UK Eastermeet 2022 Invitational (Game over!)

[Fenchurch]

And I still land on the fact that I can't see Nexus and Wenna together as a pairing.

Why not?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Please explain why over the course of this day, when you have been at three votes twice, you haven't been executed. Scum could easily have carried on the previous days case if they wanted to, it wouldn't have been a hard switch and wouldn't have looked like a quick execution to me.

I guess this is a different question, sorry. I think a lot of scum don't actually feel that comfortable changing their minds (which is why I thought Postie was town even before the Jailkeeper claim); I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a scum!Primate or scum!Fenchurch would not turn on me. Especially when I hadn't claimed at the start of the Day and scum is reasonably likely to be in a good enough position to not need risk everything on this Day (a Nexus-Wenna-??? probably is more motivated to win Today).

[Wenna]

I don't actually get how you can vote for Primate earlier in the day for lurking and somehow have issue with the theory that Nexus and Wenna, both of whom I would describe as having interacted less with the game than Primate.

Yes I was AFK for the first day, but I feel like I have been contributing a lot since then, trying to offer reads and ideas and find baddies. Primate and I have about the same number of posts. I feel like you're clinging onto something that doesn't hold true anymore.

[cpol]

And I still land on the fact that I can't see Nexus and Wenna together as a pairing.

Why not?

Because I don't get any particularly strong scum vibes from either of them? Nexus in particular has been one of my top town reads for at least the last two in game days.

[cpol]

Do you believe there are two or three scum, @CES?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I am not overly enamoured by Primates response to being called out - what I would call overly defensive/aggressive (similar to Patrick did to me during WereLeg one game when he was scum), plus for someone not 'invested' in the game, they sure responded quickly to being voted for. Nexus may have been luring a lot more, but several of their comments have resonated with what I was feeling at the time as well. I'll agree Wenna is a null for me at the moment, but could fall into that 1 voter category. And I still land on the fact that I can't see Nexus and Wenna together as a pairing.

My experience with town vs scum lurkers is that scum lurkers generally put more effort into creating those sort of moments, posting little snippets that make you think "oh yeah" even though they're not actually hard to fake. And anyone could've predicted that Andy was going to lurk; maybe you haven't played much forum mafia with Andy but he's not scum who's secretly 'invested' in the game.

I don't actually get how you can vote for Primate earlier in the day for lurking and somehow have issue with the theory that Nexus and Wenna, both of whom I would describe as having interacted less with the game than Primate.

Yes I was AFK for the first day, but I feel like I have been contributing a lot since then, trying to offer reads and ideas and find baddies. Primate and I have about the same number of posts. I feel like you're clinging onto something that doesn't hold true anymore.

It's Day 3 and you're voting for me mainly because I have vibes of being cunning, as far as I can tell.

P-edit: 3 scum.

[Fenchurch]

Because I don't get any particularly strong scum vibes from either of them? Nexus in particular has been one of my top town reads for at least the last two in game days.

Huh... I guess we have totally different takes then. For Nexus, now and then he makes a comment that is relevant to the game but overall he doesn't describe any thought processes (like the switch from 'CES claim is good' to 'CES claim is probably scum') and he ignores more than half of the questions I ask him. I see none of his play as something he wouldn't do as scum.

[cpol]

@Posite

Please can I have a sense check from you on what I am thinking?

[Wenna]

@Posite

Please can I have a sense check from you on what I am thinking?

I'm not Postie, but everything you've said makes sense to me.

I have agreed with all of Poro's posts too (possibly too much). Primate makes a lot of sense as well. (Other than seeing me as not town, but even then I can see why).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I feel like the main reason I'm on the chopping block Today is just made-up narratives about the Mennowagon. It sure is hard to imagine what sort of motive scum might have had to help create this type of situation.

[ChannelDelibird]

Vote Count

Cogito Ergo Sum (3)

: Postie, Nexus, Wenna

Nexus (1):

Fenchurch

Not voting (4):

Cogito Ergo Sum, cpol, Porochaz, Primate

With 8 players alive, 5 votes are required for an execution.

Time until deadline: (expired on 2022-05-16 09:00:00)

[Porochaz]

I've been viewing, I've just not been posting.

[Porochaz]

Also not voting.

Yet.

But Im not looking at voting CES.

[Porochaz]

Based on play I have Cpol, Postie and CES as town. Nexus and Poro and Primate as null. Wenna as scummy. But it'd be rare if all the players I think are scummy are actually scum, and mechanics makes me feel that it might be one of Cpol or CES from the 'top'.

I'm going to read through again because there are things I want to talk about but I havent really had the time. First thing on the read through since my last proper post, is - These people are town, these people are null, Wenna is scummy, but the people I think are town are also probably scum.

I mean, that is some read list.

[Porochaz]

@Poro, can you explain what the thought behind that last bit was?

I might be getting my timeline in my head wrong, but I remember thinking it felt town v scum, and Fen did that town thing. At the time I had felt postie was wildly speculating about roles, (and as an aside I still think there may be possibilities other than potato vendor, but given the nature of the game, I guess there probably is a scum vendor, but as soon as I see the word potato I tune out) and at that early stage in the game, it felt fishy and distracted from finding scum. That was why I fos'ed Postie over Fen.

That said, I have not like Fen's posting at all today, and Postie hasn't bothered me all that much, so I don't know.

I don't want to be disrespectful to the mod either, so I have been poorly dancing around it. Because I am grateful CDB ran a game for us, but the consul mechanic for me is something I will never enjoy. It's day 1, we have no reads, and effectively I have no vote either. So my job is effectively to sit there like a bowl of jelly and not do anything or shout ineffectually until we get a quickhammer. Which is what happened. The argument could be made that the potato mechanic puts us back into the game, but given that the focus then became the mechanic itself and not the usage of it, it stopped being interesting. So, Im not sure, I didn't know what to post and from a meta standpoint, if I can't latch onto something then I find it difficult to post, and that was unfortunately where I am with this game, and with work being well... work the effort required for me to get into the game would have been too much. (Hence posting at 12.30am tonight)

At this point, we are probably in MYEO, Im wondering if scum go against each other, in the way that CES is suggesting in 460. At this point, if CES is a miselim then wouldn't they just go for it?

Cpol's 466, seems a lot of effort to vote for CES. That could have been summarised to a couple of lines. I don't mean to be rude, but it feels more justifying it than explanatory.

Im not sure who I want to vote here. CES isn't really at the top of the list, tbh.

CDB, are there six candles burning or should there just be 5?

Im not sure what the massclaim was going to achieve to be honest. I mean I was happy to, because I didn't see a point in not doing it, but to try and gain useful alignment information when scum are more likely than not to have gotten fakeclaims, yeah, that feels bad man.

Cpol, I think feels the safest to me currently, there is the whole business of him getting a potato. But I get the feeling that is more of a distraction. The people voting him were Fen, Nexus and Postie (and Klick), except most of those are on day 1 so... bleh. I don't understand why scum would give cpol a potato, if I now just go into the vending chat. I guess giving a potato to him and presuming he's going to be the next days misexecution is a play and probably a better one than a second execution on night 1. Although is it? Because although it hasn't gone well for town, that plan didn't go as planned, if that was the plan. Plan plan plan. If cpol is town, I really don't see why they wouldn't just kill him. If cpol is scum, then there is a very clear reason to give him a potato, but would he really give away his potato if so? Even with the power role? So much WIFOM. So assuming he is town, which I currently am, then who out of the remaining players would consider that a better play? Considering how people play I guess I would go FenCES and Primate if I thought he was semi invested.

Wenna, I think I've read Wenna wrong every single time, I find her town. I can completely understand, if myself, nexus and primate are struggling to maintain involvement then I don't blame Wenna in her first game of forum mafia to struggle as well. The potato puns were appreciated though.

Primate - I think there is a little hypocrisy there in terms of our respective activity rates. But I think in the case you made against me there was some decent points. I think 271 is not my towniest moment. Im not really reading you as scum, beyond feeling you'd maybe be a bit more in this game if you were town, but Im not sure that's fair. Post 458, if it was non vanilla roles, then there would be a lot of us lying right now, Im wondering if it's alive town roles? Which is why I am asking the question above. I do question your initial nom, but all things considered it feels like a minor thing.

Nexus -

fuck sake why can't we play mountainous.

I am the Whodunnit yarn wall, VT. Hence my apathy. It's boring being VT in a theme game.

I get why you said what you said in your first post. But I think it's worth noting. Post 297 hits me in all the wrong ways. There is the fact I know you hate playing scum. And there is nothing worthy there. Out of everyone, you have the least amount of content, at a certain point, I have to ask, as town, when we are clearly losing, is there not some nugget of info you'd share?

Postie (and by extension Fen, so I don't repeat myself) - I guess I didn't really talk to you much throughout the meet, sorry about that. I bring it up now, because I actually have very little idea about how you play and well, the game that we did have together I can see similarities... Reading back on your theory about Fen and cpol, given the facts that we know now, Im seeing more weight behind your theory. I am wondering despite my assertions earlier in this post that cpol is town, that scum cpol would pass the potato to scumfenchurch knowing that it would likely be passed back but that she would be able to provide one if something went wrong. Which when town menno hammered, it did go wrong.

Is this still a possibility in your mind? Or have I missed something?

Fen - There is the above, but beyond that rereading now, there are things I don't like. The cpol potato being irrational and combined vote, then the celebration that he is alive day 2, the lack of a read on CES - I get he's difficult to read, I have not developed that skill, but to not have a read on CES so late into the game, that doesn't feel like you. Reading through the iso, it looks like you are doing a hell of a lot of work to divert any votes from CES or cpol (post day 1, when your vote didn't count) to other wagons. You are SUPER focused on menno, cpol becomes conftown for some reason that Im not quite getting and your reads are really not consistent and now you seem to be looking for a lurker to execute. That paragraph of your I quoted at the top of the page, feels really bad now looking at it. You've even given yourself an out in that line.

Back to cpol - there is very little on Fenchurch in the posts. There is a CES case, but ultimately there is a relatively quickhammer on Menno. The interaction between 466 and 470 feels disingenuous. But to be honest here, Im picking holes.

CES - So as it's become apparent now, I am seeing Fen - cpol - CES scum team, there are things that don't quite fit that, the claim for one. Im not sure how a consulmaker fits day 1 if CES were scum, but then I could equally see CES target two townies and it delves into a crate load of WIFOM, that probably isn't worth diving into. Im not convinced CES wouldnt have a read on Fen late game either. I probably need to look up the CES case, unless its cpol's one.

So where am I at, I think Fen is now my top scum read, I think there is a good chance now that cpol is her partner, yet I find very little of what he has done individually to be very scummy, and I think CES could be an easy third, but the cpol case kind of also puts a stop to that. I think it could very well not be CES and be Nexus or Primate? However trying to think about teams, I have Fenchurch in almost all iterations.

vote Fenchurch

For case, see both the Fenchurch section and the Postie section.

Term replacement - CDB

[Porochaz]

So that's a very rambley post, I know and I change my mind multiple times throughout it, so it may have come out more like a stream of consiousness than I meant it to. The important part is below. At this juncture I wouldn't quite feel comfortable voting cpol or ces.

Postie (and by extension Fen, so I don't repeat myself) - I guess I didn't really talk to you much throughout the meet, sorry about that. I bring it up now, because I actually have very little idea about how you play and well, the game that we did have together I can see similarities... Reading back on your theory about Fen and cpol, given the facts that we know now, Im seeing more weight behind your theory. I am wondering despite my assertions earlier in this post that cpol is town, that scum cpol would pass the potato to scumfenchurch knowing that it would likely be passed back but that she would be able to provide one if something went wrong. Which when town menno hammered, it did go wrong. Is this still a possibility in your mind? Or have I missed something?

Fen - There is the above, but beyond that rereading now, there are things I don't like. The cpol potato being irrational and combined vote, then the celebration that he is alive day 2, the lack of a read on CES - I get he's difficult to read, I have not developed that skill, but to not have a read on CES so late into the game, that doesn't feel like you. Reading through the iso, it looks like you are doing a hell of a lot of work to divert any votes from CES or cpol (post day 1, when your vote didn't count) to other wagons. You are SUPER focused on menno, cpol becomes conftown for some reason that Im not quite getting and your reads are really not consistent and now you seem to be looking for a lurker to execute. That paragraph of yours I quoted at the top of the page, feels really bad now looking at it. You've even given yourself an out in that line.

Term replacement - CDB

[Porochaz]

Aw fuck, Im sorry, I searched the post multiple times, to ensure I didn't use the word and I corrected any mistakes I made and still one got through and then I requoted it. I suck, Im sorry again.

[cpol]

@Poro

- so based off that I see that you you are saying that you think your potential town buddies at this point are indeed Nexus, Wenna and Postie (along with Primate) in your most likely version of the game. So, given that they are all currently voting for CES, and as I stated the town almost universally needs to vote for the same person today, why do you not follow them? What are you actually trying to achieve by voting Fenchurch? You think you are going to convince Nexus, Wenna and Postie to move their vote? If you are town, all you have done is create division at this point.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB, are there six candles burning or should there just be 5?

There are no errors in the opening post of Day 3.

[Porochaz]

@Poro

- so based off that I see that you you are saying that you think your potential town buddies at this point are indeed Nexus, Wenna and Postie (along with Primate) in your most likely version of the game. So, given that they are all currently voting for CES, and as I stated the town almost universally needs to vote for the same person today, why do you not follow them? What are you actually trying to achieve by voting Fenchurch? You think you are going to convince Nexus, Wenna and Postie to move their vote? If you are town, all you have done is create division at this point.

Given that it was 2 am when I finished I hadn't really looked at that, that said I'm not convinced on ces, we have 4? days, I think it's worth exploring

[Porochaz]

Also for the record, given that it's 4 days, it's interesting that you are telling me that I should give up on the fen case and follow the crowd

[cpol]

4 days doesn't fill me with confidence that we're winning this...

Like I said, I'm fairly sure all town need to be aligned to have any chance, and we've burned 6 days now already treading water and going over the same old stuff.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you not think scum might be trying to take advantage of that feeling, cpol?

[cpol]

What are you waiting for right now, CES?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well, my expectation had been that people would chime in and we'd pick one of the obvious suspicious people to execute but it turns out that a) people have trash reads and b) the two obviously suspicious people just dropped votes with no meaningful justification and people are just okay with that for some reason, so now it's on me to save the town. Which will probably fail and I've got things to do, but I'll feel bad if I don't try.

Could you read through Nexus' iso and when you think something feels town, ask yourself "Could marginally competent scum fake this?" and realize the answer is "Actually yes, they could, why am I falling for it?" (it's because lurking just does lower your baseline expectations and it's much easier to create townie impressions if you never have to back it up). That'd be the easiest way for us to get back into this game, I feel and otherwise I'll probably feel forced to post some deep breakdown of why Wenna's behaviour is scummy that no one will appreciate but will make me feel better after the game.