Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[Enchant]

Fire is teamed.

Otherwise i don't fucking know how we elimmed Andante instead.

[catboi]

Vote Count 4.01

fireisredsir (1):

Enchant

Not Voting (6):

Datisi, fireisredsir, hutmeil, implosion, Save The Dragons, Something_Smart

With 7 alive, it's 4 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 4 is August 2 at 2:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-08-02 14:00:00)

[Save The Dragons]

does scum enchant try this hard

[hutmeil]

Just checking in, will post later when on my laptop.

[hutmeil]

Fire is teamed.

Otherwise i don't fucking know how we elimmed Andante instead.

Who do you think fire is teamed with?

[fireisredsir]

Also masons, for mafia it's blatant who you are anyway at this point, so you can as well CLAIM

i mean i thought this was true yesterday and maf missed anyway so maybe it isn't

[fireisredsir]

std why do you tr ss?

[fireisredsir]

For win i need find another VT and persuade everyone else to not decapitate both of us. That's ALL. I had right idea that it could be Andante BUT NO, we starting hesitating, which made me question things that maybe fucking i am wrong. WE SHOULD KILLED FIRE AND IT'S INSTAWIN REGARDLESS IF HE TOWN OR NOT. I RUINED EVERYTHING.

there's literally no difference between limming me and limming andante tho so this doesn't make sense

like if im town (i am!) and you flipped me yesterday we would be in basically the same spot. nobody would see me flip town and be suddenly like "oh, ok, well andante and enchant are clear so let's go lim someone else"

[fireisredsir]

i am also kinda tempted to townread it but i also don't understand the logic behind it

[implosion]

I need other non-Datisi people to look at Datisi and analyze him/what I'm saying about him more bc honestly I don't think back and forth with him himself is going to be very useful to me for sorting him :X. It just feels like it's going to fall into the trope of arguments in mafia where I say X, he says no not X, and I just can't really trust the argumentation as useful for his alignment.

Spoiler: This is basically a rant and i honestly am slightly embarrassed to post it because i'm going to feel really bad about it if datisi is town and tbh i might just not even read whatever he makes his reply to it because golly gosh

So the thing I said I'd look at wrt Datisi was his trajectory yesterday. He started off by talking about/going after Enchant, essentially prodding him to give reads and such and eventually voting him with Ari, starting around 1907. I'm not sure if I buy Datisi's vote here, looking it over. Ari's read is very clearly emotionally driven, and Datisi's comes off the back of essentially a series of back and forth questions that he didn't like the answers to. I think by 1933 when he votes, he is supposed to be scumreading Enchant and it's not just emotionally driven like Ari's vote clearly was, because his vote wasn't just a vanity vote and he shortly thereafter asked Ari why she thought Enchant was town. But then like 30 minutes later he made the comment that he thought Enchant was looking townie but had fooled him before. I guess like with the other thing I'd been describing, this can have an explanation as town but makes a lot of sense as a trajectory for scum to take on Enchant I think? I just feel like the thought process behind the vote is murky and doesn't quite make sense to me.

He then left his vote on S_S a while while fire became leading wagon, while he was also calling fire scum in a few ways (e.g. calling his lack of paranoia towards Datisi potentially scummy, and poe). It seems like for a while he was poeing fire/s_s and looking for reasons to break that poe. Sensible as either alignment probably.

Then comes the shift to Andante eventually, and I really can't tell what prompted it. It comes off the back of Datisi seemingly being unimpressed with a back-and-forth/Andante not giving reads, then Andante gets to E-2 and he says he's starting to think Andante is actually scum. This has a little bit of a parallel with the Enchant vote in that I can't tell fully if it's actually a read, actually frustration with Andante, or some combination of both (i mean clearly it's partially a read but it's a weird (not necessarily scummy-weird) reversal from how he'd been talking about Andante recently). He gives logical and meta justifications for the vote after that.

I guess my main issue with all this is that it all seems perfectly sensible to do as scum. Like, Datisi has cited things that he's done this game that he claims aren't how he plays as scum, but those things, generally to me, have sounded like actually pretty sensible things to do as scum. For instance,

entering the day with "there was a bus ackchually" is not the idea i wanna start planting in people's heads after bussing

He said he wouldn't have been pushing on-penguin-wagon d2 as scum because he was on-wagon. But that could be totally sensible to do as scum who was on-wagon and whose partner was off-wagon when there's five other people who were on wagon other than you and the now-dead baltar... I don't understand why it wouldn't be sensible, no one has ever actually had the thought pattern of "oh my god, Datisi is pushing on wagon, datisi was on wagon, datisi is totally scum!!" that he's implying he'd be afraid of as scum. That just, simply isn't how thought processes work? And there's more things at play that cause people to have reads on people than this and a part of me thinks that this line is just straight bullshit? Idk, maybe it's possible Town Datisi is lying to himself here??? but this seems simply false to me that he'd never (or even infrequently) make that play as scum.

i'm also not gonna so easily drop it if i do decide to take that angle because murdering on wagon then off wagon is overall easier than the other way around

This is also just, kind of bullshit? Sure it's "overall easier" why does that mean you'd never easily drop it? It's a perfectly sensible thing to do as scum for a billion different reasons. Maybe there's an easy off-wagon lim that day that presents itself, maybe you want to look like your opinions are fluid, etc, etc, etc.

if i'm gonna bus, i'm gonna come up with better arguments than "lol ye lurking is scummy" or however else i said it on d1 because if you wanna bus, you have to appear like you have Great Reasons why the person is scum, rather than jumping on as an afterthought

I think this is just a basic mischaracterization of this game. If scum!Datisi thought about bussing Penguin at the moment that he would have here, there were no Great Reasons why Penguin was scum. He'd done shit-all that was readable. But it's still potentially sensible to bus there. And he did give increasing reasons to vote penguin - it's not like he totally didn't justify it if it was a bus. Like he gave as good of reasons as I think he possibly could.

I think this is also just a fascinating take in its own right - it's almost saying "if I were scum, I would be playing so much better than I am as town". Like saying you would have given better reasons and been more committed to the bus. Like, why should I believe that your scum game is a better town game than your town game is? Idk.

Like, almost the entirety of the post I'm quoting here (2675) is saying "I can't be scum here because my game would look so much better if I was scum", as far as I can tell. The last paragraph:

like, you can argue "but datisi have big scumrange" and claim i did these things because wifom or because i was planning a month ahead to make this post, but i simply don't play scum like that because then i either have to (1) hope town draws these conclusions themselves or (2) make the arguments myself, and both of those are things that i can't rely on as scum

This is just so weird because he's claiming the things that he's done that are townie are townie because they are low-utility to do as scum, because people would never be giving him credit for them. Which like... tbh it sounds like Datisi is putting his scumgame on a bigger pedestal than I am? Like I think this is just not how anything works. Datisi, as scum, is sometimes going to do things that are Not Perfectly Optimal To Do As Scum In That Situation. He's just going to go with the flow sometimes.

And beyond all that, the actual reason I'm thinking more that you are scum is sort of PoE-inspired but it's not PoE. It's because exactly the thing that you're describing you should be town for, is why several other people in this game are town, but it doesn't apply to you. So many other players in this game have done shit that I feel

doesn't

make sense for them to do as scum, but every trajectory you've taken this game just feels so... sensible. You haven't turned on a dime, you haven't done any weird shit, and most importantly you haven't taken any major actions in the most recent parts of the game that have made me go "jeez, this just doesn't make sense to come from scum Datisi". Like, take Enchant. His weird outburst today is, I think, probably extremely +town. I'm open to arguments that it isn't but like, idk. It feels like if you're town, there should be something tangible that I can point to at this point that makes you town - there were things on d1 that were

somewhat

tangible but those aren't enough at this point?

[fireisredsir]

i agree with the points made against his reasons why he can't be scum, i had the same thought about the on-wagon thing, it reminds me of how i was arguing i couldn't be scum in invictus. ive also been fooled before by believing his "i would never do this if i were scum here", he's p good at it usually

im not really sold on his progressions being scummy but they aren't especially towny either

i still think the scummiest thing ive seen from him is what i brought up in 2598. i don't know if i will ever really get over that post bc i just can't get it out of my head that that's a post scumtisi makes when he's just woke up and slightly fumbles on the emotional tone he's supposed to have

if enchant is town it's prob just datisi/ss.

ig im not really sure what his plan is here? hope that other people push enchant for him? or push me?

[fireisredsir]

there were some early moments that felt slightly off and there was also a thought i had that about his d2 play and why it seemed weird for him as scum that i want to think about some more

[fireisredsir]

what worries me ig is that if datisi is town and we find him then this game is very winnable. if he's town and we lim him then we probably just lose. and he's a player where it's really hard to be sure on him and yet it feels like i need to be

i am also finding it increasingly difficult to want to let ss live

[Save The Dragons]

i dunno there was something about S_S that made me tr him but i forgot it. i guess i think i didn't think scum!S_S gets into a fight with ari D1? it just seems weird when he could just coast.

i will look at the datisi rant/case in a bit

[fireisredsir]

oh yea the gamma kill was another weird thing but ig it doesn't really make sense coming from anyone now that andante is town?

like it's possible that he noticed the way that me and ari were shielding gamma and discouraging him from pushing there, and he couldn't tell who was actually the mason partner but could tell that there was probably a reason for that defense

that also kinda fits with killing ari, if he thought they were mason paired due to ari's gamma defense

datisi/ss wrongly thinking ari was mason as of last night just seems kinda wild to me tho. i assumed it would be easier for scum to find masons but maybe they just got tunneled on the wrong things or maybe they thought ari needed to die even if she wasn't a mason

i also still think the SS response to the gamma kill was weird, saying that he didn't think scum figured out gamma was mason. i don't think thats an assumption that town!ss would be making there given he had me in a pool of suspects and i flipped my read on gamma without much reasoning

[fireisredsir]

i dunno there was something about S_S that made me tr him but i forgot it. i guess i think i didn't think scum!S_S gets into a fight with ari D1? it just seems weird when he could just coast.

i thought this too at first (there were a couple things where he seemed to be more aggressive than i would expect) but after i read some of his scumgames i don't think thats out of his range at all

[Datisi]

i am really annoyed that it seems like implo has decided to not respond at all to my 2674 bc i was really interested in his response to the middle part

what is the point of singling out that you don't understand my thought process / find it murky if your main issue with it is that it's sensible to do as scum? like, do you have a problem with not understanding the thought process or do you want it explained?

he's claiming the things that he's done that are townie are townie because they are low-utility to do as scum, because people would never be giving him credit for them

yes, actually

like for a lot of these, i'm not claiming i'd have done some uber difficult thing to do as scum. pushing off-wagon immediately is easy. sticking to my guns about eliminating on-wagon is easy (either i'm not listened to and the town starts eating each other, or i am listened to and confusion arises as townflips happens and the low-hanging-fruit is alive). making up reasons to scumread a scumbuddy is easy. those things would've helped scum!me. i can, for the most part, tell how town is going to react to certain events, and position accordingly.

also, the "you haven't turned on a dime or done any weird shit" feels odd to have in a post where you spent like 3 paragraphs explaining how you did not understand my vote switches, but

[Datisi]

i still think the scummiest thing ive seen from him is what i brought up in 2598. i don't know if i will ever really get over that post bc i just can't get it out of my head that that's a post scumtisi makes when he's just woke up and slightly fumbles on the emotional tone he's supposed to have

the same point that you said you found in my towngames too, right

[Datisi]

i had a vague urge to write out an ate-y sorta ramble but i don't think it will actually help anything

i'm gonna go pass out and hopefully have the energy for this in the morning

[fireisredsir]

i still think the scummiest thing ive seen from him is what i brought up in 2598. i don't know if i will ever really get over that post bc i just can't get it out of my head that that's a post scumtisi makes when he's just woke up and slightly fumbles on the emotional tone he's supposed to have

the same point that you said you found in my towngames too, right

lol come on, really?

[Enchant]

Fun fact:
If you can say "I would't do it as mafia", then you know you won't do something as mafia.
And knowing you would't do it, you can decide to do it. And then point you would't do it as mafia.

Easily.

So Datisi claims are doing opposite for me, stop even making them.



Fun fact, i writed more but rereaded and decided to delete it off. Either way my mind:

fire IS teamed with someone. I am not going to speculate if he is mason or mafia or who exactly (i bet on maf), but i feel someone throwed suspiciouns off them. I can as well point at everyone who doubted it's Fire. If he is VT somehow, i fucking die.
Aris is mindcontrolled by Datisi, so i doubt he makes this kill actually. Unless he wants to throw everyone off. Aris would easily go to decapitate me if prompted by Datisi as well as at Fire. Ez win for Datisi if we both town, if datisi+fire, then well maybe it makes sense. Datisi also blatantly not mason. Of course he then claims mason, because i am always wrong, i am? Either way i don't think he is teamed.
STD, hutmeil and implosion. If Datisi is VT and i am right on Fire!Maf, then there's literally 2 Masons, 1 Mafia. Why masons still didn't claim? Fuck you that's why. I am not going to search even, it's your problem.


So you can claim/not claim/etc just kill Fire and go beep beep on remaining mafia. Should't be that hard.

[Enchant]

I forgot about Something_Smart existance, so prob it doesh't make sense.

Write him up in STD/Hutmail/implosion list and remake it as 2 Masons, 1 Mafia, 1 VT. Didn't really matter.

[fireisredsir]

enchant town, it's just datisi/ss, ez

[Datisi]

If you can say "I would't do it as mafia", then you know you won't do something as mafia.
And knowing you would't do it, you can decide to do it. And then point you would't do it as mafia.

i mean, yeah. i *could* do the things i pointed out. i'm just saying why it would be more beneficial to me to do one thing as scum, rather than do the less-optimal version of that and then go "but i wouldn't!!!!"

i still think the scummiest thing ive seen from him is what i brought up in 2598. i don't know if i will ever really get over that post bc i just can't get it out of my head that that's a post scumtisi makes when he's just woke up and slightly fumbles on the emotional tone he's supposed to have

the same point that you said you found in my towngames too, right

lol come on, really?

yes

[Datisi]

here's a take

VOTE: implosion

i have a feeling he has been building a trajectory to get onto voting me. but the way i see it, that trajectory doesn't really make sense. or like, it has things added to it that are vaguely connected but overall they don't make a cohesive complete thought process together. my guess was that he was hoping enchant would carry on wanting to kill me from yesterday. i'd be interested in

literally everyone other than enchant and fire

having a comment on this, though.

also enchant is town. i was expecting him to come in trying to kill me today, and i feel like this reversal of his read of me makes absolutely zero sense to do as scum.