UK Eastermeet 2022 Invitational (Game over!)

[cpol]

Because I'd stated that I was going to hammer Menno, and Klick was the first person to unvote to stop that happening. The Menno push wasn't even getting derailed at this point. Why would scum!Klick ever do that?

And their thoughts after this point were extremely forthcoming, I'm not sure how you can say they weren't? They were clearly scum hunting and proactively trying to look outside of Menno. You might have doubted Klick yesterday, but given that Menno flipped town I am really struggling to see how you could come in to this day as a townie being relieved that Klick was taken out of your potential options for looking at Scum in.

[cpol]

That's certainly believable. Fenchurch's play around the start of D2 looks pretty suspicious now that the Menno execution has happened. The certainty around how things played out does look like scum who have come up with a narrative they want to push.

OK, I've re-read and I'm going to rescind my comment here.

I'd reeaaaallly like some actual content from Poro and Primate. Primate managing to miss nearly all of yesterday and then being almost forced into the Menno vote is outrageous. Some good play D1 is doing serious work right now.

I'd be voting CES, but don't want them at E-1 right now. Though I'd go back to my statement from yesterday, I'd like a claim.

[Fenchurch]

Because I'd stated that I was going to hammer Menno, and Klick was the first person to unvote to stop that happening. The Menno push wasn't even getting derailed at this point. Why would scum!Klick ever do that?

Ah okay yeah that makes sense. Although that behaviour is possible as scum because they recognise that the wagon is gonna come under fire after Menno flips town so they make sure not to be on it. But it's true this doesn't really look like that.

I'm still not feeling the case for CES as scum though. It seems like it hinges on a supposed misrepresentation of Menno's behaviour, because Klick saw it as more plausibly town. But Yesterday I

felt

the same as CES; that if they were town they would surely have played it differently, offered clearer explanations, more contrition, refrained from self-voting. And overall the quick-hammer on Bella far outweighed anything else.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I definitely wasn't expecting that nightkill.

I think #359 is pretty unlikely to have been made up (and cpol looked reasonably town Yesterday as well), so I'm satisfied on that front.

Wenna, can you pinpoint what you find scummy about me, Fenchurch or Postie?

And their thoughts after this point were extremely forthcoming, I'm not sure how you can say they weren't? They were clearly scum hunting and proactively trying to look outside of Menno. You might have doubted Klick yesterday, but given that Menno flipped town I am really struggling to see how you could come in to this day as a townie being relieved that Klick was taken out of your potential options for looking at Scum in.

I think you always have to look both at the consequences of people's actions (which is to be clear that a) unsurprisingly they did not actually prevent Menno's execution and b) started a counterwagon on me, who is town) as well as their reasoning because scum naturally can more easily arrange to look good and have the motive to do so (I have literally replaced into a game and been absolutely convinced that a player was scum because they had bussed someone so hard and starting so early it was no longer plausible to me as town play).

Edited for term replacement - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

As for claiming, given that it is Day 3, it's probably prudent. I'm

The People Who Saw Us Dressed As Romans

, a Night 0 Consulmaker.

For the record, my first instinct was Fenchurch+Wenna (I wanted someone lurkery to force them into the spotlight and someone active to complement them) but I figured that did make the obvious consulmaker if scum ever bother to think about it, so I figured instead I'd reward McMenno for their excellent job consulmaking and I wanted to pair with someone who lurks but might also provide some wisdom to counteract Menno's impulsiveness. I felt about guilty and awkward about that at the start.

[cpol]

Certainly a claim that is easy to be countered if it were a lie. Though I am not certain that it necessarily has to be a town role, given that it was only active on night 0. I'm also stretching here, but 'The People Who Saw Us Dressed As Romans' is flavour that isn't directly related to the actual scummers who went to the meet, unlike Menno's and mine. It's an outside group that interacted with us, which could (tenuously) imply scum/3rd party. So all in all enough for me to move away from CES today, but not enough to state that this is a safe town claim.

I still don't agree on the Klick point of view, but will have to agree to disagree at this point.

VOTE: Porochaz

[Wenna]

UNVOTE: CES

Agree with others: I'd like to hear a lot more from Poro/Primate/Nexus before the day ends

I'd currently vote for Fenchurch, CES or possibly Postie or cpol, in that order

[Wenna]

Wenna, can you pinpoint what you find scummy about me, Fenchurch or Postie?

If I was to attempt it with little excogitation;

Individually: cunning, twisting and flip-flopping, respectively.
Overall: odd little teaming up/facing off between the three of you.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that it is because you've been the most active (alongside cpol) and I am inexperienced.

[Postie]

Claim seems NAI to me, same for the choice of consuls
Though if either Primate or CES flips scum that maybe raises the likelihood the other one is slightly? Idk

I definitely wasn't expecting that nightkill.

Why? Were you scumreading Klick?

So all in all enough for me to move away from CES today, but not enough to state that this is a safe town claim.

???
As far as I can tell you just called everything NAI - where's the "enough" for moving away part?

[Postie]

I'm also stretching here, but 'The People Who Saw Us Dressed As Romans' is flavour that isn't directly related to the actual scummers who went to the meet, unlike Menno's and mine. It's an outside group that interacted with us, which could (tenuously) imply scum/3rd party.

I would expect scum to have mod provided fakeclaims in a game like this, so seems like a pointless line of enquiry.
Actually, just to be thorough: does anyone who played in previous invitationals know if fakeclaims were provided? I tried looking through past modded games via CDB's wiki but couldn't find any useful info that way.

[cpol]

As far as I can tell you just called everything NAI - where's the "enough" for moving away part?

We’ve already had a lot of conversations around CES and seen their reaction. The claim for me also leans of the town side (60/40 I’d say). I’d much rather spend the time today putting pressure on the lurkers so they don’t get another day of not posting. Maybe we cycle back later if we’re getting nowhere, but more pressure right now doesn’t give us anything new I’d say. I certainly don't want to speed execute them.

…seems like a pointless line of enquiry.
Actually, just to be thorough: does anyone who played in previous invitationals know if fakeclaims were provided? I tried looking through past modded games via CDB's wiki but couldn't find any useful info that way.

Agreed – not really looking to pursue this any further at this point, just pointing out an observation in case it helps later. If we do ever hit scum, it may be an interesting cross reference however. Though your question is valid still.

[Porochaz]

I think this is a dangerous way of thinking, Postie. You’re forcing the game to have the narrative you want it game to have, rather than the one it does.

I think this line describes where Im at with Postie at this point. I also have a strong will to look at Nexus and Wenna, but yeah Im still reading and will have to delve deeper on those named and CES. Klick is an odd nk as I would have been looking strongly at him today

[Porochaz]

For Poro, I had no faith in that they would be catching up on the game

That hurts. For the record I would have.

[Porochaz]

So I guess coming from a place of honesty, I struggle to get into games unless I have something to latch onto. The consuls meant that I had no skin in the game as it were and it completely shut me off from day 1. I get that its a way to get round the random phase and is thematically relevant, I think. But for me, it felt like I had become a player in someone else's game and Im not convinced Im the only one who felt that. I could have told you that we were going to get an accidental quick hammer, or a result which didn't really reflect towns point of view. Then the potato talk, which I have viewed as vaguely anti-town anyway, I don't think "giving the town extra executions" is actually all that useful because it's not "giving the town" it's "giving the game" and we've almost all been in enough games of forum mafia to know that unless something unusual happens day 1 is a bit of a crapshoot. But I get cpol's reactions to it and why he did what he did, and I get the people who think differently to I. (although I'll still complain about it) However I think overly speculating on what gave cpol a potato night 1 is scummy and given the nature of how we have talked about it, I don't think it's alignment indicative, even if we did get a claim.

In terms of my reads, since the Fen/Postie discussion Fen did something that made me go "oh, she is definitely town" and whilst I haven't based my reads completely on that it has influenced things somewhat. For instance, my Postie read, which has been based on the potato speculation and as cpol said in post 321 creating a narrative where there isn't one. That'll be something I dig into when Im not trying to organise a D&D game with people.

As for Nexus, I actually feel sorry for him playing in a game where a large amount of the references will go over his head, and actually some of the mechanics to. That doesn't excuse the minimal content from him, though. As for Wenna, she had similar thoughts to me early on, so I wrote it off as slightly town and just left it, so that's a thing I need to clarify. CES, I don't see the case, I read through Chris's case and was very meh on it. Chris I think is probably fine. That leaves Primate who I'd forgotten about and looking through his iso I guess I have the same feelings as I do with Nexus. Except there has been some attempt at posting, it's just very surface level and not very probing.

I don't know, writing it all down makes me feel that Postie isn't actually the correct way to look today. (I'll still look, I just don't know if it's the priority) There is something really off about their play, but with 2 people who's interactions have been surface level or minimal, and then Wenna, who for the first half of the game did not want to talk about potatoes, but didn't talk about anything else and then Im not really sure what to think about what her reads are for today.

Anyway that's a mess of a post that talks a lot but says little.

[Nexus]

I mean, the references are the references. Who gives a fuck about the flavour?

[Porochaz]

Ok then given that was my defence of you, why shouldn't I vote you?

[Nexus]

because i'm not scum, I suppose.

[Fenchurch]

And yet, all signs point to the contrary...

[Fenchurch]

I'm just kidding, I actually think you have this kind of trolling play style as town and scum. But you know... process of elimination...

For the record, my first instinct was Fenchurch+Wenna . . . but I figured that did make the obvious consulmaker if scum ever bother to think about it

Did you also consider that I sometimes find your play-style very suspicious, and might be inclined to execute you as Consul?

What is the reason that you wanted to avoid scum figuring you out as the Consulmaker, given that your role is only active N0, and doesn't confirm your alignment as town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I didn't think about your antipathy towards my playstyle consciously and if pressed now, I also don't think I would expect it to be so strong that you execute me Day 1.

Re: avoiding scum knowing I was the Consulmaker, you've basically made my point as far as I'm concerned. It's like claiming vt Day 1 - completely unacceptable behaviour.

If I was to attempt it with little excogitation;

Individually: cunning, twisting and flip-flopping, respectively.
Overall: odd little teaming up/facing off between the three of you.

Can you give any (alignment-relevant) examples of me being cunning? Or Fen twisting words (I assume that's what you mean)? Do you think flip-flopping is inherently scummy (I would say the opposite) or do you think Postie has done so in a suspicious manner?

Nexus, can you tell me why you think I'm scum?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Can you give any (alignment-relevant) examples of me being cunning? Or Fen twisting words (I assume that's what you mean)? Do you think flip-flopping is inherently scummy (I would say the opposite) or do you think Postie has done so in a suspicious manner?

I think I'm actually interested in the second question most of all unless you just mean twisting in the same sense as flip-flopping in which case priority reverts to the first question.

[Nexus]

It's a nice claim, to be fair.

unvote

[Wenna]

Can you give any (alignment-relevant) examples of me being cunning? Or Fen twisting words (I assume that's what you mean)? Do you think flip-flopping is inherently scummy (I would say the opposite) or do you think Postie has done so in a suspicious manner?

Alignment-relevant? Almost certainly not. It's just a feeling. There was one particular interaction early on that caused the feeling, and it's not been entirely shut down since.

By twisting I meant more twisting narrative. It's normal to go from A to C via B. Opinions change, narratives shift. It's usually a group dynamic. If another player is at B you can persuade them to C, in a normal declaring views sort of way. But you can also present as A or B going through to C, when you're already at C, in an attempt to bring the Bs with you. It seems premeditated. What a mess. I will try again.

Sometimes you can present a view as your own to persuade others, when really it's what you think you need to say at that moment to change the group narrative, not your view, organically.

This is possibly what I meant by "cunning" too.

I don't think town would need this play as much, being as they can just speak organically (though I don't know if this is sensible - it appears that I claimed too early for example) (?)

Postie has gone from A to C, rapidly. Which is fine. Except the pace of this has been sporadic. Much diligence and sticking to guns, changing very suddenly. Which could be because of knowing fact X, pretending fact Z, someone disproves Z as a possibility, so having to jump to Y.

I'm almost certain none of this is very helpful.

[Wenna]

I'd currently vote for Fenchurch, CES or possibly Postie or cpol, in that order

[Fenchurch]

Nexus

- what is it that makes you unvote? The claim is believable, but surely Consul-maker fits just as easily as a scum role.

Wenna

- that's a lot of general description without anything specific. CES even said he was most interested in how you see me as 'twisting' but you only specify Postie in your response. What is it that puts me at the top of your suspicions?

Everyone

- I've just been thinking, in a 13 player game is it most likely that we have a 3-person scum team? In which case, if we wrongly execute today then we lose. Should we massclaim - popcorn from CES?