Open 99: Mayo Clinic (Game Over!) before 703

[Nameless]

Wall-E, are you going to give any specific evidence for that accusation or just hope that nobody looks too closely at it?

[charter]

What are we supposed to do, just take the onslaught of terrible logic being hurled around here like a baby fighting Tyson?

[Nameless]

I really hope you plan on answering my question too, Charter. And explaining why you'll consider GK scum if somebody ELSE claims they randomly protected.

[Mana_Ku]

GnK, my opinion is that town shouldn't put too much attention into defending. It's the job of the town too catch scum. If that means that you have to die, but due to putting more attention into scumhunting than defending, you have done a great job (with the exception of causing a mislynch ) in giving your thoughts which could give the town a better idea of who to lynch and for the vigs who to target. That's the reason why I want to know other players their opinion.
About your Wall-E comment, I once read someone saying that as well. That a certain player defended the possible lynch candidate in order to look town. I don't think it's a valid argument as Wall-E could actually see you as town, while being town as well.

Ok, in a way, I did defend Charter or at least his actions. I see what you are getting at. Not sure what more to say except that we aren't scum buddies.

So now all we've got to do is lynch Charter. If he turns up scum, then KMD isn't as he said he isn't scumbuddies with Charter. So, let's all join Wall-E in to

Unvote Vote Charter

Big, giant for KMD's quote

Also

unvote

as I haven't a thing against Charter. Just being way too sarcastic again.

Tony and orange need to start contributing ANYTHING towards scumhunting in the next RL day or two or I'll swap my vote to one of them.

Noted. If you wonder why, start counting.

OP, your thoughts please.

I need to look more into KMD, Charter and Nameless

[Mirth]

"There has been an outbreak of Communism on Ward 3. Are you all keeping your bodily fluids to yourselves?"

VOTE COUNT

GnKoihi - 3 - [Stef, Kmd, charter]

charter - 2 - [Wall-E, GnKoichi]

Nameless - 1- [TonyMontana]
Stef - 1 - [Puta Puta]
Kiro - 1 - [orangepenguin]
TonyMontana - 1 - [Kiro]
Wall-E - 1 - [Nameless]

Not Voting - 2 - [Plum, Mana_Ku]

[Stef]

I like my vote so far.

[GnKoichi]

Nameless, I'm really done trying to defend against your accusations. You're not saying anything new, and I hope I'm not the only one who sees that. You've been extremely selective with the truth. If you're legit, I'm sorry you don't think my answers stack up. But you seem to either read my posts with a slant against me, or you want to set up that slant to draw more fire my way. Yes, you made a pot shot against charter in the same post, but you haven't gone after him with anything near the same tenacity. That attack also came very shortly after Wall-E suggested a connection between the two of you, which is a little convenient, or at the least a bit unfortunate.

I guess I should have put a hypothetical tag on my talk about how bad certain people would look after I got lynched. I don't think I'm resigned to being taken out this round. I was just trying to point out a flaw an a potential mafia plot.

I would really like to hear from our absent members as well.

[GnKoichi]

EBWOP: Urr, so that's what I get for posting as soon as I wake up. I reread your post Nameless and it seems pretty fair as far as analysis goes. I'm not sure what I skipped before that it seemed mean spirited, or why I felt so strongly about responding to it in kind. Yeah, basically just an apology for not reading carefully the first time. We cool man, we cool.

[Kmd4390]

The question I was answering was "Why would I connect KMD & Charter, and how does that make either of them seem scummy?"

Tell me how to answer that without giving my reasons for thinking Charter is scummy.....
... Except once you lynch me and everyone sees I'm town, you and Charter are the next ones gone, because that will only prove that I'm right.

'kay?

Well you had already given your stance on charter. All you were I asked about was the conncection you mentioned.

And no, it wouldn't prove you are right. What it would do is prove that what you posted are your actual thoughts as town, which is valuable, it just isn't solid proof for anything. We can look at what you have said and ask ourselves "Could he have been right?", but we can't look at it and say "Well, he was town. Charter and Nameless are scum together."

[GnKoichi]

True. Proof is too strong a word. It would just look bad for those first people who ganged up against me. We could find the same information by lynching Charter, and if he's scum, it's likely those same people are also scum. Again, not proof, but like you said, it's lends some credence to my argument.

[Wall-E]

It would just look bad for those first people who ganged up against me.

Uh, no, it wouldn't.

[charter]

I really hope you plan on answering my question too, Charter. And explaining why you'll consider GK scum if somebody ELSE claims they randomly protected.

I'm a doc, sure.
I will consider anyone scum that says the randomly acted last night. I think you misheard me about GK being scum. Whoever says they randomly acted I will view as scum.

[Kmd4390]

Why would you claim?

[charter]

I was asked. I have a habit of lying as town. Is charter actually a doc? Only time will tell.

[Wall-E]

vote nameless

Guys, I found the first scum. Being serious here.

charter's 2nd post: Starts a huge debate over setup to avoid having to appear to be scumhunting.

charter's 3rd post: Owns up to the fact that this setup is clearly impossible to break and makes a non-issue out of MK's random vote. "Is this serious?"

To what purpose did you ask the question of MK in this post, charter?

charter's 4th post: Denounces the discussion he'd started to appear to be town trying to get things back on track, despite being the derailer wut lol.

charter's 5th post: Testing the waters on a vig claim wth?

charter's 6th post: Again, trying to appear town by shooting down his own suggestion, still not scumhunting.

charter's 7th post: More getting-the-town-back-on-track from his own derailment.

charter's 8th post: Denounces a massclaim but advocates a night action claim in the same post. What's the difference between the two?

charter's 9th post: Fence-sitting on the massclaim issue to promote people into possibly agreeing to it. Also conjectures about whether or not there will be nightkills. Still nearly zero scumhunting, and now he's inspiring a third derailment from scumhunting.

charter's 10th post: A question of GnKoichi, "Is this serious?" That's his second passing attempt to appear to be scumhunting. It would be a policy FoS at best, which is far from a scumtell.

charter's 11th post: More conjecture about the setup.

charter's 12th post: Votes GnKoichi. Reasons: Doesn't like how GnKoichi answers questions and asserts that GnKoichi "gave a poor explaination of his accusation." OMGUS.

charter's 13th post: Defense without providing evidence.

charter's 14th post: Shifting the burden of proof. YOU, charter, asserted that there were not likely to be many deaths at night. Your 14th post then says "Prove there are no WMDs in Iraq!!" You can't prove the lack of something, you have to prove it exists, or at the very least, offer evidence that it does.

charter's 15th post: Baseless assertion with no evidence backing his claim. Again. Again.

charter's 16th post: Applies some subtle psychological pressure, saying that if any townie claims to have used dice to choose their night protect he'll call them scum. Scaaaary, charter. For the record, this declaration is clearly bullying and the assertion that using random dice is scummy is flat wrong.

charter's 17th post: "I'm not scum!"

charter's 18th post: "There's some scummy logic being hurled around!" No backup, no citation, an ambiguous blanket statement that he can later claim applied to anyone he wants to handpick.

Nameless PBPA shortly, followed by scumpairing PBPA.

[Wall-E]

I really hope you plan on answering my question too, Charter. And explaining why you'll consider GK scum if somebody ELSE claims they randomly protected.

I'm a doc, sure.
I will consider anyone scum that says the randomly acted last night. I think you misheard me about GK being scum. Whoever says they randomly acted I will view as scum.

"Sure, yeah, whatever, I'm a doc... why not? Get off my back, mom!"

[Wall-E]

I was asked. I have a habit of lying as town. Is charter actually a doc? Only time will tell.

OMG

[GnKoichi]

The reason I felt certain people would look bad is that a few votes came my way very quickly after I started to pressure Charter. If he is scum, don't those people look bad for trying to off me as soon as I was suspicious?

[charter]

Your pressure is worthless. Only you and Wall-E thinks it has any merit. The fact that you're still going on about it will get you lynched. Wall-E, there is not something scummy in every single one of my posts. The fact that you've found that, shows me that you're actually just trying to get me lynched for any reason you can invent.

[GnKoichi]

I don't keep bringing up my suspicion out of nowhere. The conversation hasn't ended. People are still talking about it. If people were talking about other unrelated things, and I kept pointing a finger at you, that would be weird. I pointed a finger at you and it's stuck. People have asked me questions or commented on my position, and I've responded. If other people drop it, so will I, but my point against you stands.

[GnKoichi]

Also, to be perfectly honest the position of all six of us (Kmd, Charter, Wall-E, Nameless, Stef, and myself) are pretty much understood at this point. Any of us continuing could be seen as needless conversation and repetition. The people who matter right now are Orange, Mana, Tony, Puta, Kiro, and Plum. It's time to get off the sidelines.

[Kiro]

Also, to be perfectly honest the position of all six of us (Kmd, Charter, Wall-E, Nameless, Stef, and myself) are pretty much understood at this point. Any of us continuing could be seen as needless conversation and repetition. The people who matter right now are Orange, Mana, Tony, Puta, Kiro, and Plum. It's time to get off the sidelines.

I don't get how Stef's position is understood. He doesn't have any significant scumhunting contributions at the moment other than saying he likes his vote on GnK. A lot has been said about GnK and others since Stef's vote was cast. Both of you please clarify.

As for charter, he still hasn't explained why I'm scum. Also, throwing out intentional WIFOMs like:

I was asked. I have a habit of lying as town. Is charter actually a doc? Only time will tell.

doesn't do much good. Spare the flowery language.

Otherwise, I don't think there's anything new to address from my last post so I'm also waiting for the more lurky players to at least give a basic rundown of their thoughts.

[Nameless]

Hey Kids! It's time for ... [SARCASM, yeah!]

GnK, my opinion is that town shouldn't put too much attention into defending. It's the job of the town too catch scum. If that means that you have to die ...

This is a

fantastic

point of view that will really

help

the town determine who is scum to lynch!

I like my vote so far.

Thank you, Stef, for that

impressive

contribution!

Is charter actually a doc? Only time will tell.

Charter sure is being

honest and certain

about his claim and inspiring a lot of

confidence

in everything he says.

Wall-E, there is not something scummy in every single one of my posts. The fact that you've found that, shows me that you're actually just trying to get me lynched for any reason you can invent.

That is an

EXCELLENT

defence against Wall-E's attack!

[/Sarcasm] I actually feel much better now! Incidentally, I'm waiting for the rest of Wall-E's case before attempting to judge whether he's BSing or not. Charter's stance re: dice I'm still disagree with, but I suppose it's possible to interpret the scummy comment directed at the person to claim dice (but given you were otherwise directing that post towards GK you, Charter, might want to word it a bit clearer next time). And I second Kiro's comment re: Stef.

[charter]

If you want I can point you to games where I've lied as town. Hey, I even won some of them for town too.

[Plum]

Joy. Lotsa stuff to plow through. Hopefully I'll come to some coherent suspicions tonight, else this will just be an overview and my consolidated thoughts will come later.

First glance reread:

The only way I felt Charter was being misleading was telling us not to worry about deaths at night. This is similar to Kiro asking us not to protect.

No. Not at all. Kiro directly suggested 'guys, don't use your Doc-protects because [insert plan that general consensus thinks will have a bad risk/reward ratio for the town]. Charter said 'I think we might go a while with no kills at night, which would help the town'. No suggestions for what we do at night that might put the town at a disadvantage. Might not necessarily be a correct thought, but it's not directed at making us change our behavior to our disadvantage. Looking at it now, it seems to be a general statement that leaving off massclaim might result in a positive situation for the town. Now unless you have strong feelings for why massclaim

will

benefit the town, and Charter was trying to mislead us in that way . . .

First off, you assume that all kills and protections are random. That's completely not true. IF ANYONE tomorrow says "I picked so and so because my dice told me to", I will consider you scum.

HYPOTHETICAL
Tonight comes, I have one Doc protect to use and two players at the top of my town list who are, for all intents and purposes equally town in my view, and therefore deserving of my protect. I tak the situation into account and WIFOM-muse to myself for a bit, but come to the conclusion that they're each about as likely to benefit from my protect. I flip a coin. Do you consider me scum?
/HYPOTHETICAL

And explaining why you'll consider GK scum if somebody ELSE claims they randomly protected.

First off, you assume that all kills and protections are random. That's completely not true. IF ANYONE tomorrow says "I picked so and so because my dice told me to", I will consider you scum.

Way to take things rediculously out of context? I was pretty clear that Charter meant he'd consider anyone using dice to determine protection scum, not that if anyone did he'd consider GnK scum. You agree to this eventually, I notice, though. Meh.

I have a habit of lying as town. Is charter actually a doc? Only time will tell.

Joyness and fluffy bunnies. [/sarcasm]

On a different note, Doc is default vanilla townie claim. I don't think anyone implying the game's version of vanilla is doing anything awful, and when known night actions are involved for hypotheticals it can get dicey trying to word things. I'm taking Chater's claim with a grain of salt, and it doesn't mean too much. It's like he soft-calimed vanilla by saying 'I'll be using my super-special-awesome non-existant vanilla town powers to what I feel is the town's best advantage tonight!' and someone asked 'wait, why are you telling us this Day 1?'. It's not any real info for anyone. Means nothing. The lying as town thing, as above, doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling. But if he's town I'm hoping to goodness that he does it thoughtfully and only if/when he thinks it's the option that will bring town closer to winning the game. But if/when I see something questionable, I'll point it out.

I'll agree that Stef's posted but hasn't contributed too much useful stuff. Reread there on my part? Coming soon, if not now.

1-4: Random voting nonsense.
5: Agreeable stance on vig claim.
6: Infoless suspicions of GnK.
7: Decent case and vote on GnK.
8: Useless.
9: Good argument against no-lynch.
10: Odds discussion.
11-12: Short discussions against GnK and defense of the case.
13: States that he won't let GnK's scummy actions be given a pass due to newbie status. Fine.
14-15: Mostly useless.

One or two decent enough posts in there, but not a whole lot that's been too usefull - percentage there isn't great. I'd say 3/15 that really helped duscussion, though that's not to say all of the others were absolutely unwarranted.

On Wall-E's case: Am running out of brain capacity to analyze cases and want to do my own analysis of Charter soon. Perhaps tomorrow. As it's occurred to me that I agree with him/attack other's (in my warranted opinion) poor cases against him. Basically need to take my own look at Wall-E-Charter-KMD-GnK-Whatever dynamics. Hopefully that'll happen tomorrow.

But before I go: Wall-E, a lot of your case on Chater seems to be predicated on his search for a game-breaking strategy/musing on vig-claim potential. Which is all good and well, except that you seem to do some of that yourself.

Scenario: The vigs claim. We townie docs all divide our protects over them secretly and randomly (coinflips work), a doc dies that night, the vigs have a pool of 10, of which three are scum, to vig from amongst. The mafia doc is protecting one of those, so the odds are 2/9 to kill a mafia (since one of the scum will be invulnerable: addendum: there is the chance both vigs target the same player and beat the protect, but that's longshot territory). 2/9 odds are fairly good, imo.

I dunno. What says a math person? Anyone here a math person?
---------
EBWOP: 2/8 chance to hit a mafia (-1 dead town doc, -3 mafia, one of whom is near unkillable)

1/4 chance to hit mafia is pretty good. Better than 1/11, in a normal scenario with no vig claims.

There might be a gamebreaking strategy buried in this setup. I'm open to conjecture.

charter's 2nd post: Starts a huge debate over setup to avoid having to appear to be scumhunting.
. . .
charter's 5th post: Testing the waters on a vig claim wth?

You atate you're open to gamebreaking-strategy discussion and yourself muse in-thread about vig-claiming. What's the difference here?