Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Huntress]

Vote Count

MiteyMouse 2 - (Evilgorrilaz, MacavityLock)
Zeppo007 1 - (Atlas)
StrangerCoug 2 - (Primate, Zeppo007)
MacavityLock 1 - (MiteyMouse)
Corvuus 2 - (StrangerCoug, Apothecary)
Cephrir 1 - (SmintyLost23)

Not voting 2 - (Corvuus, Cephrir)


With eleven players alive, it takes six votes to lynch.

[Apothecary]

I simply chose Corvuus because it was a random vote. There was no malicious intent intended. But I'm a little confused about Primate's Vendiagram. Does the fact I'm in a seperate bubble mean my allegiance is undecided?

[StrangerCoug]

SC, why don't you tell us what you think of who is your top two picks for being the most scummy.

It was you and Cephrir for the Primate case (you were pushing a utility lynch, Cephrir was mindlessly bandwagoning), but it's now Zeppo007 and Cephrir. This post is setting me off:

I've got a question for Primate. You seem pretty set on StrangerCoug being guilty do you have any extra info as part of Role that would give you this info? If not can you show us some quotes that have given you this high suspicion of Coug?

You are aware that this is a day start and, even if he had an investigative role, he really wouldn't know yet, right, Zeppo007? Why are you asking him questions about his role?

Unvote: Corvuus
Vote: Zeppo007

Not much has changed in terms of Cephrir, and I have seen him play more pro-town than hesitating to explain his votes.

[Zeppo007]

It was you and Cephrir for the Primate case (you were pushing a utility lynch, Cephrir was mindlessly bandwagoning), but it's now Zeppo007 and Cephrir. This post is setting me off:

I've got a question for Primate. You seem pretty set on StrangerCoug being guilty do you have any extra info as part of Role that would give you this info? If not can you show us some quotes that have given you this high suspicion of Coug?

You are aware that this is a day start and, even if he had an investigative role, he really wouldn't know yet, right, Zeppo007? Why are you asking him questions about his role?

looking at the wiki for Normal games I see this.

Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.

I do realize it is day 1 but primate has twice said through his picture posting that he believes you are scum. Now this combined with his rather odd PR that he is not abandoning got me thinking perhaps his role might be giving him some night 0 info. Mostly it's just a wild theory that has been bouncing around in my head and I thought I would ask.

[MacavityLock]

I simply chose Corvuus because it was a random vote. There was no malicious intent intended. But I'm a little confused about Primate's Vendiagram. Does the fact I'm in a seperate bubble mean my allegiance is undecided?

You've posted 5 times to this thread, only 2 of which have

any

useful content. He doesn't have anything to go on, and neither do I. So, some questions: Has anyone done anything that you find questionable? Who do you find scummy?

[Corvuus]

Cep:

I am not jumping ship. Primate's answer is acceptable to me. I said I would unvote when I got what I wanted, so I did.

----

I will post my ideas later on when I have more time.

Sorry,

Corv

[Atlas]

Zeppo, have you seen a yes or no answer from Primate on anything yet? That wasn't a rhetorical question.

I guess the mod doesn't want to disclose the limits of this set-up.

You know what, screw it. I'm done talking about Primate for now.

I'm not necessarily encouraging you to stay on this subject (because I'm getting sick of it as well) but I have a strong feeling that this is exactly what Primate is going for. His responses are increasingly ambiguous and do not answer questions as explicitly as he has shown he is capable of.

I simply chose Corvuus because it was a random vote. There was no malicious intent intended. But I'm a little confused about Primate's Vendiagram. Does the fact I'm in a seperate bubble mean my allegiance is undecided?

I think we can stop the "reaction voting" now because it's only distracting the town and has been done several times already. Original reaction-gauging moves are less obvious and thus will likely yield more telling information.

My top suspect is still Zeppo; his role-fishing was so blatant, illogical and silly that I would consider it only a slight scum-tell if he weren't so new.

[MacavityLock]

You know what, screw it. I'm done talking about Primate for now.

I'm not necessarily encouraging you to stay on this subject (because I'm getting sick of it as well) but I have a strong feeling that this is exactly what Primate is going for. His responses are increasingly ambiguous and do not answer questions as explicitly as he has shown he is capable of.

You're not wrong, but given what we know of this "PR", I think we should just start treating him like any other player. At this point, if he doesn't provide good/non-craplogic analysis (no matter what excuse), I will consider it scummy. And by analysis, I do mean something that anyone can understand. (The army-star patches, for example? I have no idea.)

[Corvuus]

This game feels confusing to me and it makes me wonder how new all of us are?

This is the first game I actually started in, but I have replaced into 2 others and started in another. I haven't finished any of my games yet but I think I am mediocre at the very least.

So this isn't meant to disparage any of you but it just feels like the direction and flow is strange.

---------

I went after Primate for 2 reasons.

1. For the reasons I stated before about it being a voluntary PR, what it means, what he is able to do, how willing he is to help us. I had a goal which is to get him to post and show me (which he did) and so I am done with it. I don't think he is scummy and I would not vote to lynch him even if many of you tried.

2. By going after Primate, We all get to see how everyone reacts. This gives us information based on play style, comments, etc. etc. Information gained by town = good and this takes us out of 'random' voting and into more 'informed' voting.

Now if Primate is insanely unhelpful AND there is no one scummy at all, then I could consider lynching him instead of a no-lynch.

----

However, I get the scummiest vibes from StrangerCougar.

---------------------

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.


----------

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.


-------------

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.


--------------

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did). I viewed it as a liability since... it is a liability!

PR's can ignore votes (or get around them somehow) so I didn't care about that so much. I just needed to provoke a reaction, which I did.

----------------------


I could show more of SC's posts but my biggest hunch right now is that SC is mafia and that Primate may be his scumbuddy.

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people. Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

This is either incredibly anti-town or scummy.

I could go on but I think you should respond.

Corvuus
P.S.

Vote SC

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

Corv

[MiteyMouse]

I'm getting a minor Scummy vibe from Cephir. This is mostly the vote without reasoning thing. Just coming from a game that I had a posting restriction in, I am willing to give Primate the benefit of the doubt right now....it is not easy and he has been doing pretty well with getting his point across with it.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.

I'm simply against pushing a utility lynch. Town may be "useless", but lynching a useless townie is still a mislynch. I can see how scum might use them to their advantage. I'm also against lazy town, and Huntress has not voiced any objections to his pointing pictures except one where he was insulting you.

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.

Even if I agree with people, I still have my suspects. My vote's out.

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did).

OK, I understand that much.

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

Quote where I suspect Primate. (My saying "I'm looking at him", "I don't know what to make of him", "his post interest me for some reason", or anything along the lines of those three don't count, by the way. The first one simply means I'm looking at someone's case to see if it makes sense; I don't use the other two as an indication that I have a firm belief that a player is scum.)

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Primate hasn't said anything along the lines of why exactly I'm scummy, but I'm sure he has them.

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

I have attacked them.

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people.

I've cleared you because I feel you have explained yourself adequately. I don't have to approve of a Primate lynch to think you are town.

Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

So I'm somehow supposed to "lock" my vote and ignore other people's defenses. Right.

I've had my vote on you for awhile; in fact, I think I've had it on you the longest for the Primate case. I remember voting four people other than my random vote: Evilgorillaz, Cephrir, you, and Zeppo007, and I believe in that order. Three Mafia is standard in a mini, so I know all four of you can't be, but I fail to see where I'm being wishy-washy with my vote.

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Player X voting player Y for scummy action Z, whatever that might be ≠ player X being scum necessarily. For player Y to propose otherwise is OMGUS. Granted, I should have probed Primate for reasoning, but I cannot attack Primate solely because he voted me.

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

There is no need for me to panic over one or two votes. You have put me at L-4, which is not really a dangerous position in a mini, but being at L-4 does mean that you had best be explaining what you did, and I am doing so right now.

[Corvuus]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

If Cephrir is scummy to you then build a case on him and go for it. It isn't a issue of quality or quantity. It is an issue of you claiming you want to scumhunt, do stuff, etc. and then not actually doing it.

-------------------------------

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.

I'm simply against pushing a utility lynch. Town may be "useless", but lynching a useless townie is still a mislynch. I can see how scum might use them to their advantage. I'm also against lazy town, and Huntress has not voiced any objections to his pointing pictures except one where he was insulting you.

This is not a real answer and doesn't explain anything. You can say *now* that you are against a utility lynch but that isn't what you said back then. You said that you believe Primate's PR claim (and apparently you still do) and that my intention and points, etc. were ignoring it and attempting to lynch him based on misinformation. You were misrepresenting my position which is scum taking advantage. If I think Primate's claim is BS, then I am free to think so, vote on it, and pressure on it. You have no real reason to change your answer, nor ignore Primate and the fact is lynching useless townies is not always a bad move so I don't believe your "lynching useless townie is a mislynch". It is a fallacy.

-----

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.

Even if I agree with people, I still have my suspects. My vote's out.

This isn't an answer either. It should be obvious why.

---------------------

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did).

OK, I understand that much.

Can you elaborate on this? State what you understand, what you think, why, etc.

------------

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

Quote where I suspect Primate. (My saying "I'm looking at him", "I don't know what to make of him", "his post interest me for some reason", or anything along the lines of those three don't count, by the way. The first one simply means I'm looking at someone's case to see if it makes sense; I don't use the other two as an indication that I have a firm belief that a player is scum.)

Sadly, it does count.

In a PBPA of you, post #14, you state: "i'm trying to get the town back on track" i.e. scum hunting.

Primate posts his pictures and votes for you. You respond with post #15 on PBPA where you ask if Primate thinks you are a convenience store robber (and he is voting for you). So he is 'scum hunting' in a sense with his PR.

In post #17, You state that you are looking at Primate since people aren't scum hunting.

When he HAS voted for you and drawn a picture of you as a 'convenience store robber".

Why didn't you respond to this or care? He basically says you are scum, and then you shrug it off. You go on to state that you understand his pictures, his pictures are fine, leave him alone, (even though he did vote for you and he does have you marked as 100% scum) so why aren't my points valid?

Note: you can't say because he has no evidence, etc. since then that proves my point about his posts 'not contributing' in terms of his thinking/analysis, etc. which you state that you don't believe and you understand his posts fine.

Why the inconsistency? If you get his posts, he sees you as scum, then why not bash his PR or his logic or his reasoning? Instead, you just 'ignore' him and move on to other players.

So my point is Valid since you "do mention" Primate (so we can't accuse you later of completely ignoring him) but you pretty much do give him a jail out of free card in terms of his actions, etc.

--------------

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Primate hasn't said anything along the lines of why exactly I'm scummy, but I'm sure he has them.

What does this statement mean? You are sure he has them? Then why not ask him to elaborate? Why not ask him to prove his point with his PR or with words, etc. Instead you just let him call you scum, let him vote for you and then say, "I don't know, he has reasons... but yeah, I understand all of his picture posts and Corvuus' going after his PR (which is not voluntary) doesn't make sense".

What you did doesn't make sense. You could say, "I didn't think about it, or I didn't think of that" but seriously, you have pointed out 'everything' else that is 'wrong' with everyone else, I don't see why you would ignore Primate who IS voting you and does have picture of you being scum. I wouldn't have accused you of OMGUS if you asked for a better explanation , etc. or thought it was weird that Primate is pointing you out. Instead, you pretty much ignore it and go after ... Zeppo i think as "#1 or #2" on your list for asking Primate questions when really you should be asking Primate questions instead.

How does that make sense? You go after Zeppo for asking why Primate thinks you are scum but you don't go after Primate for thinking you are scum?

-------------------------

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

I have attacked them.

What should I say about this. You attacked me originally for going after a person with a PR (Primate, who you consider to have a PR and it not be voluntary despite no evidence to the contrary). Then you attack me for trying to put pressure on him to get him to stop/explain or contribute when he *has*. But his contribution, which you are aware, is to vote for you and say you are scum. I didn't see his vote (due to the picture format) and since you ignored him, I didn't think Primate did anything, but when I look back and see what happened, it is strange that Primate went after you as scum (and still is going after you) and yet you argue to protect him, his "PR", etc. Why not just let Primate handle it?

---------

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people.

I've cleared you because I feel you have explained yourself adequately. I don't have to approve of a Primate lynch to think you are town.

I don't get the above statement. You need to elaborate and state 100% whether you think Primate's PR is voluntary or real.

Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

So I'm somehow supposed to "lock" my vote and ignore other people's defenses. Right.

I've had my vote on you for awhile; in fact, I think I've had it on you the longest for the Primate case. I remember voting four people other than my random vote: Evilgorillaz, Cephrir, you, and Zeppo007, and I believe in that order. Three Mafia is standard in a mini, so I know all four of you can't be, but I fail to see where I'm being wishy-washy with my vote.

That isn't my point. I would just ask you this. Primate thinks you are scum. What is your defense and what do you say to Primate?

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Player X voting player Y for scummy action Z, whatever that might be ≠ player X being scum necessarily. For player Y to propose otherwise is OMGUS. Granted, I should have probed Primate for reasoning, but I cannot attack Primate solely because he voted me.

This is an error in logic. Primate isn't voting you for a specific scummy action Z. in fact, he never stated why he is voting for you or why he thinks you are scum which is the entire problem with Picture PR. I get that he thinks you are scum SC but why, how, etc. I don't know.

Now, if Player P(rimate) votes for Player SC for "no reason" as being 100% scum, then Player SC is PERFECTLY fine in saying that it is scummy for Player P to do so. It is like Cephrir voting without giving his reasons which you are QUICK to jump on... but when Primate did the same to you, you ignored him.

No one would have said that it was OMGUS for you to ask for a explanation so that you could actually respond and refute Primate's response.

So YES, you should (and from your actions against other players) would have gone after Primate for solely voting you for no "clearly" stated reason. if you can state Primate's reasons for voting for you here, then state them and refute them.

---------------

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

There is no need for me to panic over one or two votes. You have put me at L-4, which is not really a dangerous position in a mini, but being at L-4 does mean that you had best be explaining what you did, and I am doing so right now.

I agree that there is no need to panic over one or two votes. When I was going after Primate to clarify his PR, I would have kept going after him even if you all voted me to L-2.

However, your actions which are still ignoring Primate are highly questionable.

Primate has a ven diagram where he has you shown as 100% scum. Shouldn't you be angry? Shouldn't you fight back? Explain why you don't attack Primate's logic, his diagrams, etc. and why you don't think he is scum for what he is doing when you clearly think others are scum when they are doing virtually the equivalent.

It is that kind of selective bias that makes me think you are scum and that Primate may be scum who is half-trying to BUS you in order to 'prove' himself.

I see no reason for Primate to be "100%" sure and put you in the major scum category yet he does. Anyone with too much information or knowledge (especially in day 1) is generally scum. Why don't you call him on it? Ask him for reasons, explanations?

His first Picture vote could have been 'random' or just for fun, but his store robber vote is you, his ven diagram vote is you, etc. That seems pretty sure to me, and he has no reason for doing it unless he is scum. You also have no reason for why you would ignore him saying you are scum, voting for you, and you otherwise defending him and saying he can do his PR, etc. etc. unless you are trying to help him.

So go ahead and try to say I am reading too much into things. I am pretty sure i can knock out most of what you say.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

If Cephrir is scummy to you then build a case on him and go for it. It isn't a issue of quality or quantity. It is an issue of you claiming you want to scumhunt, do stuff, etc. and then not actually doing it.

-------------------------------

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.

I'm simply against pushing a utility lynch. Town may be "useless", but lynching a useless townie is still a mislynch. I can see how scum might use them to their advantage. I'm also against lazy town, and Huntress has not voiced any objections to his pointing pictures except one where he was insulting you.

This is not a real answer and doesn't explain anything. You can say *now* that you are against a utility lynch but that isn't what you said back then. You said that you believe Primate's PR claim (and apparently you still do) and that my intention and points, etc. were ignoring it and attempting to lynch him based on misinformation. You were misrepresenting my position which is scum taking advantage. If I think Primate's claim is BS, then I am free to think so, vote on it, and pressure on it. You have no real reason to change your answer, nor ignore Primate and the fact is lynching useless townies is not always a bad move so I don't believe your "lynching useless townie is a mislynch". It is a fallacy.

-----

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.

Even if I agree with people, I still have my suspects. My vote's out.

This isn't an answer either. It should be obvious why.

---------------------

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did).

OK, I understand that much.

Can you elaborate on this? State what you understand, what you think, why, etc.

------------

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

Quote where I suspect Primate. (My saying "I'm looking at him", "I don't know what to make of him", "his post interest me for some reason", or anything along the lines of those three don't count, by the way. The first one simply means I'm looking at someone's case to see if it makes sense; I don't use the other two as an indication that I have a firm belief that a player is scum.)

Sadly, it does count.

In a PBPA of you, post #14, you state: "i'm trying to get the town back on track" i.e. scum hunting.

Primate posts his pictures and votes for you. You respond with post #15 on PBPA where you ask if Primate thinks you are a convenience store robber (and he is voting for you). So he is 'scum hunting' in a sense with his PR.

In post #17, You state that you are looking at Primate since people aren't scum hunting.

When he HAS voted for you and drawn a picture of you as a 'convenience store robber".

Why didn't you respond to this or care? He basically says you are scum, and then you shrug it off. You go on to state that you understand his pictures, his pictures are fine, leave him alone, (even though he did vote for you and he does have you marked as 100% scum) so why aren't my points valid?

Note: you can't say because he has no evidence, etc. since then that proves my point about his posts 'not contributing' in terms of his thinking/analysis, etc. which you state that you don't believe and you understand his posts fine.

Why the inconsistency? If you get his posts, he sees you as scum, then why not bash his PR or his logic or his reasoning? Instead, you just 'ignore' him and move on to other players.

So my point is Valid since you "do mention" Primate (so we can't accuse you later of completely ignoring him) but you pretty much do give him a jail out of free card in terms of his actions, etc.

--------------

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Primate hasn't said anything along the lines of why exactly I'm scummy, but I'm sure he has them.

What does this statement mean? You are sure he has them? Then why not ask him to elaborate? Why not ask him to prove his point with his PR or with words, etc. Instead you just let him call you scum, let him vote for you and then say, "I don't know, he has reasons... but yeah, I understand all of his picture posts and Corvuus' going after his PR (which is not voluntary) doesn't make sense".

What you did doesn't make sense. You could say, "I didn't think about it, or I didn't think of that" but seriously, you have pointed out 'everything' else that is 'wrong' with everyone else, I don't see why you would ignore Primate who IS voting you and does have picture of you being scum. I wouldn't have accused you of OMGUS if you asked for a better explanation , etc. or thought it was weird that Primate is pointing you out. Instead, you pretty much ignore it and go after ... Zeppo i think as "#1 or #2" on your list for asking Primate questions when really you should be asking Primate questions instead.

How does that make sense? You go after Zeppo for asking why Primate thinks you are scum but you don't go after Primate for thinking you are scum?

-------------------------

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

I have attacked them.

What should I say about this. You attacked me originally for going after a person with a PR (Primate, who you consider to have a PR and it not be voluntary despite no evidence to the contrary). Then you attack me for trying to put pressure on him to get him to stop/explain or contribute when he *has*. But his contribution, which you are aware, is to vote for you and say you are scum. I didn't see his vote (due to the picture format) and since you ignored him, I didn't think Primate did anything, but when I look back and see what happened, it is strange that Primate went after you as scum (and still is going after you) and yet you argue to protect him, his "PR", etc. Why not just let Primate handle it?

---------

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people.

I've cleared you because I feel you have explained yourself adequately. I don't have to approve of a Primate lynch to think you are town.

I don't get the above statement. You need to elaborate and state 100% whether you think Primate's PR is voluntary or real.

Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

So I'm somehow supposed to "lock" my vote and ignore other people's defenses. Right.

I've had my vote on you for awhile; in fact, I think I've had it on you the longest for the Primate case. I remember voting four people other than my random vote: Evilgorillaz, Cephrir, you, and Zeppo007, and I believe in that order. Three Mafia is standard in a mini, so I know all four of you can't be, but I fail to see where I'm being wishy-washy with my vote.

That isn't my point. I would just ask you this. Primate thinks you are scum. What is your defense and what do you say to Primate?

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Player X voting player Y for scummy action Z, whatever that might be ≠ player X being scum necessarily. For player Y to propose otherwise is OMGUS. Granted, I should have probed Primate for reasoning, but I cannot attack Primate solely because he voted me.

This is an error in logic. Primate isn't voting you for a specific scummy action Z. in fact, he never stated why he is voting for you or why he thinks you are scum which is the entire problem with Picture PR. I get that he thinks you are scum SC but why, how, etc. I don't know.

Now, if Player P(rimate) votes for Player SC for "no reason" as being 100% scum, then Player SC is PERFECTLY fine in saying that it is scummy for Player P to do so. It is like Cephrir voting without giving his reasons which you are QUICK to jump on... but when Primate did the same to you, you ignored him.

No one would have said that it was OMGUS for you to ask for a explanation so that you could actually respond and refute Primate's response.

So YES, you should (and from your actions against other players) would have gone after Primate for solely voting you for no "clearly" stated reason. if you can state Primate's reasons for voting for you here, then state them and refute them.

---------------

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

There is no need for me to panic over one or two votes. You have put me at L-4, which is not really a dangerous position in a mini, but being at L-4 does mean that you had best be explaining what you did, and I am doing so right now.

I agree that there is no need to panic over one or two votes. When I was going after Primate to clarify his PR, I would have kept going after him even if you all voted me to L-2.

However, your actions which are still ignoring Primate are highly questionable.

Primate has a ven diagram where he has you shown as 100% scum. Shouldn't you be angry? Shouldn't you fight back? Explain why you don't attack Primate's logic, his diagrams, etc. and why you don't think he is scum for what he is doing when you clearly think others are scum when they are doing virtually the equivalent.

It is that kind of selective bias that makes me think you are scum and that Primate may be scum who is half-trying to BUS you in order to 'prove' himself.

I see no reason for Primate to be "100%" sure and put you in the major scum category yet he does. Anyone with too much information or knowledge (especially in day 1) is generally scum. Why don't you call him on it? Ask him for reasons, explanations?

His first Picture vote could have been 'random' or just for fun, but his store robber vote is you, his ven diagram vote is you, etc. That seems pretty sure to me, and he has no reason for doing it unless he is scum. You also have no reason for why you would ignore him saying you are scum, voting for you, and you otherwise defending him and saying he can do his PR, etc. etc. unless you are trying to help him.

So go ahead and try to say I am reading too much into things. I am pretty sure i can knock out most of what you say.

Corvuus

[StrangerCoug]

Taking Corvuus's quotes out of mine.

If Cephrir is scummy to you then build a case on him and go for it. It isn't a issue of quality or quantity. It is an issue of you claiming you want to scumhunt, do stuff, etc. and then not actually doing it.

I think it's already clear that I don't like his bandwagoning and hesitation to give his vote reasons.

This is not a real answer and doesn't explain anything. You can say *now* that you are against a utility lynch but that isn't what you said back then.

When did I say that I approve of a utility lynch?

Can you elaborate on this? State what you understand, what you think, why, etc.

You said that you were voting Primate for pressure. He responded, you thus unvoted. I'm fine with pressure votes, which is why I'm dropping that as part of my case on you.

Sadly, it does count.

In a PBPA of you, post #14, you state: "i'm trying to get the town back on track" i.e. scum hunting.

Primate posts his pictures and votes for you. You respond with post #15 on PBPA where you ask if Primate thinks you are a convenience store robber (and he is voting for you). So he is 'scum hunting' in a sense with his PR.

I asked how my being a convenience store robber is relevant, not why he thinks so.

In post #17, You state that you are looking at Primate since people aren't scum hunting.

When he HAS voted for you and drawn a picture of you as a 'convenience store robber".

So that's where.

Why didn't you respond to this or care? He basically says you are scum, and then you shrug it off.

I responded with the convenience store robber question, though it is a valid point that I haven't really tackled it any further.

You go on to state that you understand his pictures, his pictures are fine, leave him alone, (even though he did vote for you and he does have you marked as 100% scum) so why aren't my points valid?

I'll be hanged if I know, considering that I understand your case on him now.

Note: you can't say because he has no evidence, etc. since then that proves my point about his posts 'not contributing' in terms of his thinking/analysis, etc. which you state that you don't believe and you understand his posts fine.

I am not saying Primate has no evidence of my being scum.

Why the inconsistency? If you get his posts, he sees you as scum, then why not bash his PR or his logic or his reasoning? Instead, you just 'ignore' him and move on to other players.

So my point is Valid since you "do mention" Primate (so we can't accuse you later of completely ignoring him) but you pretty much do give him a jail out of free card in terms of his actions, etc.

I see it worthless to attack a post restriction. I agree that his logic and reason, however, are lacking.

What does this statement mean? You are sure he has them? Then why not ask him to elaborate? Why not ask him to prove his point with his PR or with words, etc. Instead you just let him call you scum, let him vote for you and then say, "I don't know, he has reasons... but yeah, I understand all of his picture posts and Corvuus' going after his PR (which is not voluntary) doesn't make sense".

It'd be nice if his reasons were known, yes.

What you did doesn't make sense. You could say, "I didn't think about it, or I didn't think of that" but seriously, you have pointed out 'everything' else that is 'wrong' with everyone else, I don't see why you would ignore Primate who IS voting you and does have picture of you being scum. I wouldn't have accused you of OMGUS if you asked for a better explanation , etc. or thought it was weird that Primate is pointing you out. Instead, you pretty much ignore it and go after ... Zeppo i think as "#1 or #2" on your list for asking Primate questions when really you should be asking Primate questions instead.

I have been ignoring Primate for too long.

How does that make sense? You go after Zeppo for asking why Primate thinks you are scum but you don't go after Primate for thinking you are scum?

I am not going after Zeppo007 for asking Primate why he thinks I am scum, and he is as right as I should be to do so. I am, however, going after Zeppo007 for rolefishing.

I don't get the above statement. You need to elaborate and state 100% whether you think Primate's PR is voluntary or real.

I have reason to believe that it is real.

That isn't my point. I would just ask you this. Primate thinks you are scum. What is your defense and what do you say to Primate?

I'd still like an explanation on how exactly he concluded that I am scum. When I asked how the convenience store robber is relevant, he referenced the first post.

This is an error in logic. Primate isn't voting you for a specific scummy action Z. in fact, he never stated why he is voting for you or why he thinks you are scum which is the entire problem with Picture PR. I get that he thinks you are scum SC but why, how, etc. I don't know.

Now, if Player P(rimate) votes for Player SC for "no reason" as being 100% scum, then Player SC is PERFECTLY fine in saying that it is scummy for Player P to do so. It is like Cephrir voting without giving his reasons which you are QUICK to jump on... but when Primate did the same to you, you ignored him.

No one would have said that it was OMGUS for you to ask for a explanation so that you could actually respond and refute Primate's response.

So YES, you should (and from your actions against other players) would have gone after Primate for solely voting you for no "clearly" stated reason. if you can state Primate's reasons for voting for you here, then state them and refute them.

OK, I was being too conservative for my own good.
_____________________________________________________________

OK, now on to Primate, since it's been established that I've been ignoring him for too long:

• Why do you think I am scum?
  
• Who else do you think is scum and why?
  
• What do you think of Corvuus's case on me?
  
• What's your opinion of Zeppo007?

[Cephrir]

I'm getting a minor Scummy vibe from Cephir. This is mostly the vote without reasoning thing. Just coming from a game that I had a posting restriction in, I am willing to give Primate the benefit of the doubt right now....it is not easy and he has been doing pretty well with getting his point across with it.

I've explained every vote afterwards. Just not when saying so would defeat the purpose.

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Fail. Primate pointed out SC because he thinks he's scum, and incidentally you even agree with him. Assuming everything is bussing is not a good strategy.

SC, why don't you tell us what you think of who is your top two picks for being the most scummy.

It was you and Cephrir for the Primate case (you were pushing a utility lynch, Cephrir was mindlessly bandwagoning), but it's now Zeppo007 and Cephrir.

Not much has changed in terms of Cephrir, and I have seen him play more pro-town than hesitating to explain his votes.

I have not mindlessly bandwaggoned in this game. Each time I have had a reason. As I just explained, my Primate vote was intended to run him up far enough to force him to drop the PR. As I pretty much expected, no one got it and instead people suspected me for it.

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

Funny how going with the flow is exactly the opposite of the reason why I'm suspected. As I explained but you apparently skimmed, I was making that vote for reasons entirely independent of Corvuus', but explaining those reasons with the vote would have made them obsolete because then Primate would have known we had no intent to lynch him.

[MacavityLock]

There's kind of a overriding theme of Corvuus's most recent couple of posts that I really don't like. It's typified by the following:

Primate has a ven diagram where he has you shown as 100% scum. Shouldn't you be angry? Shouldn't you fight back? Explain why you don't attack Primate's logic, his diagrams, etc. and why you don't think he is scum for what he is doing when you clearly think others are scum when they are doing virtually the equivalent.

Throughout his last post, Corvuus is jumping all over SC for not attacking Primate. There's kind of a powerful assumption here: Corvuus is basically saying he expects that if a townie is attacked then that townie must attack back. There are so many problems with this assumption that I'm kind of doubting that Corvuus has a townie mindset here.

My major problem with Corvuus's argument is this: Isn't it possible for a townie to attack another townie? If townie A attacks townie B, but townie B doesn't think townie A is scummy, why would townie B attack back? Sure, townie B might defend himself.

Which leads me to my second problem: Part of the problem with Primate right now is that he can't/won't provide logic behind his attack, he's not to giving reasoning behind his diagrams. So, how can somebody attack Primate for his logic and reasoning right now? If he feels that strongly right now, isn't it Primate's job to convince the town that SC is scum?

Like I said, the thing that's really getting me here is Corvuus's assumption that a townie who is attacked must automatically assume that the attacker is scum. That's just not true.

FoS: Corvuus

.

[Zeppo007]

Zeppo, have you seen a yes or no answer from Primate on anything yet? That wasn't a rhetorical question.

If you count the dancing smiley as a yes then yes. If you don't then no.

Also not to play the newbie card but I had no idea what people were saying about fishing till I saw your post about Rolefishing. I'm sure this is not the first or last mistake I'm gonna make in this game but I'll take the heat for it and try and explain my intentions.

[Corvuus]

....

Ok. Let me try again since it seems like people don't see what I was doing with primate and don't see what I am doing with SC.

Since this is most likely a 3 mafia game, this is good to see where everyone stands on this anyways.

1st of all, regardless of what any of you say or try to go back and change, Primate has gone after SC and voted for him as scum.

That is a fact. There is no evidence, logic or reason given then due to the picture PR.

I then made my comments on this and then went after Primate for it. We have no scum-tells, town-tells or anything from him. How can we argue, defend, or do anything against what he does was my entire basis for this. This is also a fact which I think most of you would agree with.

Primate needs to respond more and show his case, etc. etc. and we should all look forward to it.

-----------------------

Now MacavityLock points out I am making an assumptions that Townies would attack other townies, etc.

That is a logical fallacy. I am stating that townies would DEFEND themselves. Primate said SC is scum twice, and has voted for him with no stated reasons.

SC ignored this and didn't defend himself, point it out, etc.

This is inconsistent with his meta play. He has gone after others for voting without stating reason or claiming things without reason.

So you are asking me to ignore this glaring inconsistency where Primate has voted for SC (not random vote, Evilgorrilaz was Primate's random vote) and has made two pictures of SC being scum.

SC also never asked why, or cared about Primate's PR, etc. etc. until I started going after him on it.

I find this incredible that SC would not go after Primate at all until I go after him for it.

So don't misrepresent my position on attack. It is SC not defending against Primate AND SC actually DEFENDING Primate which is weird. Especially now that SC, because i am after him for it, has to ask Primate to state his case.

I could post much more but I think we should let Primate (and others) weigh in.

Corvuus

[Cephrir]

That is a logical fallacy. I am stating that townies would DEFEND themselves. Primate said SC is scum twice, and has voted for him with no stated reasons.

SC ignored this and didn't defend himself, point it out, etc.

What you're ignoring is that defending oneself is not the same as attacking your attackers. Defending himself is precisely what SC just attempted to do. What MacavityLock was pointing out is that since townies can attack other townies, it is possible to be attacked by someone and still not think they are scum. The second and third sentences of what I just quoted have

noting to do with one another.

So you are asking me to ignore this glaring inconsistency where Primate has voted for SC (not random vote, Evilgorrilaz was Primate's random vote) and has made two pictures of SC being scum.

Primate is obviously choosing to render himself incapable of giving reasons. However this is a good point.

[Corvuus]

I don't understand your point in your post Ceph.

I am not saying SC *has* to attack Primate. He doesn't.

"Defending himself is precisely what SC just attempted to do.".

Well, why is he doing it only *now* after it has become a big deal and not before. He can't just say "it didn't occur to him" or things like that, since that isn't the type of player he is.

In terms of meta, he isn't the type to ignore things that he can go after 'easily'. Zeppo was asking Primate for reasons (how could he know SC was scum, evidence, etc.) and yet SC went after it as role-fishing. I don't see it as rolefishing but just misrepresentation of SC on Zeppo.

He has gone after me or others (in various ways) for it, and it is his meta play.

Now, SC *could* have ignored Primate's posts as silly or nothing... but then he argues against me that he understands Primate's posts, his PR, etc. etc. If he accepted that Primate's posts were 'useless' and pointless then how could he defend Primate against me, when I ask that Primate do more since we can't get evidence or anything out of him?

The meta explanation of this doesn't make sense. The most reasonable meta explanation is that Primate and SC are both scum. This explains all their actions, posts, defense, etc.

Primate is using a voluntary PR. I am 99% sure.

Corvuus

[Apothecary]

I did find it kind of odd SC didn't try to defend himself from Primate's accusations. But I don't know if that's a sign of a passive scum or a passive townie.

[Atlas]

Post coming later today.

[StrangerCoug]

I did find it kind of odd SC didn't try to defend himself from Primate's accusations. But I don't know if that's a sign of a passive scum or a passive townie.

What do you mean "accusations"? Hasn't it been established that Primate voted me without a reason?

[MacavityLock]

I did find it kind of odd SC didn't try to defend himself from Primate's accusations. But I don't know if that's a sign of a passive scum or a passive townie.

What do you mean "accusations"? Hasn't it been established that Primate voted me without a reason?

Um, no. Just because he hasn't given a reason doesn't mean he doesn't have one. I would like to hear from Primate though.