Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[Kmd4390]

DP, same as yesterday combined with Llama being NK'd.

[Jahudo]

Funny you say I ignored Dukes...compared to who? I stated several times (more that what you indicated) what I didnt like about Dukes. Not sure why you are trying to spin that I ignored him when that isnt the case what so ever.

There was also post 174 but that was day 1 and I was referring to the day 2 wagon. If there were other day 2 posts I must be missing them. I also don't think you ignored Dukes as a player, but I did not see the progression of suspicion from you or any sign or lack of doubt that I think should come before a hammer vote. I left the FoS off wolf because I could trace his growing suspicion.

Also about your hammer, you did say that you would vote in the post before you actually voted. You didn't say if it was a hammer but after wolf's L-1 vote at least Dukes was given some time to give a final post. There wasn't a lot of time given for any L-1 discussion but I felt that with Dukes last post there wasn't much left to discuss. So i'm not suspicious of your timing, but more confused what you were thinking up until your last two posts.

[farside22]

This vote count brought to you by Planet Express.
Planet Express - Our crew is replaceable, your package isn't.

pacman 1 vote: (Kmd4390)

Not voting:

pacman281292
kloud1516
Zorblag
Jahudo
wolframnhart
Drunken Piper
Porochaz

Day 4 deadline is December 4th, 10:30am PST

With 8 alive it will take 5 to lynch

[wolframnhart]

@wolf: Why did you refrain from judging pacman until your vote on Dukes? If you FoS'ed Dukes early on in day 2, why did you not pursue him more up until your vote? Why did you largely ignore Dukes?

It wasn't that I was refraining from judging pacman, it's just that i was really not getting the votes and scrutiny on him. Dukes was by far to me more scummy then pacman which is why in the end i voted for him. And i wasn't trying to largley ignore dukes, i have been busy with work lately and have been having to play catch up on my games. With everything that had happened up until my vote and the fact that i was trying to answer KMD's question i had summed up my thoughts and voted as i saw accordingly.

[kloud1516]

In the process of rereading. Will get something up shortly.

[Porochaz]

Reread are always good, they make you realize the really obvious stuff that you missed the first go around. I am going to go ahead and

unvote, vote pacman

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In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

When attention Is called to this, he FoSed Poro for seemingly unrelated reasons, and just stated he was confused, thinking that this was a joke instead of anything else. If it was a joke why the need to FoS poro, or even fail to mention it until prompted?

Calls the FoS on poro for doing something “really weird” which never got elaborated on. Still little mention of the exchange between the two players at this point.

Now he jumps to the xtoxm = jester conclusion. While I guess this finally gives some input to the conflict that is occurring, it really doesn’t add anything. He spends more of the time at the end of D1 mocking xtoxm instead of working on any theories, or even responding the ideas that I was creating.

Today we started off with the “damn” post which is a weak tell, but it still sets me off a bit when there is a comment of how the night panned out without any real backing to it, such as claiming a kill as from a vig, or protecting (or more in this case RBing) a kill.

Most of the case that pacman uses against Dukes is weak at best (which is ironic since that is the reasoning he voted Dukes), and OMGUS at worst (which it is more to me). The vote is also made for “strawmanning” which I really don’t think occurred in this case. I am bad with the word, but have never seen it used on the first post a player makes in a game, even more so a joke post.

Later pacman goes on to say that his FoS on Poro was due to the fact that he did not understand his post against xtoxm early on, the one that he thought was a breadcrumb. This doesn’t hold up with his explaination of people later, in which he lists me, DP and kloud as “don’t understand” and no read on kmd and wolf (wolf is interesting here since I had pressed him already at this point). Using similar logic he should of FoSed us all at some point if he is confused.

So I feel that pac is using some very weak reasoning to be voting for Dukes, that stems mostly from an OMGUS origin. When you add on the fact that he has avoided most of the topics of conversation for the day, both the poro/xtoxm exchange for the early stages, and my attack on the players who I believe acted subpar and tried to set up D2 lynch before D1 completed.

Also I know this is going to get asked so I will say it now. I still consider wolf a decent lynch for today. At this point though pacman is looking like a better lynch.

First part: I didn't pay attention to Xtoxm's claim because I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. When attention turned to him, I still thought that he would be rather a vi (no offense) or a jester or a mafiate making a really weird gambit.
Second part: My FoS on Poro was half a joke, half a very weird thought.
Third part: Read the post of the FoS. "That is called a joke, as you said from your own post".
Fourth part: A SK claim is very weird, and I didn't call it; the claim did really confuse me.
Fifth part: Does not compute... *explodes*
NOTE: This is not a breadcrumb. Seriously. I just didn't understand that part.
Sixth part: Dukes started attacking me due to my votes day 1, which were made just ON THE SAME POST. He said that I did make a vote to the first person who asked me about that: FAKE.
I also think that I misused the term; it means something like the take of a little part of the post ignoring the other part and making a weak attack based on that.
Please explain why do you think my case on Dukes is OMGUS on the worst case.
Seventh part: You didn't understand what I meant on wolf; I meant that I had the same on him than on you, i.e, I didn't understand well in him... maybe due to stupidness (from me)?
The part on Poro looks like a misunderstanding from me; Xtoxm did really confuse me... ouch...
I had no read on Kmd because I had no read on GW and because Kmd did just enter to the game.
I didn't get the last part of that paragraph. what did you try to say?
Final part: Holy jamaican limbo stick! What did you mean with that?! I didn't pay many attention to Poro/Xtoxm because that got me really insane...

sigh... blue screened 3 times making this post, I give up. I hate this post its a very weak defense to some quite large points, the fact you didnt pay attention to the largest part of the early game is scummy to me.

vote pacman

, your other posts as Ive said before havent been much better

[Zorblag]

Also, my response to your vote happened directly after you cast the vote for me. There was no need to worry about waiting for that when you left for Chicago. You made no mention of that when you unvoted but you do seem to be citing it now.

to be safe and while away from my shack..
I will unvote until I get back

Made no mention my ass, "To be safe" while I was away, I unvoted so my vote was not unattended. Things can happen very fast in this game. Unless I am absoutely certian about my vote and suspicions I always unvote if I am leaving.

My problem with you is that you are implying that a.) you found my unvote strange and b.) You attempt to deflect saying I havent suspected anyone else. "As he hasn't done anything to implicate anyone else since voting" I hadnt done anything else because I was busy...you posted that on 299, I voted you on 280, I unvoted and left on 298...I only really suspected you at that point and did not feel it important to talk about anyone else.

I also note that Dukes defends you with a "to be honest" comment in 282 when you are voting him. Interesting enough your vote is on Dukes, but you are supporting a Pac lynch(334). trying to gain support to get heat off your buddy? But wanting to test the waters first so it doesnt look scummy?

I stand by my statement that you didn't mention the reason you gave after the fact for unvoting when you did. You made no mention at the time of being concerned that I hadn't had a chance to reply to your previous vote. You did mention that you were unvoting to be safe and I don't object to that overly (which I think I already addressed) but you never mentioned wanting to give me a chance to respond to you before you left.

As for my inability to tell what you're thinking, apparently I'm not alone in that as Jahudo has just said:

So i'm not suspicious of your timing, but more confused what you were thinking up until your last two posts.

It doesn't make you scum but the lack of transparency isn't something that I see helping us too much at this point.

On the issue of the votes that we have this day I do probably support the pacman281292 lead more than any other that we might have as I still have the same issues with his play that I did at the end of the day yesterday. We probably want to start being more cautious with our votes now as I agree that what Jahudo said at the start of the day:

Does anyone else think we should decide a way to popcorn roles throughout today, given that if there might be 3 scum (I doubt it though) we would need to get one of them today or at night.

As of now I actually have a strong suspicion that there shouldn't be three scum (for reasons that I'd rather not talk about so that it doesn't provide them with more information than they already have) but I don't know this for sure. If there are three scum then a mislynch today could lose the game for us.

My top scum suspects at this point are pacman281292 (who I'm still waiting to hear from for the day) and to a much lesser degree Drunken Piper which might be a reaction to how he's dealt with me as much as the lack of feel that I'm getting for him.

I plan on holding off on voting until I've got more to work with on the grounds that we might be at LyLo without having realized it. If it weren't for that I'd probably be voting for pacman281292 at this point as a carry over from yesterday.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Drunken Piper]

thinking that the Pac case was weak
those who were on it, reeked.

(guzzle)

So i'm not suspicious of your timing, but more confused what you were thinking up until your last two posts.

Well I was suspicious of Zor and Dukes..and some degree Llama. My vote on Dukes was 50% suspicion of him and 50% disliking those on Pac's wagon. I felt some of Llama's case was suspicious...what really put me over the edge was Zor's post about not being against the Pac wagon...I mean where the shit did that come from?...I read that, like he was trying to test the waters to divert the Dukes wagon to Pac. If he got something going, he could switch his vote off his partner last minute suspicion free...if he didnt get something going, he still looks ok because he was on a scum lynch....it just looked sketchy to me.

LIke I said, I dont understand why Zorscum would want to jump off any town wagon...or at least test the waters.

SO now I am at a loss...DO I think Zor is scum now?...well, it doesnt make any sense why he would want to jump off the Dukes wagon..do I think Pac is scum?...well, I dont know at this point.. I dont think he has been helpful, but at this point I dont know who is partner could be. If pac is scum, Zor could be his partner, but it seems awful ballsy to make that play at the end of the Dukes lynch.

going to have to reread a bit more..and look at who was on what wagon when. like to hear from pac today.

Mod: think a game prod is in order...your game seems to be crawling

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[Jahudo]

what really put me over the edge was Zor's post about not being against the Pac wagon...I mean where the shit did that come from?...I read that, like he was trying to test the waters to divert the Dukes wagon to Pac.

Maybe Zorblag could look pro-town by trying to avoid a mislynch and maybe he was already thinking about who alot of people were going to suspect the next day and wanted to be a part of that wagon. These are things that scum could want to do but I also did not see a strong enough attempt from him to try and avoid the mislynch. I also could see him as town accepting most of the points that other people had against Dukes and pacman, which will make you want to get rid of both of them.

DP: From your perspective on who looks scummy and town, do you have any idea why Llama was nk'ed and what WIFOM if anything that presents? I actually found him very pro-town and I don't see it as coming from someone he suspected in that poro must be scum cop investigation.

In the process of rereading. Will get something up shortly.

Kloud: What have you been thinking from your re-read?

It wasn't that I was refraining from judging pacman, it's just that i was really not getting the votes and scrutiny on him.

Was there anything about the votes and scrutiny that looked scum driven or do you see some or all of it as misguided? Where do you feel these occured?

@Group: Have you looked at all into pacman's meta? I know a little of it but will probably try and find comparisons in more games.

[farside22]

I will do prods Monday. Thanks!!

[pacman281292]

*long post from me, deleted because it was waay big*
sigh... blue screened 3 times making this post, I give up. I hate this post its a very weak defense to some quite large points, the fact you didnt pay attention to the largest part of the early game is scummy to me.

vote pacman

, your other posts as Ive said before havent been much better

@Poro: Please read my latter posts, where I explained the meaning of that. OK?

hmm... I hate this... but I have something important to say; I have a power role, that can be useful to some extent (despite of being partly suicidal), and I have some (little) info. Yeah, this info is not that useful, but...
OK, I'll roleclaim. I hope this is useful.
I'm Hermes Conrad, limbo player (aka hider). I didn't use my action on night 1, I limbo'd behind Jahudo night 2 (and I survived as you can see). If farside used the "official" verion of the Hider role, then it means that Jahudo is innocent (otherwise, I would be dead); if not... then I don't care.
I'm protown.
Thoughts? Wagons on me? Decide...

[Drunken Piper]

saw this claim was to come.
didnt bring it up, because I thought it was dumb.

(sip)

I saw you bread crumb Hermes yesterday, but didnt want to mention it. Also, i dont think a rolename in any way represents an alignment. I dont understand why your claiming right off the bat. I also think it is convenient stating that the most obvious pro-town player in the game is cleared. the problem with your claim is everytime I have seen a hider, it states that they will die (or not die) if hiding behind scum...without quoting your PM, are you saying that your PM does not state that? Another problem I have with your first post today, is that you are not addressing anything else..not Dukes lynch...the fact you have two votes on you...not even who you think is scum...why is that?

Maybe Zorblag could look pro-town by trying to avoid a mislynch and maybe he was already thinking about who alot of people were going to suspect the next day and wanted to be a part of that wagon. These are things that scum could want to do but I also did not see a strong enough attempt from him to try and avoid the mislynch. I also could see him as town accepting most of the points that other people had against Dukes and pacman, which will make you want to get rid of both of them.

DP: From your perspective on who looks scummy and town, do you have any idea why Llama was nk'ed and what WIFOM if anything that presents? I

actually found him very pro-town and I don't see it as coming from someone he suspected in that poro must be scum cop investigation

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Jah, I am not sure what you are trying to say in the bolded sentence. Any guess why Llama was night killed goes down into WIFOM territory. There could be a hundred different reasons...he was riding Pac a lot..maybe Pac was getting rid of a threat. Maybe Pac is not scum, and scum wanted it too look like Pac was getting rid of a threat. Maybe Llama breadcrumbed something (which apparently many people in this game thinks it is wise to do)...maybe scum felt Llama looked the most protown...maybe Llama had a meta on one of the scum..maybe maybe maybe...

if you take the kill at face value...for some reason, Llama threatened the scum...or that kill would help scum out the most.

Why do you think Llama was killed?

more to come (scummy and town) when I can reread...

[kloud1516]

Okay, I have read over the thread, and have found several things I believe to be noteworthy, which I will elaborate on momentarily. I would like to start off by saying that I am honestly dumbfounded by the fact that Dukes was town, as his posts just screamed scummy to be. This being said, I believe we may be able to learn some things from the mislynch, though I do not know exactly what at this moment. I suggest we proceed through today cautiously and analyze the posts of everyone, looking for possible connections and making known factors of others' posts that seem off, as even the smallest bits of content may serve as an integral part of catching scum today.

Now providing my findings/opinions:

Zorblag~

OK, the game seems to be dragging a bit at this point. Xtoxm doesn't seem as though he's going to be a willing tool for the town if he is a SK (which I still don't fully buy.) At this point I won't have any real issues with him getting lynched at the end of the day.

On the other hand, lynching him right now means that we've

gained very little information and go into the second day giving scum the advantage of initiative

so let's see what we can do to

talk about other things that might lead to useful information down the line.

Hmm, a couple things might be worth drawing attention to. Xtoxm seems to have attempted to self hammer and might be claiming cult now. I suspect everyone caught that but it's been largely ignored.

(Why would cult try to get themselves killed anymore than SK would?)

I do not disagree with the initial premiss posed by Zorblag on Day 1 with the first quoted post. Continuing discussion even after xtoxm's SK claim had been debated or referenced by every player in the game (I believe) would have helped to acquire more information to have at the town's disposal going into Day 2. He advises that we begin looking at others, in order to try to find more evidence and analyze responses from players. I find no problem with these suggestions, as they all would have indeed been beneficial to our cause. This being said, the fact that he then drops the question within the parentheses of the second quote does not sit well with me, as it seems in one breath he is advocating further investigation, while with the other he is posing a WIFOM question that would only derail suggested investigation.

Stating this question would not have upheld, at least in my opinion, his insistence on acquiring more information to use, for there is little that town can discern from debating why a possible cultist would want to get themselves killed. There is a stark contradiction between the ideas within these paragraphs, a difference that I find to be unnerving, as it seems that Zorblag is trying to make himself look more pro-town by suggesting we get more information, but then slips in the last sentence, which would work to do exactly the opposite of what he wanted players to do.

My thoughts on the matter only become stronger when adding in further comments from 161.

I know my jester speculation was a stretch. Here's an even bigger one. Is there any chance Xtoxm has some sort of pathalogical liar post restriction and that he's showing us with actions that he doesn't get a vote?

Perhaps a more plausible explanation would be that convicted felons don't get to vote (at least in "A Head in the Polls".)

In any case, I'm worried that we're still making assumptions that perhaps we shouldn't.

He wants us to gain information, but then employs trains of thought such as these that are simply speculation void of any reasoning (at least that I can see). He acknowledges his jester theory was pushing the limits, but then ventures to state two more suggestions that pull the rubber band of speculation even more taut. Liar PR? Felons voting restriction? Where do these come from? How do such suggestions dovetail the idea of getting more information? From this post, the only outcome I can see from pursuing such paths of thought would be large arguments and discussions based on speculation that would both detract from scumhunting and impede upon any further information.

You finish this post by stating that we are all making assumptions that we shouldn't be. If you are so concerned about jumping to illogical conclusions and debating upon speculation and pure assumption, then why devote this whole post to posing theory void of evidence?

I can't say that I'm thrilled with how this game is going so far. Apparently Xtoxm was the SK he claimed he was. Unless there's some twist involving him later on (and that doesn't seem too likely) I'm not at all convinced just now that he was playing by rule 2.

2) Play to win, but also to have fun. See rule 1.

I take that trying to win to be something the players have all agreed to do

when I'm trying to figure out the cause for their actions. For a one person faction to die that willingly (going so far as to self-hammer) the first day does not count as them playing to win.

In this case he's done even more harm though.

The way he's chosen not to win arbitrarily hurts the town and helps the scum despite the fact that he wasn't aligned to either.

1) How is this relevant to the game? Delving into the psyche/mentality of an already-lynched player does not help when searching for scum at all in my opinion. Granted, it makes you appear to actually be contributing, but such investigation is inadvisable, as what can we as town gain from looking into reasons for his actions when he is no longer able to respond. Following paths to dead ends wont help us hit scum.

2) I believe others have already addressed this: the fact that we have eliminated a SK is just as much a bonus as eliminating scum, as we have gotten rid of a lone player whose purpose was to kill and survive. Are you saying that a non-town aligned killing role being eliminated from the game is not beneficial? SKs are considered scum as well in my book, as they are not town-aligned, so getting rid of the SK helps town. How does lynching the SK help scum?

Of course, when I say he hurt the town and helped the scum I have to be fair here.

We followed his lead and went straight for the quick lynch on day one without discussion of much of anything.

We got minimal posts from several people and now have to try to figure out what's going on without the benefit of interactions we would have gotten on a typical day one.

We did exactly what I warned we were doing (though I didn't make nearly enough of an issue of it so I get blame for this as well.)

1) My response to the first bolded section would be earlier opinions stated within this post, i.e. those addressing post 161 and those just above this quoted section.

2) There is something about this I do not like at all. To me, this statement comes off as somewhat of a "I told you so, now look what we have gotten ourselves into," sort of mentality, which is not helpful at all. Sure, you throw in that you are to blame as well, for you say you didn't press the thought as much as you should have. I agree with you, for you were too busy providing WIFOM and speculation to actually keep to what you are trying to say here. This once again looks like an attempt to appear more pro-town, by making it seem as though you are trying to pick up the pieces of a disastrous Day 1 (I say this, because from your tone this is what I feel you are insinuating) and, while doing so, publicly claim that you should have done more to prevent the problem.

So now, here we are in day 2. We did give initiative to the scum and they used it to take out our doc.

If we're going to pull a town victory out of this we're going to have be more aware as we go forward.

We've got a couple places to start from today (but not nearly as many as we should) and I'll take a look at them this afternoon and see where my suspicions lie but I'm really hoping that we don't continue to play this game like we have so far.

We also took out the SK, which is beneficial to the town cause as well. I agree with the bolded section, for I too have said this myself, but coming from you, based off of reasoning and statements I have already made, I feel that this is just empty encouragement to make yourself look better.

HoS: Zorblag

There are still others I wish to look at more closely, which is why I did not place my vote on you. I want to review the reasonings for suspecting Pacman again, and also plan to look for connections between players in hopes of finding a possible scum pair. If I had to vote now, it would be for you, Zorblag, but Day 3 has only just gotten underway, and I do not want to be hasty with my vote.

[wolframnhart]

Was there anything about the votes and scrutiny that looked scum driven or do you see some or all of it as misguided? Where do you feel these occured?

I think them to be misguided. Dukes wagon was probably the most scum driven, he was the easier player to get people behind because lets face it, he was scummy, just not scum.

[Porochaz]

unvote pacman

I saw your breadcrumb as well however I didnt really have any thoughts towards your alignment because of it. I have to consider your claim I dont neccasserily think youd fake claim that.

[Kmd4390]

unvote

While character doesn't say anything about alignment, the claim looks ok. Jahudo has seemed pretty protown. I need to do a serious re-read now. I think I'll look at the Dukes wagon because you can usually find a scum or 2 by looking at a Day 1 town lynch.

[farside22]

Everyone has posted within the requirements. If anyone person needs a prod please put the person you wish me to prod.
Thank you.

[Drunken Piper]

funny I was the only one who had questions about the claim,
and people unvoted who had much blame.

(sip)

why does it bother me that I am the only one who questioned the claim and I didnt even have a vote on Pac?...But Poro and KMD remove their votes so fast. Everytime I have been a Hider or Modded a game with a Hider I provided the information whether hiding behind a mafia member is fatal or not. He comes out and claims that the most protown player is town and people just eat it up without question. He doesnt scum hunt. he doesnt provide his thoughts on anything else....he doesnt comment on yesterday..

Poro and KMD, you two were supposedly pretty sure he was scum, why the change of heart if both of you believe that a role name does not reflect alignment?

Pac, why have you not commented on yesterday, provided in thoughts on who you think are scum, or scum hunted today? Why did you think it was a good idea to claim just now? Why do you think it was a good idea to come out and "clear" Jahudo if you werent sure about "your role" without asking the mod first? If you are really a hider, can you please ask the mod? Can you please provide your top two scum list and why?

Zor, Pac and I were in your top two suspects...he has claimed "hider"...your thoughts now?

[Porochaz]

Because regardless to me, if he has a claim its wise in my view to take a step back and view the claim for what it is, this is what Im doing now. I may think he's scum but if he's claimed then I should review my case and be totally sure before I advocating a lynch on a powerrole. Because if he's telling the truth then it would be very bad for the town if we went through with his lynch. I haven't had a change of heart but claimng a powerrole changes things. I don't necasserily believe his claim but right at the moment in this day hes not a good lynch.

Also pac, why did you not use your power n1?

[Jahudo]

@Group but particularly kmd, poro and DP: what do you feel about this suggestion and doing it either today or tomorrow?:

Does anyone else think we should decide a way to popcorn roles throughout today, given that if there might be 3 scum (I doubt it though) we would need to get one of them today or at night.

I do not think it will or should be the main motivating factor to clear or vote someone, but it may help find inconsistencies in how we've been playing so far and create some speculation which I give an example of below.

Everytime I have been a Hider or Modded a game with a Hider I provided the information whether hiding behind a mafia member is fatal or not. He comes out and claims that the most protown player is town and people just eat it up without question. He doesnt scum hunt. he doesnt provide his thoughts on anything else....he doesnt comment on yesterday..

Is there a different version of hider with different rules than the "official hider" that pacman is talking about?

I think the revealed characters alignments make sense in hindsight. You'd assume Fry, Leela and other Planet Express workers to be town and would be huge gambits for scum to claim unless they've found out enough information already, which I doubt.

Another possibility I'm thinking of is a way to be a protown player but play as scum or third party. If you look at the picture on the front page, it shows Hermes with a brain slug. In fact, Hermes is the character that is associated with the brain slug the most, so I wouldn't count out pacman being Hermes with the brain slug making him do whatever the brain slug wanted. He tried to get Fry to wear a brain slug in the show right? I guess that's a cult leader but now I'm really speculating.

I think it's more important that pacman just comes in and claims but doesn't comment on the game or give his thoughts on anyone else, besides I guess saying I didn't kill him last night.

poro: Do you think pacman's role is all that powerful now that he's claimed?

[Porochaz]

depends on the specifics of his role. He'll keep hiding behind people so wont get NK'ed, if he dies through hiding behind mafia then the longer he survives the more innocents we have. He has a powerful role if its true. If mafias dont kill him when he hides behind them then its less so.

Tomorrow yes, today no. The presense of an SK wants me to think there are 2 scum and a SK, not 3 scum and a SK. I think everyone claiming tomorrow is a good idea if we lynch town, due to us probably being in lylo. If tonight we lynch scum then I wouldnt. This is based on my thoughts that 3 scum/1 SK would be quite unbalanced. If someone else has a varying opinion then please state it.

[Drunken Piper]

twiddle dee dum, twiddle dee Pac.
hoping he comes back.

(sip)

@Group but particularly kmd, poro and DP: what do you feel about this suggestion and doing it either today or tomorrow?:

Does anyone else think we should decide a way to popcorn roles throughout today, given that if there might be 3 scum (I doubt it though) we would need to get one of them today or at night.

if we are have a mafia team of 3, we are at LYLO (assuming they can get a kill off which is pretty likely with a doc and RB dead)...if we have a mafia team of 2 and a SK, we have another day(if we dont bring down scum today)...and jesus christ I forgot about the brain slug, god, if we have a cult we are in trouble...I doubt we had a mafia team, SK, and cult.

I dont want to discuss too much about Hider variants until Pac answers my questions...If he is lying, I dont want to make his lie any easier.

I dont mind a claim, though, i would rather do it tomorrow just dont want to give away anything more than we need to WHEN we need to.

However

, if we claim at LYLO (unless we are at LYLO now)...it might come down to a he said, she said type situation. If we claim before a LYLO situation, we have more time to evaulate the claims with investigative roles...

However

, we exppose those roles and might give mafia an easy win....jesus, I guess I am on the fence on this one. I will claim if EVERYONE agrees to claim...but again, it has its pros and cons. I think if someone has a result that is important..that SHOULD come out today, but a full claim might be super risky

I would also rather add one more factor to the popcorn claim...dicecorn (official copy right) claim. We popcorn claim, using dice...lets say I start, I claim, then I make a list (giving every remaining unclaimed player a number) and role the dice...that person then claims and does the same. makes claim completely random and I can not think of a way scum could control the claim order aspect of that (assuming scum want to go last to be able to adjust their claim.)

at the very least...we could claim role names today...that might stir up some filth..(example: 2 Fry claims)

[wolframnhart]

I agree that we could have a 2 mafia and SK set up here, but i also don't think we should discount the possibility of a 3 mafia and SK set up. In Meekrat Manor Mafia where i was scum, we had a three scum and sk setup, so it is not unheard of.

[Zorblag]

I think that Kloud1516 is getting a scum read from my desire to get more information out of the conversation during a day than I thought that we did on day one. That's fine but I'll give another shot at explaining what I was talking about when I made the posts that he has quoted.

On the other hand, lynching him right now means that we've gained very little information and go into the second day giving scum the advantage of initiative so let's see what we can do to talk about other things that might lead to useful information down the line.

This sentiment sums up my feelings about everything else that that the rest of the posts you talked about are going to reference. It doesn't seem as though you're taking issue to the sentiment here as otherwise I don't think I'd be able to convince you of anything.

You do a fair amount of picking apart things that I said in Post 161 but I think that you've lost the context that it was made in. Here's the post in it's entirety.

Hmm, a couple things might be worth drawing attention to. Xtoxm seems to have attempted to self hammer and might be claiming cult now. I suspect everyone caught that but it's been largely ignored. (Why would cult try to get themselves killed anymore than SK would?)

Also, we might or might not be in twilight. It's been a bit and farside22 was very careful to include in her rules:

12) A lynch will require the votes of a majority of players. When a majority is reached, no further votes/unvotes will be counted. If majority is not reached by deadline the person with the highest votes is lynched.

Be aware that the numbers may be misleading when it comes to votes.

She then made a point of asking us later to:

Please, please read the rules carefully especially the rules I put in bold.

I don't think that we should assume that today is over until we get an end of day message.

I know my jester speculation was a stretch. Here's an even bigger one. Is there any chance Xtoxm has some sort of pathalogical liar post restriction and that he's showing us with actions that he doesn't get a vote?

Perhaps a more plausible explanation would be that convicted felons don't get to vote (at least in "A Head in the Polls".)

In any case, I'm worried that we're still making assumptions that perhaps we shouldn't.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I posted this after Xtoxm had apparently hammered himself. I waited a while and the day didn't end so I was trying to make sure that we weren't assuming that we were really in twilight when we might not have been. If the day hadn't ended shortly after then there would have to have been some reason it hadn't; I was throwing out a couple guesses.

As for questioning why cult would self hammer any more than a SK I was still trying to figure out a way for Xtoxm to be helping his team. I had trouble believing that someone would play as poorly as Xtoxm seems to have so I was still trying to find alternate solutions that might have merit. It seems I was wrong, but my frustration at Xtoxm's play does come up in the next post that you mention.

176 was my first post of day 2 and was made as much out of frustration as anything else. I've said since and I'll say it again now that I wasn't trying with that post to indicate that killing the SK was a bad move for the town. Killing the SK was a good thing to do. What was troubling was that we hadn't had enough other good discussion in my opinion. It might not have done us any good but I don't think it could have hurt us. I did look at Dukes some on day one after post 128 but I really didn't do enough to get attention away from where it was narrowly focused. That's why I accept my part of the blame for our lack of scrutiny for most of the players on day one.

I don't know whether any of that will resonate with you or not but that's why I made the posts that I did. I'm glad to hear that you agree that we need to look carefully at everyone today but I think that you're taking 3 of my posts and building a somewhat out of context case from them. I'm all for everyone including myself getting gone over closely; I'd love to hear what you think of other players if you've taken a look at them as well.

There are other things that I should address but this post is long enough for now so I'll stop here and post again on other topics shortly.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

pacman281292's claim is an interesting one because of it's timing as much as anything else. If it's the standard role as provided on the wiki I'm going to have to think some about how I think that it's best used but I can potentially see why one would claim it directly after it's use. I'd also like to hear why pacman281292 didn't use his power the first night (though I can take a good guess at an answer I'd like to hear it from him.) I would say that I'm at a wait for more information stage with pacman281292 at this time; I see no good reason to believe or disbelieve his claim.

I find it unlikely that pacman281292 is being controlled by a brain slug cult at this point. I did bring up the possibility of a brain slug cult the first day but once Xtoxm flipped SK I decided that it was unlikely that there would be a scum team, a cult team and an SK (unless the cult is pro-town and gives mason abilities or some such thing but there wouldn't be a reason offhand to think that the brain slugs should be pro planet express.) It's still possible but I find a cult unlikely for now.

As for the potential of popcorning roles today I'll go on record as saying that I don't think it's necessary yet as I think that we're not at LyLo. If we decide we want to go ahead and do it as a group I'm not opposed but I certainly will want to say something before we start. I'd rather not say more for now as again, I don't want to give the scum any information that I haven't already.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh