In your post 304, you said that you thought ZONEACE was scum. Then, you just said in post 334 that you thought ZONEACE was town. Did you change your mind after he was lynched?
(also, I don't get the part you directed at Pesco either. What do you mean by "Pesco was pretty confident it wasn't a sanity problem, which is odd"?)
And I would like to see your response to SP's post, too.

A lot of posts pasted in between - I thought ZONEACE was town, but then he flipped out extremely convincingly in my opinion.

When I'm town and the game is in twilight, I want to share my thoughts. That way, the town can still use my thoughts and opinions even after I'm dead. When ZONEACE refused to do so, it gave me the impression that he was scum. However, it wasn't revealed at that time so I wasn't sure about it. That's why I tried to convince him into giving his thoughts if he was town. But now I know why he didn't.

But what was your point in bolding?

What I was trying to get to is how you felt about ZONEACE's alignment after you flipped out.

[Pesco47]

Why should I want to consider my sanity being an issue? Link could plausibly be naive, but I got a guilty result so that one is pretty clear.

[iLord]

Why should I want to consider my sanity being an issue? Link could plausibly be naive, but I got a guilty result so that one is pretty clear.

The Mask of Truth could not flavorfully be fooled?

ZONEACE's role could just be insane?

Did you not find ZONEACE's performance convincing enough to even think about the possiblity of your sanity being not sane?

[Pesco47]

This isn't a game of Dethy. There was no reason to consider sanity.

[SilverPhoenix]

Hesitancy vs. your prodding of him at the same time - weak scum busses most often consist of "he looks scum here, and he did this scummy, so we should probably lynch him." Especially with the hesitancy in your playstyle - it matchs the picture perfectly.

Now why do scum bus? One of two reasons. The first, and most often, is that the two are tied together so much that if one flipped scum, the other would too. The second, and much weaker, is to appear more town by advocating the lynch of a known scum.
Not to sound vain, but I'm not that stupid as to make myself appear "more town". I have nothing to prove to the town, I am innocent until proven guilty by mod or otherwise.
Also, I wasn't sold at all on the ZONEFACE lynch, as quoted below.

But what's up with this quick (and possibly mis-) lynching? Guys, seriously be more careful, especially now that we absolutely know that we have a double-voter. What a freaking disaster.

Although parts of his play were scummy, I wasn't sold. If I was, I would have gladly voted for him. I don't see the problem with that. I have hesitant this game because frankly I haven't seen a whole lot of meaty stuff to dig into. I guess a reread is in order, but hesitancy is never a sure scum tell.

ZONEACE's role could just be insane?

How does that affect Pesco's investigation?

[raider8169]

Raider and Nat's votes didn't seem to instigate him much. iLord hammered, and Malt put the L-1. Co-incidentally, these 4 people are ones that I felt were possibly scum in my Day 1 summary. I'm at a loss as to who to pursue right now.

Even though I am on your list I feel I should point out that once someone claims that he is guilty he is as good as lynched. Had he flipped townie then we would be lynching the person who said he was scum. Everyone who voted him could be going off the same logic so its a null tell. Someone on that list could be busing.

[iLord]

This isn't a game of Dethy. There was no reason to consider sanity.

There is a reason to consider it if your target claims town after being voted past the lynch threshhold.

Now why do scum bus? One of two reasons. The first, and most often, is that the two are tied together so much that if one flipped scum, the other would too. The second, and much weaker, is to appear more town by advocating the lynch of a known scum.
Not to sound vain, but I'm not that stupid as to make myself appear "more town". I have nothing to prove to the town, I am innocent until proven guilty by mod or otherwise.
Also, I wasn't sold at all on the ZONEFACE lynch, as quoted below.

I don't get what you are saying - are you saying that you will never bus?

Although parts of his play were scummy, I wasn't sold. If I was, I would have gladly voted for him. I don't see the problem with that. I have hesitant this game because frankly I haven't seen a whole lot of meaty stuff to dig into. I guess a reread is in order, but hesitancy is never a sure scum tell.

You have to understand that it's not just the hesitancy - it's the awkward combanation of trying to attack and get ready to jump off if the wagon doesn't look like it's going to succeed.

How does that affect Pesco's investigation?

The sanity of Pesco's role rests on his target being sane enough to consider himself town.

[SilverPhoenix]

it's the awkward combanation of trying to attack and get ready to jump off if the wagon doesn't look like it's going to succeed.

It's not a question of whether I think the wagon will succeed, but rather a question if I think they are scummy enough. In both cases, I didn't think so, even though there were parts about both players that I found scummy. I have controlled my vote somewhat tightly in this game; I am not voting and unvoting like crazy, which is really the true sign of attack hesitancy. I've have had mixed feelings about people in this game so far, and I don't see myself really attacking people (I haven't really made a strong case on anyone yet) or jumping on wagons (only voted Coheed after voting himself, didn't vote for ZONEFACE).

I don't get what you are saying - are you saying that you will never bus?

I more or less meant that I feel I don't have to prove myself to the town for being town. I guess it is more WIFOM than anything, as if I were scum, would I want to distance myself from a partner that is getting lynched or just keep my mouth shut about him? Considering my playstyle, I would prefer the second choice, as it offers the least information. But that doesn't really matter: what matters is that calling my play a bus is pretty much WIFOM.

[SilverPhoenix]

The sanity of Pesco's role rests on his target being sane enough to consider himself town.

Well, doesn't that mean that ZONEFACE have to be a cop? He flipped tracker, but I somewhat doubt that he would be an insane tracker.