Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[farside22]

This vote count is brought to you the people who want vote counts on the top of every page.
I hope you are happy. :

Dukes 3 votes: (pacman281292, Zorblag, kloud1516 )
pacman281292 2 vote: (dukes, Kmd4390)

Not voting:

LlamaFluff
Jahudo
wolframnhart
Drunken Piper
Porochaz

Day 2 Deadline Nov 18th 4:00pm PST
With 10 alive it will take 6 to lynch.

[pacman281292]

@Dukes:
Why don't you get what I say?!
I AM VOTING YOU DUE TO THE WAY YOU HAVE STRAWMANNED AND ATTACKED ME WITH WEAK BASIS!

Oops, Kmd makes a good point... I need to reread that part...

[Kmd4390]

Can we get a vote count?

[Drunken Piper]

I am a rhyming fool,
which has made me beer's tool

(sip)

DP -- I'm looking into other GW games as you suggested, and your meta-ing so far seems to be an honest play. My apologies.

to jahudo as well, the best is a current game...if you meta it, you will find it...as for the older games, I will have to find them...of course, they are hardly needed now, that he has been replaced. the reason I thought he was scummy was because I feel he lurks on purpose and posts just enough to scoot by...this is not the case in this game. I will still provide the links if you are just fact checking my meta to see if I am on the up and up..let me know if you still want them

JOAT is Jack Of All Trades.

Wiki doesn't elaborate on which roles they will have, but just says that once a role is used, it can't be used again. I'd never heard of this, but anything is possible as long as the game balancing is there.

I have seen JoaT have cop, doc, vig, posion, tracking, watching, and Nk immune abilities...but they can only be used once.

DP always plays with couplets, I can give you an example in a couple of days if needed. Please dont read into it him doing that, its not a PR.

QFT, and I actually toned it down to just one per post...I used to only post in couplets (see former games and title thread)

kloud, can you please (re)state your position on Poro for me....and your thought on Llama (now)...have they changed for either person since yesterday? why?

Dukes, I assume when you say "clear"..you mean town vibe right?

[Zorblag]

OK, I've finished up a busy stretch in RL and should have more time to pay attention to this game. Sorry for being absent for the past couple days.

I suppose I can see how Dukes might feel that I've been ignoring the other players and focusing just on him. I don't think that's actually the case; I have commented on whether I thought various other things seemed scummy or not. The difference is primarily that I've found Dukes's behavior to be on the scummy side and I've been closer to neutral with most other things I've seen. I do have some concern that Dukes could just be a player who's getting used to this setting but I'm not going to give him an innocent because he's new card; I will keep an open mind and if someone else seems scummier as we go I'll switch my vote accordingly.

I sympathize with Drunken Piper about his previous suspicion of GhostWriter. I tend to think that lurkers are a danger and he was citing a particular meta he was working off. I don't think I wouldn't have voted based on that in his place but I'm glade the vote has been removed. I suppose that I do have trouble telling who he might think is scum past that so perhaps at this point I think that his GhostWriter ideas seem like they were good scumhunting if the meta is reliable but past that I've not seen much to make me think he's not scum.

I do still like Jahudo's play for the most part. There's not all that much of it to go by but he hasn't done anything which raises any particular alarms for me. I'd like to see more so I've got a larger information base from which to form my opinions but on the other hand I've been as guilty as anyone of not being about of late.

Kloud1516 has come under more fire than many for a couple things (Porochaz, his vote for Dukes) and thus far I think that his explanations are entirely plausible.

I do believe that KMD4390 has taken the time to look at everything that has happened thus far and I like that. He has chosen to focus slightly on Pacman281292 for terse posting. I agree that the posts have been terse and that having no opinions on most of the players is noteworthy but this perhaps feels like something along the lines of lurking while posting so I'm slightly surprised that you differentiate as much as you do between him and Drunken Piper.

LlamaFluff has been largely consistent this second day (which follows from what he said the first day.) I am curious to see where he plans on going now that he has unvoted. I do have minor concerns that he might be dropping his Wolframnhart thrust because he doesn't seem to be making headway with it. That he hasn't focused as much on Dukes despite naming Dukes as someone he finds suspicious makes me leery of potential distancing without action to back it up. Mostly I need to see where he's planning on going next at this point.

As I said earlier, I do agree that Pacman281292's posts have been largely terse and that other than his dislike of Duke's play I can't tell much about what he thinks about other players. I don't particularly love his classification of Porochaz's play as wierd but that's probably largely because at this point I think that Xtoxm's reaction to the SK comment at the start was just poor play on Xtoxm's part. I suppose I should ask whether, other than the strawmanning which has been brought up repeatedly, why are you so set on lynching Dukes (or is that enough?)

I apparently disagree with Porochaz about how useful the day one interaction might have been but that's fine, I disagree with many people about many things. On the whole it seems like Porochaz is trying as much as anyone to find scum without making assumptions about who scum is at this point. I'm leaning towards townie for Porochaz.

I don't actually love Wolframnhart's "Good news everyone! A good chunk of us are alive!" to start day two but I don't think I'll hold it against him. I did my complaining at the start of the day and that covered my opinions just fine I think. As I said before, I think his reactions to Xtoxm were reasonable and I like that he's not tying up all his thoughts dealing with the suspicion he might be getting because of it.

I'm not having much luck this game deciding who I think is likely to be scum. As I've said, I don't like many of the actions Dukes has made but beyond that I apologize for not being that helpful. I will continue to watch but I'm at more of a loss than I feel like I should be at this point in a game. If I had to pick 3 scum it might be Dukes and then two of Drunken Piper, LlamaFluff and Pacman281292 but what they say next will have a huge influence on that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Drunken Piper]

oh me oh my,
is that a slip I see go by?

If I

had to pick 3 scum

it might be Dukes and then two of Drunken Piper, LlamaFluff and Pacman281292 but what they say next will have a huge influence on that.

(guzzle)...why are you picking 3 scum over just 2 left? Especially with a Sk dead? Do you have knowledge we dont? I assumed the mafia team would be 2 in a 12 person game with a SK...am I missing something?

vote Zorblag

please explain why you decided to pick that number? did someone say pick a top scum list of 3 and I miss it?

[Zorblag]

(guzzle)...why are you picking 3 scum over just 2 left? Especially with a Sk dead? Do you have knowledge we dont? I assumed the mafia team would be 2 in a 12 person game with a SK...am I missing something?

vote Zorblag

please explain why you decided to pick that number? did someone say pick a top scum list of 3 and I miss it?

That's a fair question. I think that it's safe to say that there shouldn't be more than 3 scum in a 12 player game with a SK. My choice of top 3 candidates (which I actually failed to meet given that I'm not that comfortable calling most scum so far this game) was mostly an attempt to work with the outer bounds of potential scum this game. Given that I think there shouldn't be more scum than that I'm giving a larger pool based on what I've seen from the players. If it helps at all my top 2 scum would have looked the same as I'm not overly suspicious of any of the three past Dukes listed.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Dukes]

To be honest, DP -- and yeah, when I said "clear" I meant "town vibe" -- I don't think that's the best of reasons to vote Zorblag. Llama started by naming Wolf, Kloud, and myself as suspects sometime early on Day 2. Zorblag's not the first person to run with the number 3 -- I was working under the assumption of a 3-man Mafia as well. Also, to be fair, it's better to give more names than fewer. By the way, you bring a six-pack for the rest of us? I could use some beer right now.

As I said, Zorblag, it was frustrating but understandable. Thank you for going into more detail as to your feelings on others. I will agree that Jahudo is the tough nut to crack; however, I'm willing to wait on Llama until he gets in a re-evaluation. As it stands now, he has three targets -- named above -- and I'm pretty certain he's 0 for 3. I'm not sure whether Wolf's statement was theme-humor or a roleclaim, and Kloud has laid out his argument very well.

At this point, the only person I'm picking up more bad than good is Pacman, hence my vote. I feel more confident about you, although if you go and pull an Xtoxm over DP's claim I'm going to laugh bitterly.

All in all, this is one of the most difficult games to read I've ever been in. I love it.

[kloud1516]

kloud, can you please (re)state your position on Poro for me....and your thought on Llama (now)...have they changed for either person since yesterday? why?

Yes, I can.

Thoughts on Poro:

My position/opinion of him yesterday was one of uncertainty, due to feelings I have already expressed. The whole xtoxm situation kicked up a conundrum of conflicting thoughts, but as today has progressed, my earlier weariness has eased somewhat due to his consistent submission of logical, analytical posts. He has questioned several players if I am not mistaken, and voiced his opinion of other discussions, making me believe that he is making an active effort to contribute and look into the actions of all players. At the moment, I am more inclined to say he is town because of said factors, but at this stage one can never completely certain.

Thoughts on LF:

To be honest, I have a fairly neutral vibe on LF. Nothing he has done thus far has drawn my suspicions, and he too has posted content inclusive of almost every player in this game. He has exhibited (in my opinion) traits that make me feel he is more likely aggressive town, for this is a characteristic of his play that I have seen in past games, but at the same time this quality of this play causes me to have reservations about him. I feel he jumped the gun when saying that I was trying to begin forming a case on Poro because of xtoxm's comments, and pushed the notion coming into Day 2. Granted, I feel this situation was more of a misinterpretation of posts, but something about it just doesn't sit well with me.

[LlamaFluff]

Reread are always good, they make you realize the really obvious stuff that you missed the first go around. I am going to go ahead and

unvote, vote pacman

.

I still hold wolf as scummy, and there are many worse lynches that we can do then him today, but pacman comes off as much scummier after my read of the game.

In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

When attention Is called to this, he FoSed Poro for seemingly unrelated reasons, and just stated he was confused, thinking that this was a joke instead of anything else. If it was a joke why the need to FoS poro, or even fail to mention it until prompted?

Calls the FoS on poro for doing something “really weird” which never got elaborated on. Still little mention of the exchange between the two players at this point.

Now he jumps to the xtoxm = jester conclusion. While I guess this finally gives some input to the conflict that is occurring, it really doesn’t add anything. He spends more of the time at the end of D1 mocking xtoxm instead of working on any theories, or even responding the ideas that I was creating.

Today we started off with the “damn” post which is a weak tell, but it still sets me off a bit when there is a comment of how the night panned out without any real backing to it, such as claiming a kill as from a vig, or protecting (or more in this case RBing) a kill.

Most of the case that pacman uses against Dukes is weak at best (which is ironic since that is the reasoning he voted Dukes), and OMGUS at worst (which it is more to me). The vote is also made for “strawmanning” which I really don’t think occurred in this case. I am bad with the word, but have never seen it used on the first post a player makes in a game, even more so a joke post.

Later pacman goes on to say that his FoS on Poro was due to the fact that he did not understand his post against xtoxm early on, the one that he thought was a breadcrumb. This doesn’t hold up with his explaination of people later, in which he lists me, DP and kloud as “don’t understand” and no read on kmd and wolf (wolf is interesting here since I had pressed him already at this point). Using similar logic he should of FoSed us all at some point if he is confused.

So I feel that pac is using some very weak reasoning to be voting for Dukes, that stems mostly from an OMGUS origin. When you add on the fact that he has avoided most of the topics of conversation for the day, both the poro/xtoxm exchange for the early stages, and my attack on the players who I believe acted subpar and tried to set up D2 lynch before D1 completed.

Also I know this is going to get asked so I will say it now. I still consider wolf a decent lynch for today. At this point though pacman is looking like a better lynch.

[Jahudo]

I will still provide the links if you are just fact checking my meta to see if I am on the up and up

No, that’s okay. Ghost only had one post so I don’t think the lurking was intentional or else he would have posted enough to scoot by, like you say. And I recognized your vote as honest pressure and not inflating a case.

Jahudo -- playing his cards somewhat close to the vest

What does that mean exactly?

The vote is also made for “strawmanning” which I really don’t think occurred in this case. I am bad with the word, but have never seen it used on the first post a player makes in a game, even more so a joke post.

Well, strawmanning is taking a small piece of someone’s case and saying it’s incorrect, ergo the whole case must be incorrect, right?

In our case, Dukes was making the case against pacman for not paying attention to the SK threat. Dukes does not present the whole truth in his case, so pacman is saying that he’s being strawmanned.

I do think that Dukes took some things out of context but ironically I find pacman strawmanning Dukes because pacman points out this context error but does not acknowledge that pacman was not paying attention to the SK threat. I think pacman was more confused about what happened then talked about a jester role, so he didn’t ignore X, but he didn’t pay any attention to people talking about X is SK or X is scum, and that is a good accusation to bring against him.

But Dukes took pacman’s first two votes out of context, both of which were jokes. He then exaggerated the pacman FoS on Poro, which wasn’t bolded and I think pacman’s FoS was another joke anyway. And pacman said he was confused about the SK claim 20 minutes after his joke votes, so the accusation that he was pressured by poro to get involved does not seem as strong a case. Throughout the day I've found Dukes to be probing suspicion like this and am starting to find it more scummy, although his defenses have seemed to come from a town so I'm not sure this is the best candidate for a vote.

@LlamaFluff
-It is valid that Pacman should have gone directly into the SK talk and ignored the random joke vote phase, but his joke post and his "I’m confused" post were 20 minutes apart in time so I disagree that he was trying to derail anything.

-I agree that talking about the jester but ignoring other people’s opinions on X as SK or X as scum is being anti-town. I think it is slightly scummy because he is trying to keep X alive instead of deciding if X is better of dead or alive.

-Zorblag describes pacman’s posting as terse. Do you agree with this?

I have a meta on pacman where he was scum if you are interested but I am still thinking he may be this way as town too.

Back to Dukes: Do you disagree with my opinion that you took pacman’s early actions and either exaggerated the intention or took them out of context?

[Dukes]

The whole "close to the vest" thing means that it's just hard to get a read on you. This may be more me than you, though.

When you look at it the way you have, yes, it appears I exaggerated their intent. I saw how he played after that phase (scared of voting for an avowed SK and basically being terse as Zorblag puts it), then went back and analyzed too much. That said, I'm not about to remove my vote, since the most recent part of his play has been very unhelpful. I don't quite think straw-manning as you defined it applies, but I'm not sure

what

I'd call it. (Dismissing the whole argument based on misreading the first part would be straw-manning, for example, but you're not doing that so that's out too. Am I making sense?)

Anyway, Llama: you say that Wolf would be a good "future lynch". Apart from the fact that he took the possibility of X's "scum-day-cop" accusation as being feasible, what other evidence is there?

[pacman281292]

Reread are always good, they make you realize the really obvious stuff that you missed the first go around. I am going to go ahead and

unvote, vote pacman

.
.
.
.
In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

When attention Is called to this, he FoSed Poro for seemingly unrelated reasons, and just stated he was confused, thinking that this was a joke instead of anything else. If it was a joke why the need to FoS poro, or even fail to mention it until prompted?

Calls the FoS on poro for doing something “really weird” which never got elaborated on. Still little mention of the exchange between the two players at this point.

Now he jumps to the xtoxm = jester conclusion. While I guess this finally gives some input to the conflict that is occurring, it really doesn’t add anything. He spends more of the time at the end of D1 mocking xtoxm instead of working on any theories, or even responding the ideas that I was creating.

Today we started off with the “damn” post which is a weak tell, but it still sets me off a bit when there is a comment of how the night panned out without any real backing to it, such as claiming a kill as from a vig, or protecting (or more in this case RBing) a kill.

Most of the case that pacman uses against Dukes is weak at best (which is ironic since that is the reasoning he voted Dukes), and OMGUS at worst (which it is more to me). The vote is also made for “strawmanning” which I really don’t think occurred in this case. I am bad with the word, but have never seen it used on the first post a player makes in a game, even more so a joke post.

Later pacman goes on to say that his FoS on Poro was due to the fact that he did not understand his post against xtoxm early on, the one that he thought was a breadcrumb. This doesn’t hold up with his explaination of people later, in which he lists me, DP and kloud as “don’t understand” and no read on kmd and wolf (wolf is interesting here since I had pressed him already at this point). Using similar logic he should of FoSed us all at some point if he is confused.

So I feel that pac is using some very weak reasoning to be voting for Dukes, that stems mostly from an OMGUS origin. When you add on the fact that he has avoided most of the topics of conversation for the day, both the poro/xtoxm exchange for the early stages, and my attack on the players who I believe acted subpar and tried to set up D2 lynch before D1 completed.

Also I know this is going to get asked so I will say it now. I still consider wolf a decent lynch for today. At this point though pacman is looking like a better lynch.

First part: I didn't pay attention to Xtoxm's claim because I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. When attention turned to him, I still thought that he would be rather a vi (no offense) or a jester or a mafiate making a really weird gambit.
Second part: My FoS on Poro was half a joke, half a very weird thought.
Third part: Read the post of the FoS. "That is called a joke, as you said from your own post".
Fourth part: A SK claim is very weird, and I didn't call it; the claim did really confuse me.
Fifth part: Does not compute... *explodes*
NOTE: This is not a breadcrumb. Seriously. I just didn't understand that part.
Sixth part: Dukes started attacking me due to my votes day 1, which were made just ON THE SAME POST. He said that I did make a vote to the first person who asked me about that: FAKE.
I also think that I misused the term; it means something like the take of a little part of the post ignoring the other part and making a weak attack based on that.
Please explain why do you think my case on Dukes is OMGUS on the worst case.
Seventh part: You didn't understand what I meant on wolf; I meant that I had the same on him than on you, i.e, I didn't understand well in him... maybe due to stupidness (from me)?
The part on Poro looks like a misunderstanding from me; Xtoxm did really confuse me... ouch...
I had no read on Kmd because I had no read on GW and because Kmd did just enter to the game.
I didn't get the last part of that paragraph. what did you try to say?
Final part: Holy jamaican limbo stick! What did you mean with that?! I didn't pay many attention to Poro/Xtoxm because that got me really insane...

[Jahudo]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

[Jahudo]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

[Kmd4390]

I didn't pay many attention to Poro/Xtoxm because that got me really insane...

It was the major issue in the game at that point. There was a claimed SK and accusations of a mafia day cop. You could have given thoughts on that.

[Porochaz]

pacman, have you watched futurama before?

[kloud1516]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

I too would like a response to this. Why focus on one possibility (an extreme one at that), as opposed to trying to look at multiple scenarios?

[pacman281292]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

Because I got completely lost with the claim. Who in world would openly claim SK? Poro's guess looks like a lucky shot or possibly meta, and Xtoxm's posts after that totally confused me. I totally thought that he might be a jester trying to attract attention, or possibly a scumbag making a really weird gambit. Or a total VI (no offense). Or, possibly, a SK annoyed of his role. I did really consider multiple possibilities, but I didn't consider this possibility enough well... and it showed up to be correct... ouch.

pacman, have you watched futurama before?

Yeah. I LOVE it. That's why I pre-inned to this inmediately when I saw this on farside's sig .

[LlamaFluff]

First part: I didn't pay attention to Xtoxm's claim because I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. When attention turned to him, I still thought that he would be rather a vi (no offense) or a jester or a mafiate making a really weird gambit.

There is a difference in not believing something and not commenting on something. When something significant happens in one of the early post of the games and you decide to random vote after it, and not even comment on it untill someone asked you too, that is scummy as you are ignoring the main topic of converstation.

Second part: My FoS on Poro was half a joke, half a very weird thought.

Again, why a joke? We were out of the random stage as far as I was concerned after xotxm claimed SK. Also wierd thought? You call it metagaming, breadcrumb or joke in this post. Which means you FoSed him due to meta reasons, since I see no reason to FoS for breadcrumbing and you established it was a joke and something else.

Third part: Read the post of the FoS. "That is called a joke, as you said from your own post".

So its just a joke and not mixed with a wierd thought?

Fifth part: Does not compute... *explodes*

It is considered a weak tell to comment on the outcome of a night. The breadcrumb comment here is funny though.

Please explain why do you think my case on Dukes is OMGUS on the worst case.

There are some decent reasons to vote Dukes as he has dropped some tells, but the fact that you are using mostly reasons that he voted you while ignoring other reasons makes me think you are using OMGUS. My comment there was saying you are using weak reasoning to base a case off, or OMGUS. A weak case is still a case (best), OMGUS is just bad (worst).

You didn't understand what I meant on wolf; I meant that I had the same on him than on you, i.e, I didn't understand well in him... maybe due to stupidness (from me)?
The part on Poro looks like a misunderstanding from me; Xtoxm did really confuse me... ouch...

I think this may of been a mutual misunderstanding. It seemed like you later said part of the reason you FoSed Poro was that he confused you. Is that true?

I didn't get the last part of that paragraph. what did you try to say?
Final part: Holy jamaican limbo stick! What did you mean with that?! I didn't pay many attention to Poro/Xtoxm because that got me really insane...

Was more of a tl;dr of why I am voting you. I think the case you have going against Dukes is pretty weak, and it seems to be at least part based on OMGUS. The fact that you manage to distance yourself from topics of conversation such as the early parts of the xtoxm/poro debate and what I had to say about wolf/duke/kloud D1 are scummy to me since you dont have to pick sides in the arguement.

[Drunken Piper]

going to Chicago to get down.
will be posting Monday when I get back into town.

[farside22]

Prodded Zorblag and Wolf.

[wolframnhart]

hey got my prod, sorry really didn't realize it was monday as my last posting day, I will post in more detail tomorrow after i get home from work.

[Drunken Piper]

to be safe and while away from my shack..
I will

unvote

until I get back

[Zorblag]

Ah, it has been a while since I posted last. Sorry; it continues to be busy here.

Not that much has happened in the past couple days but I suppose I can talk about LlamaFluff. I see that he has moved his vote to pacman281292 and I think his case looks reasonable and well thought out. The only reason that I'll raise anything close to an objection is that he is moving to one of the players with more suspicion. If LlamaFluff were scum with Dukes and Wolframnhart were town that move would be the right one to make as the Wolframnhart attack didn't seem to be gaining any momentum and it has helped to draw more attention away from Dukes. On the other hand, as I said, pacman281292 would be on my short list of people to fucus on as well so a town LlamaFluff would probably make the same move. When someone else flips one way or the other I'll be able to make more of this but it is the recent play that I'm paying most attention to at this point.

I also don't love that Drunken Piper took his vote off me overly. He was reading into my phrasing than was actually there but I liked the fact that he was looking carefully at what was said. As he hasn't done anything to implicate anyone else since voting for me I'd very much like to hear his thoughts at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh