Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[Roden]

i'm 50/50 on malcolm right now because while that claim is sus, he backed down off my slot and pushed you instead and i think that's out of nowhere and unstrategic for scum to do when humaneatingmonkey is sitting right there being the #1 scapegoat.

This is actually a really good point...

Why the hell do we have a Simple Jailkeeper and two investigatives then? I mean yeah most of the PRs claimed on Day 1 but still, I don't think the mod predicted that during set up. Maybe scum have two PRs? A Rolecop and something weak to avoid the Simple check? The Lazy Tracker would help avoid swing here maybe.

Been ruminating on this more and I can’t figure out what two PRs work.

Maybe a named scum? Is that normal?

Anything that can be tracked is left open for guilty on N1.

Bulletproof scum would work but without a vig that’s trolly on a setup already punishing to scum.

So like ??? *confusedi

When Andres claimed Vig I initially thought scum were worried about one because one of their scum buddies were Bulletproof. But yeah, with the current claims that feels a little weak for scum. But, they didn't spend N3 looking for a Vig, so I'm not sure why they fished for one instead of a Doc...

[Malakittens]

Honestly I’m at a loss

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: hem

I want u dead

what changed from when u thought hem's thoughtspew was town?

[Malakittens]

I never thought his spew was ever town

He’s been pudding me off all game

Him n Koba

[Gamma Emerald]

ugh the last page spew by HEM makes me think town

back to the drawing board

UNVOTE: hem

again:

locktown:
JV, GE, Math
town:
Roden, HEM

MT is losing his town status

Need to sort/scum:

IVD, KITTY & MT

VOTE: ivd

idk if this is E-2 or w/e

what was this then

[Malakittens]

GAMMA IDK OK

I’m just really crabby

I wanna go 2 bed

But it’s early

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VC 4.03

With 7 players, it takes 4 to make a decision. Day 4 ends in (expired on 2022-05-08 22:30:00).

VC

MalcolmTucker [1]:

KittyTacky [3500]

KittyTacky [1]:

MalcolmTucker [3355]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

Malakittens [3397]

Malakittens [1]:

humaneatingmonkey [3526]

Not voting [3]:

Gamma Emerald, Roden [3392], MathBlade [3491]

[MathBlade]

So here’s where I am at.

With 7 players alive and 2 scum then we have to hit a scum today or tomorrow.

I think all two scum are in {Malcolm, HEM, Kitty, and a super long shot Mala} so that would be my elim pool.

I don’t think Roden or Gamma are scum.

I am okay with Mala being in elo because she will have to post something and be more active and explain herself.

I am not okay with Malcolm being in elo because more than likely scum have 2 PRs or Malcolm is scum. I don’t see this passing normal review passes this otherwise. This means Malcolm is essentially a VT. I think it’s also extremely unlikely scum kill Malcom if town. So if Malcolm town then Malcolm isn’t likely shot. If Malcolm scum then it’s even more unlikely Malcolm gets shot.

So we’d be looking at a policy elim in elo or just accepting it. This means if we don’t hit scum today Malcolm becomes almost policy, and I really really hate policy at elo.

On the other hand taking into account Malcolm possibly being town then HEM and Kitty both look atrocious.

Mala is more if it’s a Malcolm Kitty scenario which is weird or I am missing something huge as I know she’s going through stuff but she needs to communicate what she is lost on.

I think we should start consolidating in {Malcolm/HEM/Kitty} and say who we don’t want in elo in case they’re town

I think we have a good town block here in me Gamma and Roden and maaaaybe Mala.

So I am suggesting Malcolm I think is that person for me but HEM/Kitty are acceptable too if the both of you want there.

[MathBlade]

The more I think about it with the wagons split today and how it’s going I think we need to know if Malcolm is town or scum. I don’t see how he is town with that claim and those actions but I am extremely scared that if we don’t elim him now I will tunnel him tomorrow. Then if Malcolm is town we lose turning today into an elo. Or we can elim Malcolm who probably flips scum and if not then we have the flexibility in elo to sort properly.

VOTE: Malcolm

Can I get a vibe check here?

[KittyTacky]

You've never shown any evidence you particularly hesitated on Roden, Kitty, beyond that one readslist where you have them as null. "Null" does not imply you're hesitating either - it implies you have no opinion on them at all. You clearly had thoughts on Roden, albeit very limited ones which would be consistent with scum partners.

I was hesitating because I didn't hard defend them, the middle category was null/NEUTRAL, and again you are tunneled on me. Scummmmmm.

[KittyTacky]

But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

You seem to assume that scum would play flawlessly and perfectly logically. Why?! That's a huge assumption to make.

They don't play perfectly, but they also don't just casually reveal themselves and consistently doing nothing but voting for play that seems anti-town is not always a good idea. I have explained this so many times now...you voted and justified your vote on Italiano for identical reasons to your vote on Scorpious but it was wrong.

By that logic, townies wouldn't sit on a PR either because that is what got both of them killed. Both sides can play extremely stupidly. And pushing me for VOTING PEOPLE FOR ANTI-TOWN PLAY is ridiculous.

Scumhunting is apparently scummy if you end up being wrong, even if the mislimmed townies' poor play is what made them look like scum in the first place. And now you're latched onto me like a bulldog for making honest mistakes. Smells like scum opportunism.

Once again you are continually, again and again, ignoring my point. I am not saying that scum never do stupid things. Sometimes they make themselves known to the town in ways that are wrong. My general point has been that scum generally want to blend in and ensure they are not immediately identified. That is the point - if they didn't attempt to do this the game would fundamentally be easy for town.

My issue with your play, from the POV of thinking you are mafia, is that you have continually identified occasional bad townplay and immediately used that to build an entire scum-case, because it allows you to eliminate town from the game and then build a convenient narrative where you were just town who was wrong, even though I was repeatedly pleading with you from D1 onwards to consider that scum don't always make themselves obvious and that sometimes a bit more thought is needed. If you are scum this approach is literally what you are doing now - you can't be mafia because you had seemingly legitimate reasons for voting out town. I am pointing out that this is your approach as mafia in my view - identify any immediate weaknesses in the town and use said weaknesses to push bad faith eliminations while refusing to search for more subtle mafia.

Tell me, then, how I would differentiate bad townplay from scum simply making bad plays? You're basically saying that I should have ignored obviously scummy people, because there's no way scum would be obviously scummy. Ridiculous. Just because they ended up town doesn't make me scum, because they made themselves scummy.

[KittyTacky]

The more I think about it with the wagons split today and how it’s going I think we need to know if Malcolm is town or scum. I don’t see how he is town with that claim and those actions but I am extremely scared that if we don’t elim him now I will tunnel him tomorrow. Then if Malcolm is town we lose turning today into an elo. Or we can elim Malcolm who probably flips scum and if not then we have the flexibility in elo to sort properly.

VOTE: Malcolm

Can I get a vibe check here?

Good idea. Malcolm saw that I am LHF and is trying to miseliminate me, using my wrong pushes as leverage.

[MalcolmTucker]

But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

You seem to assume that scum would play flawlessly and perfectly logically. Why?! That's a huge assumption to make.

They don't play perfectly, but they also don't just casually reveal themselves and consistently doing nothing but voting for play that seems anti-town is not always a good idea. I have explained this so many times now...you voted and justified your vote on Italiano for identical reasons to your vote on Scorpious but it was wrong.

By that logic, townies wouldn't sit on a PR either because that is what got both of them killed. Both sides can play extremely stupidly. And pushing me for VOTING PEOPLE FOR ANTI-TOWN PLAY is ridiculous.

Scumhunting is apparently scummy if you end up being wrong, even if the mislimmed townies' poor play is what made them look like scum in the first place. And now you're latched onto me like a bulldog for making honest mistakes. Smells like scum opportunism.

Once again you are continually, again and again, ignoring my point. I am not saying that scum never do stupid things. Sometimes they make themselves known to the town in ways that are wrong. My general point has been that scum generally want to blend in and ensure they are not immediately identified. That is the point - if they didn't attempt to do this the game would fundamentally be easy for town.

My issue with your play, from the POV of thinking you are mafia, is that you have continually identified occasional bad townplay and immediately used that to build an entire scum-case, because it allows you to eliminate town from the game and then build a convenient narrative where you were just town who was wrong, even though I was repeatedly pleading with you from D1 onwards to consider that scum don't always make themselves obvious and that sometimes a bit more thought is needed. If you are scum this approach is literally what you are doing now - you can't be mafia because you had seemingly legitimate reasons for voting out town. I am pointing out that this is your approach as mafia in my view - identify any immediate weaknesses in the town and use said weaknesses to push bad faith eliminations while refusing to search for more subtle mafia.

Tell me, then, how I would differentiate bad townplay from scum simply making bad plays? You're basically saying that I should have ignored obviously scummy people, because there's no way scum would be obviously scummy. Ridiculous. Just because they ended up town doesn't make me scum, because they made themselves scummy.

This is, again, completely and utterly missing my point. I am not saying you cannot ever push bad townplay. Clearly sometimes scumplay is just bad and easy to identify. My issue here is that you have almost exclusively only pushed bad townplay and refused to consider the idea that any of the scum may be well-hidden or concealed; because that would involve you having to fabricate a dishonest read which may expose you as scum. In isolation it was okay to push Scorpious, or Jackson, or Italiano individually. The fact you have solely suspected these players for what you judged to be bad townplay shows you aren't actually hunting for mafia, you are simply trying to identifying flaws in townplay because it makes you look more honest than you would otherwise.

[MalcolmTucker]

I literally told you why I unvoted but ok

Do you think there's pocketing going on in any direction between me and HEM?

Notably you ignored the vast majority of my post, particularly the hedgy interactions between you and Kitty throughout the game.

You also failed to explain why I would be deep wolfing here considering it would require some pretty big coincidences given - by your own logic - I've also been pursuing several townies throughout the game.

I ignored most of your post because you're seeing things that aren't there. I just don't agree that I've been hedging around Kitty.

I don't see how the elims have been coincidences?

It's not hard to town read townies who are under pressure and clearly have the momentum to be voted out.

But that's my point. There have been times in the game where it looked like HEM was going to be voted out. I nevertheless continued to suspect them. Kitty has not been completely immune to pressure (despite your complete lack of interest in the slot and vice versa), and yet I've pushed there too. Your presumption here depends on the false suggestion Scorpious was the obvious elimination from the start of D1. It's just completely untrue and your read on why I am supposedly deep wolfing is a complete and utter false fabrication.

[MalcolmTucker]

Incredibly - I went through some meta on Scorpious.. and I am shocked to find that their WOLFPLAY has more depth than their villager play somehow.
When comparing:
This wolf game from a game called Internal Affairs:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88949&user_select[]=26244
and this Villager game from a game called Polish Rap:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88570&user_select[]=26244

Also interesting tidbit I found in the wolf chat:
Subject: Infernal Affairs Mafia PT

Oh, yeah. You should know that.

I’ll be scum read by page 4. I just come off as scum all the time. I usually get out of it but. There will be a push on me. I’m just not that good at this, but I like the game so much.

I think FL noted that we both played a game with Scorpious a while back where they approached the game in a similar way to this as town. I'm aware Scorpious seems to roll scum a lot and I sometimes get the impression they're maybe more comfortable in that slot early game than as town - I can conceivably see D1 Scorpious just not having that many decisive thoughts or opinions at the moment and not being particularly active or concerned about the main arguments and interactions as a result.

Provided they're not teammates working together here, FL's defence of Scorpious also felt genuine and townie to me - Koopa was clearly become keen on Scorpious for a while and when FL was under some pressure I think an alternative Scorpious wagon could have potentially been quite workable to take the heat away from them a bit. Obviously that doesn't clarify Scorpious' alignment but struck me as helpful from FL - again, mafia want to keep info hidden and that was some useful clarity that's given Koopa a lot more context on Scorpious in general I'd argue.

I'm not sure mafia particularly pushes Koopa right now, it's unlikely go anywhere and isn't particularly in their interests. But I guess that could conversely be a reason for scum to give it a go...will be intrigued to see whether Scorpious/Jackson keep on it or back down.

My apologies to everyone else for the heated posts on this page - I am intensely frustrated when a player pushes bad mafia theory to push me as wolf when it is simply stuff part of my playstyle, and thus i largely have 0 argument against it.
I think Scorpious is worth an investigative check here if anything just to make sure they are not a wolf trying to hide within this ridiculous theory.

I think Scorpious' push here is pretty lazy but I'm not particularly reading them as mafia for it currently to be honest. Don't see why mafia would push you.

koopashell [2]: Scorpious [457], JacksonVirgo [820]

if there's an all town wagon on town, it's this one.

Agreed, not been keen on Scorpious continually winding up Koopa but I don't think they have much interest in D1 at the moment and they just really don't seem to like how Koopa is approaching the game. Not the best way to decide on a vote but it is what it is for now.

And on both - Koopa clearly not getting eliminated this turn given their role claim, so not a sensible place for mafia to be ditching votes for now.

What are people’s reads on Mathblade?

Didn't particularly like their admission that they'd be happy to eliminate Scorpious due to playstyle and not particularly thinking that they are mafia at all. Considering they have other suspects, felt like a way for them to potentially hedge a wagon on a townie without seeming too suspect for doing so. Also felt like Math's read on me was quite dishonest and completely distorted the truth, but aware they can sometimes quickly jump to conclusions that aren't necessarily correct while town.

For what it's worth while Scorpious is unhappy about meta-reading (and I get that) I'd probably find them a lot more suspicious if I was unaware they can play this way as town. So far their main push has been a poor push on a player who's claimed a role. I just think mafia Scorpious would be putting more thought into things here.

Here is a short sample of my early game posts where I set out quite blatantly and quite clearly that I believed Scorpious was townie on the basis of the way they were approaching the game. This is not an opportunistic TR made to look me appear townie when the wagon went through - I was consistent in this line of thinking for most of D1. There were times when I quizzed Scorpious a bit because I wasn't keen on their Koopa push but like I say, it was fundamentally just not a good way for scum to play. The idea that this is "deep wolfing" is genuinely ludicrous and incredibly silly to even consider.

[KittyTacky]

This is, again, completely and utterly missing my point. I am not saying you cannot ever push bad townplay. Clearly sometimes scumplay is just bad and easy to identify. My issue here is that you have almost exclusively only pushed bad townplay and refused to consider the idea that any of the scum may be well-hidden or concealed; because that would involve you having to fabricate a dishonest read which may expose you as scum. In isolation it was okay to push Scorpious, or Jackson, or Italiano individually. The fact you have solely suspected these players for what you judged to be bad townplay shows you aren't actually hunting for mafia, you are simply trying to identifying flaws in townplay because it makes you look more honest than you would otherwise.

It isn't missing your point, how do you know I wasn't hunting for mafia? Just because I ended up being wrong? Why would I ignore someone I felt was obvious scum and go look for hidden scum when obvious scum (at the time) is right there? You are dishonest and opportunistically pushing me because I made mistakes.

[MalcolmTucker]

No once again you're completely and wilfully misreading my point. I understand players make mistakes. I do not deny that. I have made mistakes, such as pushing for NK15. My point is you have exclusively pushed what you deem to be (obvious) scum despite the fact the majority of mafia games will contain a player who tries to blend in and who avoids making mistakes. Your reads have been conducted solely to appear townie so that whenever town is eliminated you can claim you are being honest. As is the case right now. You claim it was the best approach but you refused to ever consider counterarguments made as to why Scorpious/Italiano could not be scum and only backed off JV after their role claim, something you're refusing to do here because you know it could potentially put your own place in the game at stake if the tables are turned at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Once again - for anyone reading this - I understand and accept that players make errors and mistakes. I have done this myself a lot, sometimes at the end of games leading to a scum win. I take no issue with this. I have made errors this game. My point here is that Kitty has CONTINUALLY used their incorrect reads as a shield and justification for why they must be town, which to me is inherently scummy. They have repeatedly refused to push any slots which may be more concealed mafia because it's been much easier to go for simpler slots who made obvious mistakes, without considering those errors could - as often happens - be coming from town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm sorry Italiano but you shouldn't have pushed NK15 after the claim. That's just sus amogus.

Well I still think there's at least one scum between HEM and Mala.

Look at this post for example. The first thing Kitty said after Italiano's elimination. They were entirely concerned with ensuring their read on Italiano - despite being wrong - could appear justified to the rest of the town. Keep in mind Kitty said this and yet is now pushing for the elimination of and is sitting on a claimed roleplayer. Clearly anti-town play is fine when it's to their own self-benefit.

[Gamma Emerald]

I acknowledge your point but your post is funny because you clearly have a different definition of “roleplayer” to the rest of the world

[MalcolmTucker]

I acknowledge your point but your post is funny because you clearly have a different definition of “roleplayer” to the rest of the world

Fair, I am crap with the terminology in this game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Comma might be recommended going forward...

[MathBlade]

So here’s where I am at.

With 7 players alive and 2 scum then we have to hit a scum today or tomorrow.

I think all two scum are in {Malcolm, HEM, Kitty, and a super long shot Mala} so that would be my elim pool.

I don’t think Roden or Gamma are scum.

I am okay with Mala being in elo because she will have to post something and be more active and explain herself.

I am not okay with Malcolm being in elo because more than likely scum have 2 PRs or Malcolm is scum. I don’t see this passing normal review passes this otherwise. This means Malcolm is essentially a VT. I think it’s also extremely unlikely scum kill Malcom if town. So if Malcolm town then Malcolm isn’t likely shot. If Malcolm scum then it’s even more unlikely Malcolm gets shot.

So we’d be looking at a policy elim in elo or just accepting it. This means if we don’t hit scum today Malcolm becomes almost policy, and I really really hate policy at elo.

On the other hand taking into account Malcolm possibly being town then HEM and Kitty both look atrocious.

Mala is more if it’s a Malcolm Kitty scenario which is weird or I am missing something huge as I know she’s going through stuff but she needs to communicate what she is lost on.

I think we should start consolidating in {Malcolm/HEM/Kitty} and say who we don’t want in elo in case they’re town

I think we have a good town block here in me Gamma and Roden and maaaaybe Mala.

So I am suggesting Malcolm I think is that person for me but HEM/Kitty are acceptable too if the both of you want there.

The more I think about it with the wagons split today and how it’s going I think we need to know if Malcolm is town or scum. I don’t see how he is town with that claim and those actions but I am extremely scared that if we don’t elim him now I will tunnel him tomorrow. Then if Malcolm is town we lose turning today into an elo. Or we can elim Malcolm who probably flips scum and if not then we have the flexibility in elo to sort properly.

VOTE: Malcolm

Can I get a vibe check here?

@Gamma

I think this got lost in Malcolm’s/Kitty’s posting. Can you please respond?

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel like the flipped PRs + malcolm could exist with 1 scum PR if it's notably powerful
I feel like scum is in kitty/malcolm + 1 other (thinking either HEM or mala atp), so I would be okay voting out either
I just hope we can get it right today

[MathBlade]

I feel like the flipped PRs + malcolm could exist with 1 scum PR if it's notably powerful
I feel like scum is in kitty/malcolm + 1 other (thinking either HEM or mala atp), so I would be okay voting out either
I just hope we can get it right today

I am not sure on that first sentence.

Can you give me an example of the PR you’d expect?

Maybe you have an idea where I don’t?