Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[Aristeia]

like you understand 2542 says you want to elim the people doing nothing and 2543 says you think the masons are doing nothing and like

it's kind of ??? to eliminate masons who r doing nothing?

[Andante]

honestly if hut and/or SS are masons. they literally couldn't be MORE anti town right now, so no, I don't freaking care

[Aristeia]

ok if SS/Hutmeil are masons who would you like to eliminate then?

[fireisredsir]

Like even fire/andante don't seem to really want to lim the other person so like what's going on here?

im warming to the idea tbh

[Andante]

Like even fire/andante don't seem to really want to lim the other person so like what's going on here?

im warming to the idea tbh

warming to the idea of voting me cause im e1? right...

[fireisredsir]

would you like to share who you think is mafia?

[Something_Smart]

honestly if hut and/or SS are masons. they literally couldn't be MORE anti town right now, so no, I don't freaking care

It's not the masons' responsibility to lead. It's the masons' responsibility to not die, and not make their partners obvious if they do.

Regardless of whether I'm mason or VT, I am never going to be leading.

[implosion]

implo, do you care to convince me why i'm wrong on what i recently said about fire being town?

Which thing specifically? I gave some disagreement to some townread you gave on him recently.

[Datisi]

okay i had a thought earlier

so the vc is at 2125, with fire wagon decently leading. then ari pops in and there's a page and a half of "actually this fire wagon is Bad, andante is like obviously scum, and also datisi is the most likely partner to scum!andante and etc etc"

and then fire pops in in 2181 like "let me drop a paragraph of analysis on why andante/datisi does not make any sense as a pair", like what. sure, he offered an alternative of enchant/andante, but he kept prioritizing enchant in that pair, AND just giving this analysis does run the risk of ari agreeing with the points against datisi/andante but not buying into other ones

having fun today reading old games where SS was scum and getting more and more confused why people seem to be underestimating his abilities here

also ^^ this post seems counter-intuitive to make as scum to me, because if you're scum who should get the fuck out of being murdered, then you don't hint towards you doing analysis, you actually do that analysis

if fire is scum here, then he feels Fine being flipped, so either (1) he's scum with andante and the game is completely fucked for them (lol) or (2) his buddy is deep onto that bus and he's fine flipping (would that be like, save the dragons?)

my overall conclusion is that i can't fit fire's posting into a scum mindset, unless he's scum with very specific and unlikely people

i think this stuff is fresh

[implosion]

For the first: I feel like I've had scum games where, if I'm being run up, my first instinct isn't to construct a specific narrative escape route that is as viable as possible, which it seems like that's what you're describing fire-scum should be doing but isn't? I definitely feel like another thing you can have as a reaction to pressure as scum is to just try to do your best/vibe. If fire was like "yes, ari is right, andante is totally obvious scum vote andante" then fire would risk getting yelled at for pushing a counterwagon, or for flailing.

For the second: I think this is also a potential motivation/mindset thing? fire could be scum who wants to avoid dying, but e.g. doesn't have his heart in it due to gamestate apathy/the day dragging on, which can affect scum too. And so hinting at analysis without actually doing it is a sensible thing in that case. I do think that post is maybe somewhat -scum for fire. Seeming like you're fine with being flipped is like, not an uncommon tact to take as scum. For instance, Andante seemed fine being flipped as scum in the scumgame of hers I linked earlier. I think you need more context for a tell like that; in some contexts, like if someone has been zoned in on the game and is really (particularly emotionally) invested and then loses that investment as they're being flipped then yeah maybe that makes more sense for town who is out of fucks than it would make for scum who is excited about winning the game to suddenly be less excited about trying. But fire hasn't been that gung-ho.

[implosion]

And I'm still pretty uninterested in thinking about partner dynamics; I think things along the lines of "X can't be scum because no one makes sense as a partner" are probably like =rand to be correct. Maybe he is scum with those unlikely people, or maybe he's been trying to make it look like he's not partners with the people you think he's not with. etc.

And to be clear. Do I have confidence fire is scum? lol, no.

[Enchant]

Hammer or No...
What a question.

[Datisi]

if I'm being run up, my first instinct isn't to construct a specific narrative escape route that is as viable as possible, which it seems like that's what you're describing fire-scum should be doing but isn't?

i may or may not be talking out of my ass here, but the reason why i feel fire would be doing that is

(1) from the games i've played with him, his townplay strikes me as a sort of analytical, doing business, moving the game forward, putting in work, etc
(2) for the short time i was playing with scum!fire in invictus, i was not able to tell that he's scum, i.e. tell the difference between town and scum him

so from those two, i'm assuming that fire would be playing scum in a somewhat similar manner that he plays town, and those are the qualities i associate with his townplay. and i imagine that a scum that has those qualities would be attempting to talk their way out of the wagon using facts and logic and by planning an escape route, or at least the max +ev plan for their team

[Datisi]

And I'm still pretty uninterested in thinking about partner dynamics; I think things along the lines of "X can't be scum because no one makes sense as a partner" are probably like =rand to be correct. Maybe he is scum with those unlikely people, or maybe he's been trying to make it look like he's not partners with the people you think he's not with. etc.

it's not necessarily a partner dynamics argument, at least not solely one

it's more like, i feel like scum!fire would have the skills and the ability to do what is max +ev for his team. if we assume he's scum here, then the only way he's doing that is if his only counterwagon is also his partner (and he's trying to turn it over to enchant or s_s), or if his partner is so well positioned that all fire has to do is antispew and wait for his dead thread link

to be fair, maybe there isn't a functional difference between the nature of the two arguments, but meh

[fireisredsir]

altho it is def expected, enchant not wanting to hammer here is tempting me

[Andante]

Enchant not hammering is definitely + town for enchant. in KTANE enchant didn't hammer an e-1 even after I was asking them about it, and enchant was town there.

Fire again, is trying to justify a vote on me. I really believe fire is maf here

[Andante]

VOTE: fireisredsir

like, literally the 2nd time trying to justify a vote on me cause he knows I'm flipping town

[fireisredsir]

Definitely just dissapointing to see, I've tried my absolute BEST, and I'm being chopped. like, I die, then what? you're just gonna go lim fire, and then you're at lylo. whatever, not my problem.

well that's good, means you don't have to worry about this anymore

[fireisredsir]

GeorgeBailey - Any intentions on playing the game you signed up for?

Why is George null for you but mala is scummy for lurking?

mala is scummy for her "read" on me

zzzzz

mvp baltar?

[fireisredsir]

reread and i still tr her d1 :<

[Aristeia]

unofficial VC:

Andante (4): Something_Smart, Datisi, hutmeil, Aristeia
fireisredsir (3): Save The Dragons, implosion, Andante
Enchant (1): fireisredsir
Datisi (1): Enchant


this day has been so weird -__-

[fireisredsir]

i guess there's no real point in waiting more, i don't think we're getting the last minute flashwagon on enchant

[fireisredsir]

i could wait for tomorrow since she said she could maybe effort then but idk, when she's been here lately she has put a p low percentage of her energy towards actually solving anything so idk how productive it would be to stall things out further

[Aristeia]

why doesn't scum!enchant just hammer town!andante here?

[fireisredsir]

the only reason would be that they would know that i would likely do it anyway and it may make then look better not to

and probably them not doing it would even encourage me to do it myself (which it did)