667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Another week of absense from JDodge is the last straw for me. I'd say theres at least a 90% chance he's scum. Plus it's better to have an active player alive (i.e. elderad).

Unvote, Vote: JDodge

[charter]

PRODS PLEASE

[JDodge]

Back to work!

#1. Eldarad, you should probably stop being so self-preservative. I was

doubting

that you were scum, yet now it seems you're trying hard to get any lynch that

isn't you

.

#2. Mach-Maf: Meta me. Thanks.

#3. Case coming within the next couple of hours, later today if I fall asleep drudging through the horrific monotony that is this game.

[JDodge]

i don't like the idea that agreeing or disagreeing are scum-tells. when someone makes an argument, you either have to agree with it or disagree with it. whether or not you express your opinion is up to you though.

Point #1. Note the subtext of this post. He basically outright says you have to either agree or disagree with everything (which is only beneficial if you have a single goal in mind. Townspeople do not have this single goal, as their win condition is an abstract; the scum

know

who they have to get rid of, etc.).

Point #2. He says that while you either have to agree or disagree with every statement, you don't have to

express your opinion

. Agreement is a form of expression of opinion. Are you saying that you can agree or disagree, but it doesn't have to reflect what you actually think?

It's an odd line of logic, yes. And definitely the weakest point of my case. But I want further discussion on it nonetheless. But this also ties into my next point:

At this moment, but I'll read it through soon again, I'll support Jdodge.

unvote Vote:KrisReizer

this is exactly what we had the half a page argument about, if you wanna agree that fine, as long as you explain yourself in the process, this just looks like buddying up.

Point #3. Outright hypocrisy. How did nobody notice this?

also aviny you seem to be trying to hard to make a case against me. im sure you can pick and choose anyone in the game and find posts that don't fit right or something, so what makes mine right there so bad? i was just explaining my thoughts on the topic at the time, which i would consider helpful. so for right now my vote just went from random to serious. that was some good guessing on page 1 wasn't it!

Point #4. An attempt at disarming an argument against him by saying "everyone looks scummy sometimes, so why is this any different". Sorry. That's not how it works in reality.

Because I'm an idiot, and still learning how forum mafia is different from face-to-face mafia.

i don't like this comment, if any type of mafia you should never ask for a claim that quickly.

Point #5. Argument based on personal opinion. This is a difference in playstyle matter. It has no bearing on alignment either way. NEXT!

the main thing that aggrevates me is that claiming is good, when done right. but it should only be used as a last resort. i attack so many people for being like its L-2 you better claim, or L-1 you better claim, when you haven't even provided your case and given him a chance to defend themselves. a claim should only come when you are nearly positive that they are scum and nothing they say can convince you otherwise, except a claim, which wasn't the case with moospiker here. hence, one of the reasons i think he is scummy.

Point #5b. Argument based on personal opinion with personal experience cited, sans results of said personal experience. Unfortunately this disqualifies Point #5 of my case, but it does leave us with an interesting bit of information.

QFT. while i haven't finished many games to be able to see peoples roles and see if this applies to them, i know from personal experience that its true. i always get so aggravated when im town and can't convince them that i am town.

Counter-point #1. This does sound very sincere, and it does seem like it would be an unlikely thing to say as scum.

why do you think moo is lynch worthy

Point #6a. This will come in handy when we get to point #6b. Remember it.

And that is the end of the analysis of afatchic's posts throughout the month of September. October upcoming.

[JDodge]

Can we get a lynch on Moospiker?

can you give your full case on her, im wanting to wait for the replacement before i cast a vote, its always good to get a new perspective on things.

The role fishing. The not doing anything productive this whole game.

The being scum

.

well that seems like a decent reason right there. haha
but yeah this game has come to a near halt, so im going to spice things up a bit.

Vote: Moospiker.

Point #6b. Just

3 days

before this he did not see the case on Moo. Suddenly, without explanation at all, he votes Moo. For shame.

however i don't think it is a good idea for people that have played the whole game and have made there opinions pretty clear to make a detailed list of what they think of everyone at an L-1 position, or close. it just gives the scum way too much info to go on. say everyone puts one person on the bottom of each list, then the scum know that person will be hard to get lynched and should NK them to get them out of the way. and even though its likely that the doc would also decide to protect that person, there are no garuntees that we have a doc since only about half the possible roles have a doc in them.

Point #3b. Let's rewind for just a second.

i guess the way i said it was what made it sound bad. i have been suspicious of moospiker most of the game, just not enough to put him at L-1 and give someone an easy hammer. longer days are better for the town, so i normally play cautious instead of rushing my actions. i just thought that on the first page he seemed town since he seemed to be trying to help, however once he was under pressure i haven't liked how he has acted at all. and it isn't the way you are making it out to sound that i saw an easy lynch target and jumped on it, i have been there the whole time.

Let's go through the logical steps.

- Longer days are good for the town
- Longer days lead to more info in the open.
- Info is bad for the town.
- Ergo, hypocrisy or malice?

Vi really don't see how you can use that as a vase against me since for the better part of the game it has been me, charter, and moo the only ones participating. The case was already up about moo, i haven't really seen much wrong with charters play, which is why i haven't put many cases together. if you want to vote me at least make a decent reason i might can defend against.

Point #7. I don't find anything wrong with this post, but this typo made me laugh. Heh. Vase.

That's all I've got. Sorry for the delays, school and work have been murder. I've had time to update The Mole every now and then, mod my own game, and ease into my other game, and not much else.

Now, commence with the dissection, dissention and of course bitching.

[eldarad]

#1. Eldarad, you should probably stop being so self-preservative. I was doubting that you were scum, yet now it seems you're trying hard to get any lynch that isn't you.

Hmm. My favourites for lynching Today are either charter or afatchic, since they both look scummy and I believe the linkage is so blatant that the possibility of them both being scum is very slim. Hence lynching one would give me a good steer on the alignment of the other.

Given MM's stark choice of two potential lynches, where one of the potentials is me, I would pick *anyone who isn't me*, so yes, you're correct there.
I'm not trying to get you lynched though.

[charter]

Wait, why am I blatently linked to afatchic? I don't get that. I also don't like eld's lynch one so we know the other's alignment. Hey, let's lynch charter today. Charter flips town. Hey, that must mean afatchic is scum! Lynch afatchic, possibly lose.

Setting up lynches like that eld? At least try and be more subtle about it.

[Vi]

Times like these make me wish I had unlimited daykill abilities.

Before I say something I may regret, eldarad. Could you elaborate on--

My favourites for lynching Today are either charter or afatchic, since they both look scummy and I believe the linkage is so blatant that the possibility of them both being scum is very slim. Hence lynching one would give me a good steer on the alignment of the other.

@M-M: Are you satisfied with JDodge's input?

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

#2. Mach-Maf: Meta me. Thanks.

No thanks. I don't consider meta to be a valid defense. I evaluate this game only.

@M-M: Are you satisfied with JDodge's input?

Although finally seeing some content from JDodge is nice, those couple posts aren't changing my views about him.
I find it hard to believe that if JDodge was town, it would take him 4 weeks to elaborate on his initial vote of afatchic when he originally said "If you can't see why afatchic is scum, you need to get glasses or contact lenses or laser eye surgery or euthanized".
On the contrary, I can see easily JDScum placing his vote on afatchic on that broad statement above, and then if needed, find whatever evidence against afatchic later.

[JDodge]

#2. Mach-Maf: Meta me. Thanks.

No thanks. I don't consider meta to be a valid defense. I evaluate this game only.

I am going to take that as a reason to mostly ignore your opinions, because if you can't see the value of meta in a game, you are more worthless than someone who never posts.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

#2. Mach-Maf: Meta me. Thanks.

No thanks. I don't consider meta to be a valid defense. I evaluate this game only.

I am going to take that as a reason to mostly ignore your opinions, because if you can't see the value of meta in a game, you are more worthless than someone who never posts.

Go take a look at Mini 574 Portal Mafia. In that game I went after Flameaxe when he and many others used his meta as defense. I had none of it and eventually pushed enough to get FlameaxeScum lynched that contributed to a town win. That's just one example of where my stance was actually quite useful.

[JDodge]

#2. Mach-Maf: Meta me. Thanks.

No thanks. I don't consider meta to be a valid defense. I evaluate this game only.

I am going to take that as a reason to mostly ignore your opinions, because if you can't see the value of meta in a game, you are more worthless than someone who never posts.

Go take a look at Mini 574 Portal Mafia. In that game I went after Flameaxe when he and many others used his meta as defense. I had none of it and eventually pushed enough to get FlameaxeScum lynched that contributed to a town win. That's just one example of where my stance was actually quite useful.

Congratulations. It worked. Once.

One example does not prove you at all correct, it proves that you got lucky once.

[JDodge]

Also, you expect me to go back and look at past games where your stance worked but you refuse to look at past games yourself?

Hypocrite.

[charter]

Also, you expect me to go back and look at past games where your stance worked but you refuse to look at past games yourself?

Hypocrite.

I saw this too.

[JDodge]

And another thing. I looked at the game you mentioned, and you DID lynch Flameaxe for reasons that are standard to his meta. Granted, you were correct with the lynch, but the pretense was shit.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Congratulations. It worked. Once.

One example does not prove you at all correct, it proves that you got lucky once.

This is not a case of me getting lucky, but rather a case that confirms the underlying reasons why I think the meta-defense is invalid:

If Player X has a well-established meta M when X is town, there will always be incentive for X to also use meta M as scum to trick everyone and increases X's chances of winning as scum. Thus, meta M is not a valid reason that supports X being town.

Also, you expect me to go back and look at past games where your stance worked but you refuse to look at past games yourself?

Hypocrite.

See above. There's a distinction between using past games to determine town/scum and using past games to counter your point "if you can't see the value of meta in a game, you are more worthless than someone who never posts."

[JDodge]

Congratulations. It worked. Once.

One example does not prove you at all correct, it proves that you got lucky once.

This is not a case of me getting lucky, but rather a case that confirms the underlying reasons why I think the meta-defense is invalid:

If Player X has a well-established meta M when X is town, there will always be incentive for X to also use meta M as scum to trick everyone and increases X's chances of winning as scum. Thus, meta M is not a valid reason that supports X being town.

This assumes that people can shut off and/or alter their subconscious at will. If you're only looking at "X ALWAYS DOES Y AS TOWN, HE IS DOING Y NOW, HENCE HE IS TOWN", then yes, I might agree. But when you're looking at what I like to call

long-term psychological indicators

regarding what people's mindstate is like when playing as scum v. playing town, then meta is completely and utterly invaluable.

Also, you expect me to go back and look at past games where your stance worked but you refuse to look at past games yourself?

Hypocrite.

See above. There's a distinction between using past games to determine town/scum and using past games to counter your point "if you can't see the value of meta in a game, you are more worthless than someone who never posts."

Yes. One benefits your laziness, and the other benefits your not coming up with a sufficient counter-point.

[charter]

PRODS PLEASE!

Guys, this day is dragging on horribly. I'm not saying rush, but lets try and work something out. I will consider voting afatchic if that will help move things along.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

@JDodge: Back to this actual game instead of our debate on meta theory, are you saying that when in a town "mindstate", you have a meta of ignoring a game while being very active in other threads?

---

I have noticed quite a reliable trend in which afatchic promises to reread to catch up and never delivers the promise. In earlier cases he used real-life constraints as an excuse, but in the most recent case he has posted over 30 tmes in other threads while ignoring this one, so clearly afatchic doesn't consider contributing to this game as a priority, which is very antitown. I wouldn't mind lynching afatchic now.

Big FoS: afatchic

[afatchic]

@JDodge: Back to this actual game instead of our debate on meta theory, are you saying that when in a town "mindstate", you have a meta of ignoring a game while being very active in other threads?

---

I have noticed quite a reliable trend in which afatchic promises to reread to catch up and never delivers the promise. In earlier cases he used real-life constraints as an excuse, but in the most recent case he has posted over 30 tmes in other threads while ignoring this one, so clearly afatchic doesn't consider contributing to this game as a priority, which is very antitown. I wouldn't mind lynching afatchic now.

Big FoS: afatchic

quoting to show i read it and im here. if you would like ot look a little closer at all of them you can also see that i fell behind in every one of those games, and that i am just catching up in the one at a time. with all that said, this one is coming tonight.

[JDodge]

@JDodge: Back to this actual game instead of our debate on meta theory, are you saying that when in a town "mindstate", you have a meta of ignoring a game while being very active in other threads?

---

I have noticed quite a reliable trend in which afatchic promises to reread to catch up and never delivers the promise. In earlier cases he used real-life constraints as an excuse, but in the most recent case he has posted over 30 tmes in other threads while ignoring this one, so clearly afatchic doesn't consider contributing to this game as a priority, which is very antitown. I wouldn't mind lynching afatchic now.

Big FoS: afatchic

Note that said other threads are not mafia games - I have mafia playing moods and non-mafia playing moods. I feel that contributing when not in the former leads to terrible results and a continuation of the latter.

[Simenon]

PRODS PLEASE!

On who, exactly? Everybody here has posted within 2 days, or is about to be replaced (Moospiker).

[Simenon]

PRODS PLEASE!

On whom, exactly? Everybody here has posted within 2 days, or is about to be replaced (Moospiker).

[charter]

Moospiker was the one I wanted. Didn't know he was getting replaced, me bad.

[Vi]

@JDodge: Back to this actual game instead of our debate on meta theory, are you saying that when in a town "mindstate", you have a meta of ignoring a game while being very active in other threads?

---

I have noticed quite a reliable trend in which afatchic promises to reread to catch up and never delivers the promise. In earlier cases he used real-life constraints as an excuse, but in the most recent case he has posted over 30 tmes in other threads while ignoring this one, so clearly afatchic doesn't consider contributing to this game as a priority, which is very antitown. I wouldn't mind lynching afatchic now.

Big FoS: afatchic

quoting to show i read it and im here. if you would like ot look a little closer at all of them you can also see that i fell behind in every one of those games, and that i am just catching up in the one at a time. with all that said, this one is coming tonight.

'Waiting on you.