Mini 702--Serum & Steel(The rust has settled/Game Over)

[Timeater]

How is that an OMGUS? My reasons are totally legitimate for feeling the way I do about SpyreX. Just dismissing what I have to say and calling me a newbscum isn't helping either, Wall-E.

[Natirasha]

I forgot to say that CF_Riot replaced Iron Man, kk?

[Wall-E]

How is that an OMGUS? My reasons are totally legitimate for feeling the way I do about SpyreX. Just dismissing what I have to say and calling me a newbscum isn't helping either, Wall-E.

Let's see if anyone agrees with what I said. If anybody disagrees, I'll read their argument why I'm wrong and defend my claim.

Since, you know, you've done nothing to do so. I think it might be more WIFOM from you anyway, so color me unsurprised if you don't.

[SpyreX]

You know I'm not heavily perusing that case.

Of those not posting here, Sera posted the most somewhere else. I called him out on it is all, really.

And of course Timeaters case is well thought out and no OMGUS at all.

[Wall-E]

I agree that I feel Timeater's case was OMGUSy.

[Timeater]

Well this is pointless because its just the three of us posting and I'm not very confident about either of you. You're pushing me towards a pbpa and I really dont want to do one, because they're just so time consuming and I told myself I'm gonna wait until more people post.

Will the other 9 people please stand up?

[SpyreX]

Ooou, a PbPA on me? I've never had one.

Does it hurt?

Does it tingle?

[Seraphim]

Alright. Finished reading. Time to get to scumhunting! 8D

First of all: I think Timeater's claim may be correct. Seeing as he can't be killed by anything, I say we lynch him today to confirm if he's metal or not. If he lied to stay alive, well, he's probably scum then. Therefore, he dies. Even if the claim that he is metal is correct, however, there's still a problem that he may be metal scum.

Nextly, I feel as if the random serum-giving...well, it doesn't feel right to me. Sure, it's unbiased, but...meh. I don't like the idea of town wasting such a lethal power on a potential scum/lurker. So...

I think that if anyone gets the Serum, he/she should post the following morning with whatever role they recieved and what they did with it that night.

Does anyone disagree with this?

[Wall-E]

So you're for the plan as long as the recipient claims their power?

There's something off about that, but...

In light of the fact that it's public knowledge that the player DID receive a power, I think you may be right in this case. I'm going to throw support behind this suggestion.

[CF Riot]

TE's

's Claim: Don't give him the serum, because I don't see any benefit from him having it. Whether or not he's scum is taking me longer to decide. He really reads to me to be an overeager newbie who's just way too excited that he got a good role. I'd put him at 60/40 town/scum.

Wall-E

:

I am against ANYONE claiming unprovoked.

Does not match how I've seen you play elsewhere.

I would rather the serum be used and that assigning

not

be random. Giving the serum to inexperienced or uninvolved players is increasing the chances that it is not used optimally. For instance (using non-players), I as a cognitive being can understand why Mith should get a PR instead of Gimbo, assuming that I can't see any alignment differences between the two. A die cannot, and should not be in charge of making that selection.

I read

Porkens

as pro-town.

To

Wall-E

and everyone else, I think if you believe TE actually

is

metal, whether you think he's town or scum, you should

not

be trying to lynch him, as you are essentially voting to no-lynch. Also, if he is town, you are proving to the scum that he's metal without them testing it out with a kill of their own. (I doubt scum would try this, but you see my point.)

Wall-E and SpyreX are dorks. (Spyre's posting theme in the beginning of the game, and Wall-E's "Newbscum virus outbreak" post.) This is okay because I'm a big dork too. <3

TE

, I know you may feel like SpyreX's focus on you may seem scummy from your point of view, (if you're telling the truth) but for everyone else who doesn't know your alignment, we have

zero

reason to trust you. Try to take yourself out of the situation and look at it objectively. There are scum motives and town motives to do what you've done, and now the town has to try to decide which it is. It's not unlikely for a townie to come down on the side against you.

[Wall-E]

CF's right. I agree with the let's-not-lynch-TE-and-waste-the-lynch argument. Let's either mycosynth or ignore him for today.

[Wall-E]

I would rather the serum be used and that assigning not be random. Giving the serum to inexperienced or uninvolved players is increasing the chances that it is not used optimally. For instance (using non-players), I as a cognitive being can understand why Mith should get a PR instead of Gimbo, assuming that I can't see any alignment differences between the two. A die cannot, and should not be in charge of making that selection.

You seem to be the Yin to Porkens' Yang on this issue. I think the middle ground has been my random serum plan. If you can convince me why we should listen to you on the serum's distribution, I'll join your cause.

[ortolan]

I think that if anyone gets the Serum, he/she should post the following morning with whatever role they recieved and what they did with it that night.

I agree with this, I kind of expected this would happen when I put forward my plan. After all, there's not really much harm in scum finding out what the ability is after it's been used once, because using the serum on somebody twice means they will die if not given it continually, and I don't think we're going to want to be giving the serum twice to anybody early in the game.

To

Wall-E

and everyone else, I think if you believe TE actually

is

metal, whether you think he's town or scum, you should

not

be trying to lynch him, as you are essentially voting to no-lynch. Also, if he is town, you are proving to the scum that he's metal without them testing it out with a kill of their own. (I doubt scum would try this, but you see my point.)

I agree with this argument also. I don't think whether Timeater is metal or not is really in question, it is more a matter of his alignment. The only reason I can think of for him claiming to be a metal townie when in fact he is fleshie scum is that it would provide an excuse as to why he was not night-killed immediately after gaining the serum. He can say scum didn't target him because, of course, he is metal. That said I'm not sure the benefits of this in the case he got the serum outweighed the possibility we would vote to lynch or mycosynth him, either of which would reveal whether he is metal or not. So in summary we should be debating his alignment but probably not whether he is metallic/non-metallic.

[ortolan]

Also, I am still for the random serum assigning method but there seems to be a slight issue.

Tuberkulos, the beneficiary of the random serum vote has only made two posts in the thread- a confirmation one and an entirely contentless one. There may be two reasons not to give the serum to him. Firstly, if he has been this inactive he may not even bother or get the chance to put in a night action. Secondly if people think lurking to that degree makes it more likely that he is scum then it may be worthwhile to reconsider.

That said I am not in any way trying to undermine the random process which led to the allocation of serum to him, but there may be good pragmatic reasons for randomly selecting someone else to give the serum to- perhaps we could randomly select from the sufficiently active players this game? While lurking doesn't necessarily indicate one is scum, it seems contributing in large quantities certainly wouldn't suggest one is scum either. Furthermore selecting someone who's actually going to use the serum and has contributed in decent quantities will make for a more interesting game and (possibly) make town more likely to win.

[CF Riot]

This was supposed to be connected to my first post but I hit 'Submit' by accident.

Seraphim

, I'm against the idea of posting what we do with the Serum right away. As scum, there's nothing I like more than seeing a town lay out every piece of information they have hoping it will strengthen the town. It's incredibly easy for scum to take what appears to be a well thought out plan and turn it on it's head because

they know things we don't

. To assume they won't be able to manipulate ideas put in plain daylight is underestimating your opponent. I think how the serum is used by each player is circumstantial, so we shouldn't have a policy that applies to every circumstance.

As far as I can tell, there are no side effects to throwing a non-metal player into the mycosynth. As such, I think a mycosynth majority should happen

every day

. There

will

be at least 1 metal scum, I'm sure of it.

I checked page 1, and I am entitled as a replacement to request to extend the deadline by 3 days. Does anyone need it? I thought it'd take me longer than this to catch up but I'm okay now.

Wall-E

, I explained my reason already. I don't know how else to say it. Some people are more considerate of their options and the possible consequences of those options than others. If you let the dice pick, you're taking away valid judgments that can be made towards a person's ability to choose wisely. I'm not worried about random voting giving the serum to scum, I'm worried about giving it to a townie that will waste it or use it ineffectively.

Mycosynth: Wall-E
Vote: Seraphim

No Serum vote yet. For the others, Wall-E seems suspicious to me, but as a disclaimer to that, he seems suspicious to me in every game I see him in. Therefore, he gets Myco'd. Seraphim got voted for not being around, then immediately showed up out of thin air. That tells me he's paying attention and choosing not to post.

With that, I think I've already passed about half the town in post content in a bit more than 24 hours. Applause are welcome.

[Wall-E]

Seems suspicious is an awfully weird case.

I'm flesh, so be gentle when you lower me in that vat. I don't want to bruise a knee.

[ortolan]

This was supposed to be connected to my first post but I hit 'Submit' by accident.

Seraphim

, I'm against the idea of posting what we do with the Serum right away. As scum, there's nothing I like more than seeing a town lay out every piece of information they have hoping it will strengthen the town. It's incredibly easy for scum to take what appears to be a well thought out plan and turn it on it's head because

they know things we don't

. To assume they won't be able to manipulate ideas put in plain daylight is underestimating your opponent. I think how the serum is used by each player is circumstantial, so we shouldn't have a policy that applies to every circumstance...

If you let the dice pick, you're taking away valid judgments that can be made towards a person's ability to choose wisely. I'm not worried about random voting giving the serum to scum, I'm worried about giving it to a townie that will waste it or use it ineffectively.

This seems _slightly_ contradictory because the whole idea of random voting is that there is nothing systematic in it that the scum can try to manipulate. Your very idea of giving it to the townie judged the "best" seems to be something that could easily fit into the category of something the scum could manipulate. That's why I proposed random voting within certain constraints i.e. only among those who have contributed a certain amount. I explained why I didn't believe this made us more likely to pick scum because simply posting lots doesn't make one more likely to be scum, indeed there may be a small effect that posting less makes you more likely to be scum, on average.

As far as I can tell, there are no side effects to throwing a non-metal player into the mycosynth. As such, I think a mycosynth majority should happen

every day

. There

will

be at least 1 metal scum, I'm sure of it.

I agree, I think it should be used every day. Also, Timeater's role pm claim strongly implies that the majority of townies are flesh. Assuming 3? scum I'd say 2-3 of them would be metal, but I could be wrong. Of course the mycosynth might be a red herring and only 1, or 0 of the actual scum are metal but I don't know how sadistic Natirasha is

I checked page 1, and I am entitled as a replacement to request to extend the deadline by 3 days. Does anyone need it? I thought it'd take me longer than this to catch up but I'm okay now.

I personally would prefer the game moved quickly but not at the expense of everyone actually getting the chance to contribute before the day ends. If an extension is felt necessary by others I would support it.

Seraphim got voted for not being around, then immediately showed up out of thin air. That tells me he's paying attention and choosing not to post.

That is, admittedly a little bit suspicious unless Seraphim can offer an explanation?

[Wall-E]

I think it's likely 2 of 3 of the scum are metal. I have nothing to back this other than "guess the mod" metagaming. CF Riot put my thoughts on that into better words:

As far as I can tell, there are no side effects to throwing a non-metal player into the mycosynth. As such, I think a mycosynth majority should happen every day. There will be at least 1 metal scum, I'm sure of it.

I agree with this assertion wholeheartedly.

[ortolan]

Mycosynth: Wall-E

If you are fleshie as you claim then it's not gonna do any harm. If you're not then why would you lie, unless you're scum? I don't suspect you more than anyone else but in the absence of anyone better to mycosynth at present I'll go with you

Does anyone like my idea of redoing the random vote among only those players who've been contributing? Or do you want to stick with Tuberkulos?

[Wall-E]

I'm down to mycosynth me. It's a waste, but I've been quite vocal, so I can see the appeal of doing so.

[ortolan]

Is it still generally considered that we should try to lynch someone instead of doing the apparent equivalent of a no lynch by say, lynching Timeater?

Odd numbers favour town, don't they? The mafia would presumably get one night kill in tonight and we'd have 11 tomorrow and a better idea of the mechanics of the game. But of course it might still be better to try to lynch someone we think is scum.

[Nicol Bolas]

Unvotes/Serums/Mycosynths are required, people.

Vote Count
Seraphim(2): SpyreX, CF_Riot
Porkens(1): Wall-E
Illumina(1): ortolan

Serum Count
Wall-E(1): Wall-E
Porkens(1): SpyreX
Tuberkulos(3): Timeater, ortolan, TonyMontana

Mycosynth Count
ortolan(1): Wall-E
Timeater(1): SpyreX
SpyreX(1): Timeater
Seraphim(1): Ortolan
Wall-E(2): CF_Riot, ortolan

To lynch/mycosynth/serum: Seven
Deadline: Monday, November 10, 2008

[Wall-E]

ortolan: What do you think is the best of the three plans outlined so far? Who do you think should get the serum?

Your post seemed to lack content. Please respond.

[CF Riot]

I understand how you see those as contradictory so I'm not going tot touch on that. I think what I have proposed is the best option. Moving on.

The whole idea of random voting is that there is nothing systematic in it that the scum can try to manipulate. Your very idea of giving it to the townie judged the "best" seems to be something that could easily fit into the category of something the scum could manipulate.

The reason we don't want scum to have control over things is because it gives them power. But at the same time, I don't think it's a good idea to give up all of our own control as town just to make both sides equally helpless. I value the town's ability to reason more than sheer odds left to randomness.

That's why I proposed random voting within certain constraints i.e. only among those who have contributed a certain amount.

Now you're just agreeing with me but trying to hold on to some degree of randomness. What stipulates "active enough"? It's all going back to just judging who deserves it the most. Not only that, but if you put

this

idea out there, it's even easier for scum to benefit by making sure they post just enough to stay above the lurker mark to keep their name in the hat, while inactive/busy/lame townies drop out and raise the scums odds. And this even lets them stay quiet about who they think deserves the serum, which hides their intentions from us, making them harder to read.

Also, I don't see any reason to no-lynch today. Lynches can hit scum, we don't win until all scum are gone. Lynching is the best way to win.

[ortolan]

ortolan: What do you think is the best of the three plans outlined so far? Who do you think should get the serum?

Your post seemed to lack content. Please respond.

To get it clear: what we're choosing between is the random vote, which would entail giving it to Tuberkulos as we already decided that, the partially random vote (my idea), or the entirely-merit-based approach (which would basically just be voting as normal)? To answer your question I'm still not sure which is the best.

[quote="CF Riot]Now you're just agreeing with me but trying to hold on to some degree of randomness. What stipulates "active enough"? It's all going back to just judging who deserves it the most. Not only that, but if you put

this

idea out there, it's even easier for scum to benefit by making sure they post just enough to stay above the lurker mark to keep their name in the hat, while inactive/busy/lame townies drop out and raise the scums odds. And this even lets them stay quiet about who they think deserves the serum, which hides their intentions from us, making them harder to read. [/quote]

Well that's kind of what I wanted, a bit of randomness and some selection, that seems certainly no worse than the other options? What I intended was that only the people that have contributed up until now would get included. So I was thinking along the lines of CF Riot, Wall-E, Timeater, SpyreX, me, TonyMontana, Porkens, geraintm (from looking back over the thread). The more I think about it thought this system is just going to cause endless debate over who should be included, so perhaps we shouldn't go with it.

Which leaves us with, our original vote of random on Tuberkulos, or a merit-vote. I'm happy to go with either, especially as I really don't think it's fair that Tuberkulos hasn't contributed _anything_ yet, yet is looking to be the recipient of the serum.

So yer, perhaps the merit vote is the best idea after all.