Mini 702--Serum & Steel(The rust has settled/Game Over)

[Wall-E]

That's what I was thinking, but I'll wait to hear from the mod rather than suppose.

[CF Riot]

CF Riot: Can I get a response from you on post 307?

It's in 324. I think we shouldn't synth me and you think we shouldn't synth you. Since I am me, I know at the very least my position is good. Yours could be, or it could be bad. Do you understand what I'm saying?
----
@Ortolan I don't understand anything in the first part of post 326. Can you reword that?

The difference is that I *believe* both their claims, or at least have been presented no good reason to doubt them.

I already explained, you won't have a good reason to doubt anyone today. It doesn't matter who claims, or which status they claim. They will all be equally believable. Therefore, this is not a good excuse to absolve Wall-E.

why do you not believe Wall-E's claim to be flesh?

I am of the opposite school from you. I doubt until I have a reason to believe. You believe until you have a reason to doubt. I don't see anything backing up Wall-E's flesh-claim so I don't believe it.

If you compile everything I've said so far, (and this is the point I really want you to understand) basically what I'm getting down to is this: a person claiming flesh when faced with a Myco-wagon should not stop us from Mycoing them. There is absolutely

no

drawback in this game to claim flesh. Therefore, any steelscum (or fleshscum for that matter) would automatically claim flesh in an attempt to shift the Mycovote to someone else, under the pretense that it will be "wasted" on them. This is why a flesh-claim shouldn't affect a myco-vote. If you don't want to Myco Wall-E anyways, then that's okay, but you should not decide not to Myco him

because

he claimed flesh.

The sweet-talking thing refers to a statement Wall-E made. He said something along the lines of "if Riot can sweet-talk me into mycoing someone else I'll listen."

Wall-E is a better choice than me because I want to Myco Wall-E and I don't want to Myco me. That is the only reason. I personally think Wall-E's flip-flopping should indicate scumminess, but if you don't think so then you should see us as equal candidates.

Also, what you have said is ambiguous,

It's supposed to be.

are you claiming to be steel here?

Stop role-fishing.

It is possible (but as I already said kind of unlikely as the risks would seem to outweighh the benefits) that Wall-E is scum metal claiming flesh townie to avoid suspicion

For the last time there are

NO RISKS

in claiming flesh-town. It is absolutely safe. The only way to prove someone is lying about being flesh is to lynch them, which amounts to witch-trials because they're dead if they're innocent and dead if they're guilty.

I think I should also defend Seraphim at this point.

I am not really "defending" him,

Do I have to say anything?

The reason why the consistency of Sera's bandwagon doesn't matter is because I never said "Porkens I agree with you" and Porkens never said "Riot I agree with you." We are on the same wagon for different reasons. This is not uncommon. I would love for you to explain to me why this is scummy.

Also, you're dancing around with words. You say you think Pork and I are buddies, but you're not suggesting it, but it is a possibility that you considered entertaining the idea of possibly postulating. Either you think we are, or you don't. You can't attack me because of a link you see to Pork then say you're not calling us buddies. That doesn't hold.

You are rabidly defending Wall-E for no reason. I just want you to know that.
----

I guess asking for a full claim will happen after the myco'ing, right?

No, why? What do you mean here? Why would Wall-E full claim? (or anyone technically...grumblegrumble.)

If we myco a steel player, we will see the results of stripping of his unkillability.

No we won't.

If that were not the case, it would be an extremely easy out for scummer, and they could just all claim fleshie, and would not have to answer about being steel.

That is what is going to happen, and I've been saying that all along.
----

A bunch of people posted while I was writing this but I must go to work now so I'll read later.

[Wall-E]

TE's not seeing the game from that perspective, CF Riot. In his town mind, he's steel and wants to believe claiming matters, and in his scum mind he's pushing an agenda. Either way, you won't convince him without some proof, I think.

I think you're right about him being innocent-until-proven-guilty while you seem to be more guilty-until-proven-innocent. Personally, I'm the former type of player as well. The way I see it, the majority of players are town, so I start them off at about 15% scummy in my mind and jack them up or down from that standpoint.

But ce'st la vie.

[Timeater]

Mod:I already answered this question in post 326, but I'll answer it again. You get no knowledge of what they were before they went in, but they'll definitely be flesh coming out.

Wall-E:There has got to be a better way to phrase that.

Fuckin A, right? Seriously I am going to get agitated if it turns out we get absolutely zero information from a myco. I was under the asusmption that if we myco a steel player, we will know that he was stripped of his steelines because we would get some sort of flavor text describing the process. And if we put in a fleshie, nothing would happen in said flavour text because he's fleshie.

CF Riot:

Timeater wrote:
If we myco a steel player, we will see the results of stripping of his unkillability.

No we won't.TE wrote:
If that were not the case, it would be an extremely easy out for scummer, and they could just all claim fleshie, and would not have to answer about being steel.

That is what is going to happen, and I've been saying that all along.

I really have a hard time believing that. And would be kind of dissapointed in the setup if thats the case.

[Timeater]

I'd would also like to point out I claimed with the above assumption ^ in mind.

I guess asking for a full claim will happen after the myco'ing, right?

No, why? What do you mean here? Why would Wall-E full claim? (or anyone technically...grumblegrumble.)

Assuming something happens in the myco process.

[Wall-E]

We still don't know either way. Let's let the Mod tell us.

[Wall-E]

"Because I'm town" is never a good reason, Porkens, and your counter attack is unrelated to your vote on me and is OMGUS.

[CF Riot]

We've been focused so much on the serum and the myco the actual part of this that matters - the lynch - seems to be lowest priority.

I think this is partially because most agree on a Sera lynch and Sera hasn't posted since the 7th.
----
It doesn't matter how many ways you form the question the answer is always going to be the same. Why is it so hard to believe? You put

anyone

in the synth, the next day we'll get the mod saying "So-and-so got put in the synth so he's flesh." That's all. There is no way to prove someone is lying about being steel/flesh without trying to lynch them. Therefore, Wall-E's flesh-claim means

nothing

to me.
----

Mod:

If Tuber is not getting replaced, can we undo the majority serum vote on him by unvoting/voting a new candidate?

If our random serum technique gets us a serum on someone that's not even here N1 I reserve the right to be the very first person to say "I told you so." Everyone else just has to wait.

[ortolan]

ortolan, I don't see why you are defending wall-e so strongly, the only proof you have to go on is that he said he was flesh and town, not even a role pm. you're so willing to take his word on the matter simply because you ASSUME from TE's pm that most townies are flesh, so by that thinking anyone who just says "hey I'm not metal" should be cleared.

It's just a case of outguess the mod, and a poor one at that. just by the law of averages town is likely to have as many if not more metals than scum have.

I guess I'm just tired of you stating that as fact and no one calling you on it.

I believe I have mentioned in every post that it is assuming they are telling the truth. I have also mentioned I have no reason to doubt their claims at this stage, and thus reason as I did.

And I don't agree that the law of averages applies here. Unless the scum have 1+ abilities which can remove steel it would be very unfair for them- they don't have a mycosynth of their own, and assume for example there's like 3 metal townies in the end game- they're not going to be able to kill anyone. So yes, I think scum are more likely to be metal.

CF Riot: point taken about defending Wall-E, and Seraphim, but I'd like to think my level of sympathy with them in my posts is kind of directly proportional to your level of aggression in attacking them (in true devil's advocate style).

No other comments at this stage.

[Timeater]

Mod: If Tuber is not getting replaced, can we undo the majority serum vote on him by unvoting/voting a new candidate?

Tuber will eventually get replaced or he will eventually show up.

Big,

huge

, stinking,

_FOS_

on you for that.

[Wall-E]

Timeater's claim

I don't know why everyone keeps ignoring this. Assuming Timeater is telling the truth about his role, this _strongly_ implies that all other townies, or at least the majority, are fleshie. Thus they have nothing to lose by being put in the mycosynth.

I don't follow. How does his claim infer he's the only metal town?

Regarding synthing me, I suggest you do not. Wall-E is a much better choice. There is no sweet-talking. I am town, which is all you need to know to not synth me.

This does not follow... Why should we be more likely to think you are town than Wall-E, and even then why is thinking you're town enough reason not to synth you anymore than it is Wall-E?

Saw that.

Why is my wincon somehow predicated upon yours, CF Riot?

You said recently the answer/response was in this post:

However, I think I see what he is saying about declairing night actions after getting the serum.

I don't know if you misunderstood or simply misspoke. Maybe I'm just reading your post other than you meant it. No one should declare their night actions before they do them. It was debated whether or not they should declare night

results

, which I am against but is more plausible.
----

Also, ortolan's logic about who to synth is terrible. You don't want to synth a claimed steel or a claimed flesh, which leads to the question, who do you want to synth? You say the choice is people who haven't claimed, but this seems to advocate everyone claiming their steel/flesh status, which I would argue against. At some point, you have to throw someone in regardless of what they told you they are.

What I meant was they have both made claims and I at this point have no good reasons for doubting either of them. I think if we can get a bandwagon going to synth a different player who then can simply claim metal/flesh then we might have something else to go on.

You have no good reason to doubt anyone that claims either on D1. No matter who you bandwagon or whether they claim steel or flesh, you have equal reason to doubt/believe all of them. Simply wagoning everyone one at a time as they claim would be stupid. Taking it to the 3rd in line is no more logical than going all the way to the end.

coming from the idea that you

believe

that they are metal, there's no point in confirming that they are, especially by wasting a lynch.

This falls into the same category as wanting to synth Wall-E. Do you have any good reason to believe he is scum, and lying about being flesh? If not, why do you advocate wasting a mycosynth on him?

This is not the same in any way. Lynching someone you believe is metal will send the game to night for the scum to kill, while giving the town no information about that persons alignment. If we myco Wall-E, or anyone, we

know

they are now flesh. Whether or not they were before is irrelevant. I do not

believe

Wall-E is flesh like the other people were believing TE was steel. These two situations are only vaguely similar, and I believe my position is perfectly logical.

Regarding synthing me, I suggest you do not. Wall-E is a much better choice. There is no sweet-talking. I am town, which is all you need to know to not synth me.

This does not follow... Why should we be more likely to think you are town than Wall-E,

You shouldn't. You have equally as much reason to believe him as me.

and even then why is thinking you're town enough reason not to synth you anymore than it is Wall-E?

I do not think Wall-E is town. I know that I am. Also, Wall-E said he was okay with being synthed. I am not.

it seems to me, that assuming Wall-E and Timeater are telling the truth about their roles (which obviously is a big assumption),

This

is

a big assumption. Too big at this point. The rest of what you said doesn't matter to me because I do

not

believe Wall-E's flesh claim with no backing.

I think I should also defend Seraphim at this point. Porkens, in the above post, seems to be arguing we should lynch Seraphim because he wants to "waste the synth on Wall-E". However this is exactly the same thing that CF Riot.

Defending Sera on these grounds is defending him because Porkens is not attacking me. Whether or not Porkens is attacking me has nothing to do with Sera's alignment unless you think Porkens is my scum buddy.
----

why you picking on wall-e?

I feel like it. He seemed like a good avenue to pursue upon replacing in. Also, I don't know what my quote has to do with what you said about me. (Post 309)
----
TE's post 322 is exactly why I want to Myco Wall-E.

Can you show me what exactly addresses my question?

[CF Riot]

Geez Wall, what a waste of space.

Why should we be more likely to think you are town than Wall-E,

You shouldn't. You have equally as much reason to believe him as me.

and even then why is thinking you're town enough reason not to synth you anymore than it is Wall-E?

I do not think Wall-E is town. I know that I am. Also, Wall-E said he was okay with being synthed. I am not.

Also, I worded it even more simply later. I want to synth you and you want to synth me. The only thing that makes our situations different is I know my own alignment and not yours.

[Porkens]

"Because I'm town" is never a good reason, Porkens, and your counter attack is unrelated to your vote on me and is OMGUS.

I usually don't make "huh?" posts but...

HUH?

What are you talking about?

[SpyreX]

That is a good question.

[Nicol Bolas]

FOR THE FINAL TIME

If you want to change votes, you must unvote.
If you want to change serums, you must unserum.
If you want to change mycosynths, you must unmycosynth.

Vote Count
Seraphim(3): SpyreX, CF_Riot, TonyMontana
Illumina(1): ortolan
Porkens(1): Seraphim
geraintm(1): Wall-E
Not Voting: Tuberkulos, geraintm, Illumina, Timeater, Porkens, Gremwell

Serum Count
Tuberkulos(7): Timeater, ortolan, TonyMontana, geraintm, Wall-E, Seraphim, Illumina
Porkens(1): SpyreX
Tuberkulos has reached majority of Serum votes.
Not Seruming: CF Riot, Gremwell, Tuberkulos, Porkens


Mycosynth Count
Wall-E(3): CF_Riot, Seraphim, Illumina
CF Riot(2): ortolan, TonyMontana
Timeater(2): SpyreX, Porkens
SpyreX(1): Timeater
Porkens(1): Wall-E
Not Mycosynthing: Gremwell, Tuberkulos, geraintm


To lynch/mycosynth/serum: Seven
Deadline: 11/14

[CF Riot]

Serum: SpyreX

I highly suggest everyone not serum Tuber who isn't even here. Deadline is in two days. I will not random as it's already failed once.

Mod

Sorry the town is so repetitive. I was just wondering if majorities on serums/mycos were final and unchangable like a majority on lynches. Which I now see they are not. I don't know why everyone asked the synth-flesh/steel question so much. I thought you answered clearly the first time. I appreciate the deligence though. You seem to check up on what we're asking/doing quite often.

[Wall-E]

Brown noser. Your push to change the target mere days before deadline is alarming. I admire your balls.

[CF Riot]

I admire your balls.

Most people do.

[Timeater]

Hulk balls.

[SpyreX]

CFR, why me?

[ortolan]

lol, there's absolutely no way I'm changing from the random vote without good reason.

Mod: Are you looking for a replacement for Tuberkulos? His last post anywhere on mafiascum was in this thread, 9 days ago.

[CF Riot]

The "good reason" is if you don't there's a very high chance that the serum will not be used tonight.

@Spyre: Generally pro-town read. I also considered Porkens but I thought it'd be too obvious to serum my buddy D1. (sarcasm)

[Wall-E]

What if it metals him?

The thought occured to me when I first read the setup.

[Timeater]

Dunno why Nat is being anal about the votes

Also what about Wall-E's clarification question?

I honestly think its extremely foolish of CF Riot to not be going along with the random process when 9/12 people were for the process. Or was it 10/12. Anyway. I dont know what he is trying to achieve with his serum vote. He's an experienced player, he knows Tuber will be replaced due to activity, its just a matter of time. Nat clearly states in his rules lurkers will be replaced. Nat: "Inactivity: If your going to be gone for more than 3 days, tell me. Everyone gets a single prod and then I start the replacement search. I am, however, very leniant if you tell about your absense ahead of time."

This sort of haphazard gamble is either A: an extremely naive townie move or B: a scummy move for power.

Spyre is on my short list so I'm not surprised about his nomination.

Unvote

Vote CF_Riot

Unmycosynth

Mycosynth Wall-E

[SpyreX]

Ahh, CFR - I like the way you think. Such buddies we are.

Unserum, Serum: SpyreX