Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Aisa]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Ah.

The difference is I've been making an active attempt, whereas I personally don't think HPE has. Also nobody has complained about the number of HPE's posts.

And what I meant was, you might not be able to convince me, but your future actions might, or your past actions might after some flips or role reveals. Or someone else's read of you will resonate with me. But you arguing for your own alignment probably isn't going to work. Same thing with me trying to show you that I'm town.

Oh
If Grib is scum this is genius

[Aisa]

Not Mafia is a fine wagon, I guess
VOTE: Not Mafia

I'm just asking Bella about her reads because conftown can sanity check things and all that.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VC 3.07

With 8 players, it takes 5 to make a decision. Day 3 ends in (expired on 2022-11-05 15:00:00).

VC

Enchant [2]:

Elements [1851], Grib [1852]

Eiralox [1]:

Enchant [1820]

Not_Mafia [1]:

Aisa [1901]

Not voting [4]:

Bellaphant, Not_Mafia, Eiralox [1808], Frogsterking [1831]

Flavor

Spoiler: Mythic Quest

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Less than 24 hours deadline warning

[Elements]

I am sorry I upset you by the way. It's not true that only you were toxic because I did troll you because I was bitter that you wagoned me so hard, especially after I had to out I was rubbing it in your face and I think that is just as mean as what you said. I don't really believe you did anything wrong because you seem to have a method you were following which is objective and I'm not entitled to not being scumread and wagoned. I also think you may be right that it's

partially

my fault people wanted to vote me because I did disappear from this game a lot and I barely posted or worked on my reads after D1. In my mind I told myself that I was playing well because I was avoiding the NK by being quiet but I think in reality I was lying to myself and being lazy.

I'm sorry I told you to walk off a cliff. There's not really any excuse for that. Other than our clash I've been very much enjoying this game and your posts that aren't shouting that I'm scum makes me think I could enjoy playing with you (when you're not trolling and I'm not over-reacting).
At this point I just want a hug from Aisa and to flip NM.
VOTE: NM
Maybe if we both someone survive the night you can realise I'm town and we can power-solve this game tomorrow

[Grib]

Not much going on I see, but I'm glad peace has been restored.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NM

[Grib]

Pretty dissatisfied with this phase all around tbh, but it is what it is.

[Frogsterking]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Ah.

The difference is I've been making an active attempt, whereas I personally don't think HPE has. Also nobody has complained about the number of HPE's posts.

And what I meant was, you might not be able to convince me, but your future actions might, or your past actions might after some flips or role reveals. Or someone else's read of you will resonate with me. But you arguing for your own alignment probably isn't going to work. Same thing with me trying to show you that I'm town.

Oh
If Grib is scum this is genius

This crosses through one of the points I was looking at!

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Grib

"Transference is when someone redirects their feelings about one person onto someone else. During a therapy session, it usually refers to a person transferring their feelings about someone else onto their therapist.

Countertransference is when a therapist transfers feelings onto the patient. Both transference and countertransference usually happen unconsciously."

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/wha ... ansference

~~~~~~~~

This vibe is super fucking weird.

I'm going to be surprised if you're both town here. Honestly, it reads like hard distancing, but I can't imagine what the team would have to be for this to be a viable strategy.

Hey Grib, how are you?

...

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and

there's a reasonable chance he's scum

. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

Fuck. That was a kick to the ball sack.

...

This post is @BBT but I don't feel like quoting his large post.

I had a silly thought over Night 1 that if mafia shot HPE, TSQ would tunnel me for this phase and either succeed in getting me eliminated or ruin any towncred I had. Given that no one besides him has really shown any interest in scumreading me, I figured it was the mafia's best bet to get me back in the elim pool. I would say the major difference between my scumread and yours is that you already looked bad and were a viable wagon because of your argument with him, while I looked questionable at best near the end of Day 1.

Regarding the buddying and my request of your past town games, I thought that maybe you just wanted to have a villager pocketed and picked Bella by having an empty (meta) townread on her. When I asked you about your past meta reads, I didn't mean on Bella specifically, I was referring to any instance where you were a villager and relied on meta to read someone else. Because if this isn't something you normally do as a villager, then it just looks like a fake townread.

I see.

If it helps, I town read Bella after she was tracked to a kill. And then defended her. I have a tendency to just town read her for some reason.

...

Also, ideally, I wouldn't have to summon you to do the one thing town is supposed to be doing. Observing that you aren't really engaged is hardly talking about you.

If you want to sort me talk to me, not about me.

Scum struggling to engage with the game without someone providing an angle for them...

Just incase anyone was wondering.

~~~~~~~~

I hate "overdefensive" as a thing that people say in mafia games.

It's a buzzword that means nothing. Townies defend themselves. Sometimes excessively. Overdefensiveness is not alignment indicative in literally any way.

That definitely isn't what you did.

Yes, it is.

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

And clearly my questioning of why you were focusing on such a non aspect of my post was me questioning your alignment.

You're scrambling now and you're still not answering my questions.

...

Will be getting to this tonight at some point. If not, for sure over the weekend

How about everyone votes BBT instead.

We have a bunch of people who seem not willing to wagon at all.

...

If you don't think those posts are you pushing me then I don't know what to say...

If you think "please explain your reasoning for this because I don't like it and I don't like your tone" is pushing then honestly I question if you've ever played mafia before.

...

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead, but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation.

This is just more buzzwords, you're very clearly struggling to explain this read.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead, but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation.

This is just more buzzwords, you're very clearly struggling to explain this read.

Town is way more likely to struggle to explain reads than scum is.

~~~~~~~~

I meant, what peopel have to say about it when I lay out the reasons. But you're right, I don't think I'm going to get much out of waiting.

The problems I have with that vote are

1) it was waaay too early to accuse Firebringer of not wanting to have reads.
2) it was also too early to accuse scum of not wanting to fill out your survey - barely half the game had posted at that time.
3) you didn't explain why scum would or would not interact with your quiz.
4) I purposefully ignored your quiz to see what you would do about it, and you didn't react at all, which makes me think that 2 was complete bull.
5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

this is a scum post. poking at things that are surface level and look weird but at their core don't have any particular reason why scum would do them rather than town.

I think the whole song and dance that grib did wrt me and frogster falls into the same category of just performative nonsense.

I don't think you think any of this actually helps you find scum.

VOTE: grib

Realistic attempts to sorts don't look like this, generally, this is what scum posts when they want to look involved in the thread but don't have anything real to push on.

Eh, yeah, that's about what I expected from Shea. There's always at least one player every single game who dislikes either me or my playstyle and then finds a way to scumread me for it.

Probably just going to ignore and play around that slot, to be honest, because if he's a villager there's like 0% chance he ever extends an olive branch.

...

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

Well, people are complaining about consolidating and not having a last minute rando wagon. Let’s be real, the only real momentum the BBT wagon had was due to your case, and I decided that wasn’t enough for me. I paid more attention to the people saying that BBT often gets flack for playstyle.

Anyway, Solway has momentum, that slot isn’t villagery enough imo, there were some takes I agreed with but I also massively feel like he’s making easy posts. Which is ??? when he did say that this game his thoughts are much more fleshed out than he usually plays.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think I reevaluated BBT twice? I voted him fairly early, then Shea did his reaction test, I stayed to see what would happen, I moved to HPE at some point, and then switched back to BBT because Shea shaded me for vanity voting.

Shea shades a lot tbh.

...

Part of my issue with grib is that basically all his analysis seems completely on the surface, and he keeps demanding people justify themselves to him without really giving much justification of his own outside of very baseline stuff.

Like ironically if I'm looking for someone in this thread who is trying to make sure he has Reasons TM for everything he's doing and every progression it's grib, the problem is I haven't really found any of those justifications to be compelling.

I don't think not being compelled by my reasons is at all the same thing as my stances not being as justified as you (or anyone) would like them to be. You can think someone explained themselves well or has good reasons for thinking a certain way, and still disagree with the premise of what they're saying. I just think you're conflating the two.

I'm happy to elaborate on anything I've said that's lacking.

...

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

Independent of the read on BBT, the mindset of this post is pretty bad. I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

Hmmmmm.

Sorry, "I hear you and I'll drop it" doesn't work on things that happened seventy pages ago? What are you trying to say with that post?

seventy posts, not pages

~~~~~~~~

So when he said his Bella read was based on meta, that set off alarm bells. I’m leaning towards that fake read being used to pocket Bella, rather than shield her from pressure.

Why do you think it's more likely a pocket attempt?

I guess because the alternative is just bad play imo.

If BBT gave a meta townread on Bella with no substance when he is publicly vocal about hating meta reads, and Bella soft-townreads him and pokes and prods at non-BBT options when he's getting run up, then they just both get axed.

Okay maybe what I'm trying to say is that it feels way too easy.

the problem I have with "way too easy" reasoning is that just proves it isn't
if that makes sense

...

I think I'm good with the posting tonight. I didn't expect to post at all but the opportunity to poke Elements was too tempting.

Gonna make myself log off for the night.

Expect to see some posts from me when you wake up. Possible pointed at you. I'm half running down the player list looking at people in between interacting with the active people

...

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Are you opposed to kicking nm out the game before the second mafia and if so why?

...

Unvoting me while goading others to vote me is pretty cowardly.

He’s probably voting Eira because Eira won’t cooperate. And has also has basically no interest in finding mafia, at least from what I can see.

I'm not voting you cos there's no point if no one else is

...

See: my panic start of day two where I vigged a mason.

Bella, can you quote the panic post? I can't find it.

Enchant isny claiming vig, are they?

I really don't like aisa's position on me today, btw

I think this points to Bella vig if that's what you're questioning Grib

...

I low-key want to die so I won’t have to deal with the inevitable clusterfuck that Day 4 will be.

VOTE: Enchant

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Enchant

Despite thinking I'm likely scum you're very happy to follow my vote

~~~~~~~~

This is what I'm seeing when hunting. I used two different methods I'm into which are experimental but promising. They're called elimination by pathing and tracking the transference. They're both mainly based on spatial reasoning rather than verbal reasoning. In summary, Grib chooses high EV paths for scum and the scumminess from different slots originate from Grib. There is a point where Grib makes a big play by keeping his vote on BBT instead of me which increased his win rate (because of how he used the credibility) by giving him better chances to end game. Grib played a hand in outing the roles D3 but took a less visible route than Elements did (because he's informed I think.) The Shea kill was also extremely beneficial for Grib. I'm between

low

and

moderate

certainty on my Grib read which isn't great but it's the best I've got. I suggest we vote Grib instead of NM.

[Aisa]

Can you explain what you mean by “the scumminess from different slots originated from Grib?”

[Frogsterking]

Can you explain what you mean by “the scumminess from different slots originated from Grib?”

Yeah! Thank you for asking.

A good example is from 1545 when I accused Elements of role phishing in 1518. When I compare 1515 with 1518 and I give it a while to sink in, I can realize that subconsciously 1515 pinged me as much as 1518 did if not more so. In other words, I was acting as though it was only 1518 which was pinging me, when it was really reading 1515 right before it which pinged me.

If you imagine it's the writers of the posts who are pinging us as much as the posts themselves, you can see that I was attributing "scumminess" to Elements which was really being caused by Grib. This has been happening in a pattern due to transference from Grib into Elements. Because I can keep tracing the scumminess back to Grib, that is a sign that Grib is a better chance to actually flip scum because deep down I am recognizing something there, even though my brain may try to trick me into thinking it's other players who I'm recognizing something in.

The part that was difficult was arranging the posts together in pairs that show where the pings are really coming from, and then doing that enough times to trace who is transferring "scumminess" into who.

[Elements]

I'm happy to vote Grib, I just don't think we'll have the support to get to majority

[Elements]

Also this is some galaxy brain level stuff right here

[Grib]

I am legitimately sorry you put that much effort into casing me.

[Grib]

I don’t even really know how to respond to it. “All the scuminess I felt from other players actually originated from Grib because he was really sneaky and subtle about it”? That’s a pretty big reach.

Also, I hate endgaming as scum with a passion. I’d rather be bussed to make my partners look good. I leveraged my “towncred” for the BBT vote exactly one time, and that was to get Elements to think about my alignment. I don’t think I’ve done anything that suggests I’m operating with a scum agenda; I’ve spent the entire phase just trying to get people to talk.

That’s about all I have to say about that unless you can condense anything in there to shorter questions.

[Grib]

I guess another comment I have is that if you had died instead of BBT, I’m fairly certain a Grib/BBT/??? would’ve gotten away with it. There was a lot of support for your death, and despite how close it was I don’t think you were even around to claim.

[Enchant]

VOTE: Grib

[Elements]

I'd rather have Grib around tomorrow than NM

[Eiralox]

I'm feeling N_M can really be mason

[Enchant]

Difference being.

NM can be shot.
Grib no.

[Enchant]

Well i mean if NM is really mason lol.

[Elements]

but also maybe rolebocker

[Grib]

Sure wish I could evaluate how likely a third Mason is in this setup. Too bad we didn’t massclaim or anything.

[Grib]

If Bella is a town Vig, and Frog is a town Doctor, and Eira is a town whatever the fuck, and NM is a town Mason, then all of the mafia are in Grib/Aisa/Elements/Enchant. Period. I don’t know about anyone else, maybe Bella has her reasons, but whether or not I believe in Mason!NM hinges on Eira’s claim, which he isn’t giving, so it’s kind of out of my hands.

[Grib]

I basically have a hard time caring how this elim goes. Sorry.