Open 850: Democrabilities (Postgame)

[Alianna]

Sorry Goldie, I know you’re not a fan of wallposts.

[Radical Rat]

I would speculate that both her partner and the N1 target were voting to no-lim.

Why does Titus's alignment affect what the N1 target might do? I get that her and a partner may want to split their opinion so as not to seem aligned, but the N1 target wouldn't be privy to that at all.

[Titus]

Oh cool. A is likely scum too. I'll do either. No way town has me furtive as SS.

VOTE: furtive

[Dunnstral]

Though I think both Titus and furtive are sus, I think it’s unlikely they’re the team.

[furtiveglance]

First of all sorry if I've annoyed anyone so far. Some of my posts were pretty barbed looking back.

Some thoughts on players from their ISOs - I'll watch out for sus behaviour

GoldfishFromtheMoon

: Plays really openly. I'd be surprised if people push Gold this game. I only see town here. There's nothing informed, guarded or calculated about their posting and it shines through. I'm confident in this townread. Off limits, not to be miscondemned.

MalcolmTucker

: Seems pretty reasonable. I can't find fault with anything here - reads are well-reasoned and looking back makes some of the things I said sound a bit stupid. Some scum play like this, but Malcolm's play here is pretty similar to 2088 which I reread recently. Will probably become a universal TR I should think. Cool.

Titus

: Really annoying me if that's OK to say but I think they might be town. Stuff like 140, 173 is so illogical/unwarranted/aggressive/scathing that it doesn't really come from scum. Seems to think everyone is 'throwing' by not using the extra vote. Given that most of town is wary of scum pushing through an extra miscondemn today, wouldn't be talking like this if scum. Reluctant townread, but playstyle is really bizarre and they need to calm down/accept other people's opinions.

FleaTheMagician

: played with Flea who was in a hydra before. Seem pretty similar this game. I agree with them about not using the extra vote. It's possible that they set that up as a dragon for them to slay - 121 for instance. I get the feeling I'll go back and forth on Flea, especially having stronger gut townreads, but they can have town status for today.

Alianna

: I haven't yet played with scum!Alianna. I don't think I am this game either. Tone and style match previous town games. My read here could change depending on flips, it's not as strong as others. But I do get a town vibe. It's the little comments and irreverent humour I've seen before. There's also a parallel between 178 and a comment town!Alianna made in a previous game.

Dunnstral

: Having trouble reading this one. The way they're playing is pretty steady and could easily be replicated as scum. They need to do more to be moved out of null, but I don't want to eliminate them today either.

Cat.Jpeg

: Playing a safe game right now. Trying to look busy. This can come from town, just not usually. Crossreferencing their posting with Mewbie 2092 (our previous game together) makes me really uneasy. They're not playing in the same way at all. Obviously the atmosphere is different this game, but they seem a bit stiff/awkward here. I think it's nervous scum, the other explanation is they haven't settled into the game yet. which would be fair as it's been a bit hostile (myself included). but yeah. personality has completely changed since 2092. scumread.

Radical Rat

: How could you seriously think my joke about quickhammering was a 'scum motivated suggestion'? - 71. I don't like the wording here, especially 'quite possibly'. Tone is confrontational in places - look at 104. Refusal to engage with my ideas about 'info'. Instead sees an easy pointscoring opportunity by making a moot point. Most of their ISO is mech talk - which is kinda understandable in this setup - but not towny - and as for their reads, they voted me based on their own mistake which they admitted, but then are clinging to scumreading me because my reaction was apparently 'weird'. great. I already said their expanded reads look opportunistic and inauthentic. Radical Rat is my preferred elimination. I'm not the type of player to be 100% on every read I make, but I'd be surprised if they flip town.

TLDR is it's Cat and Rat. Together. Both of them. Vote them.

[Cat.Jpeg]

The first two people in your list are the two who didnt have a vote at the end of the ability phase. Also you townread titus for having 'illogical/unwarranted/aggressive/scathing' posts but scumread RadicalRat for what sounds like the same thing. What's the difference between them?

[Cat.Jpeg]

Cat.Jpeg: Playing a safe game right now. Trying to look busy. This can come from town, just not usually. Crossreferencing their posting with Mewbie 2092 (our previous game together) makes me really uneasy. They're not playing in the same way at all. Obviously the atmosphere is different this game, but they seem a bit stiff/awkward here. I think it's nervous scum, the other explanation is they haven't settled into the game yet. which would be fair as it's been a bit hostile (myself included). but yeah. personality has completely changed since 2092. scumread.

You're relying way to much from meta from one game, in which I was friendly neighbour, not just a townie. This also feels like ur scumreading me just so ppl dont think we are a scumteam.

[Dunnstral]

This also feels like ur scumreading me just so ppl dont think we are a scumteam.

How does this make sense if you're town?

[Cat.Jpeg]

Malcolm said if furtive was scum I looked like the most likely partner, theres also a vote for me. I am also one of the only ppl saying I think their town. Thats why i think they want to distance themselves.

[furtiveglance]

The first two people in your list are the two who didnt have a vote at the end of the ability phase. Also you townread titus for having 'illogical/unwarranted/aggressive/scathing' posts but scumread RadicalRat for what sounds like the same thing. What's the difference between them?

The difference is Titus clearly has drive, passion. Radical Rat is going through the motions and taking what they can get. It's night and day

[furtiveglance]

Are you discrediting my top two townreads because other people townread them?

[Cat.Jpeg]

oh no. I phrased that wrong. I meant they were the only ppl not voting (for no elim or for u)

[Cat.Jpeg]

@MalcolmTucker can you do a readlist? slightly hypocritical for me to ask since i havent done one but im working on it.

[MalcolmTucker]

@MalcolmTucker can you do a readlist? slightly hypocritical for me to ask since i havent done one but im working on it.

Not in a position to right this second but can have one down for tonight.

[Flea The Magician]

Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"

For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.

My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.

Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.

Actual readslist would look something like this:

Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

I don't like this readslist. It looks calculated, and not in a good way. It actually looks like an exercise I'd do if I was scum - rank players from hardest to easiest to mislim.

Can tell you don't play with me much. I am FAR from a hard mislim.

Okay so I was thinking about if Furtive was scum, who would be their scumbuddy?
I think it would be pretty crazy if Dunnstral, RadicalRat, or Titus is their scumbuddy.
Malcolm Tucker I really dont think is because of 100 and 102 along with other posts
Flea I dont think is because of 209, now normally I would consider the possibility of them being a scumbuddy but who doesn't want to go down with furtive so they decide its better to add some pressure to distance themselves but not straight up scum read but this post and the reasons used really dont feel like a scum buddy interaction.
Alianna 196, slightly less sure but also dont think this is scumbuddy behaviour.
Lastly there's Goldfish who i feel could be a possible scumbuddy, the RVS vote for Furtive coulda been orchestrated. She also was the only one who put basically no pressure on furtive, I will admit tho, I myself didnt say very much against them.

Ofc this all only matters if furtive is scum, but I dont know if I want to vote them soon and find out so oh well.
I could spend 5 hrs doing this ^ for everyone so if we find one mafia we will instantly know the other (because my assumptions are definitely always right) but im tired and also i dont think doing this will be as clear cut for other people and things might change but i thought this was worth it in case the furtive wagon rolls on into elim phase.
Basically what im saying is if furtive is scum goldfish would prolly be a good vote, if goldfish is town i think furtive is too?

(also just in case i get night killed, which i feel like i wont, i dont think Goldfish would wanna kill me night 1 (and its okay for me to say this because they cant change their minds) though she could probably be persuaded idk)

So the weird thing here for me is you're hunting associatives without a flip or even confidence in pre-flip.

Whats your read on Furtive currently? ELI5.

I think regardless of if we get a furtive flip that post was useful, this game has some interesting possiblities in which we can gain information without having to eliminate. It also helped me wrap my head around this confusing game. Idk what ELI5 means but right now I unapologetically town read furtive, its not a strong town read and if we get some actual reasons they are mafia other that 'being too defensive' (which yes can be scummy but town do it too, especially furtive) then i think their partner is goldfish.

ELI5 is Educate me Like I'm 5.

You're still making associatives for some reason, so then you solve that I can see stands at Goldfish and Furtive.
Why goldfish?

Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"

For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.

My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.

Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.

Actual readslist would look something like this:

Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

I don't like this readslist. It looks calculated, and not in a good way. It actually looks like an exercise I'd do if I was scum - rank players from hardest to easiest to mislim.

You think maybe that might be because scum finds it easiest to mislim players who look scummy?

You could have made this list pre-game, looking at past games. It doesn't reflect at all on the gamestate - the only link is me being bottom and you sussing me. The other reads come out of nowhere. I don't see a natural thought process here or any explanation. I will one up you tomorrow and show you what a real readslist looks like.

RadRat has played with me before, they know I am an easy elim from the right angle.
My games are on my wiki page, feel free to go look at them to get an idea of how weird a player I am.

Oh cool. A is likely scum too. I'll do either. No way town has me furtive as SS.

VOTE: furtive

Titus are you OK? Like genuinely asking

[MegAzumarill]

vc

[Alianna]

I would speculate that both her partner and the N1 target were voting to no-lim.

Why does Titus's alignment affect what the N1 target might do? I get that her and a partner may want to split their opinion so as not to seem aligned, but the N1 target wouldn't be privy to that at all.

I thought it might explain her strange associatives with the people on the no-lim wagon. She might have had reasons to call some of us information-denying scum and not mention others. That was, as I said, just me speculating though.

[Radical Rat]

@furtive
I'm going to have to ask that you just take me at my word as far as misunderstanding your joke. I'm autistic and sometimes I misinterpret jokes that seem obvious to others, especially through text where I can't listen for inflections. If you think I'm scummy for not backing down after catching that, that's fine, but I'd appreciate you not accusing me of faking simple misinterpretations like that.

[Radical Rat]

they voted me based on their own mistake which they admitted, but then are clinging to scumreading me because my reaction was apparently 'weird'. great.

To address this point, and also Flea's request for more than "too defensive,"

It's just the defensiveness alone, it's the nature of the defense. Like, you start out with just blatant OMGUS, and only very recently started to branch out from that. It felt like you were more concerned with getting people off of you than onto scum, and that's a strange attitude for Town to have so early on with only a couple votes actually on you.

That, and the way you approached the no lim, framing analysis of a potential elimination as useless because both alignments vote both ways sometimes. Which is true, but if that really made analysis useless Mafia as a game wouldn't really work. Everyone else seemed to agree that it would be useful, just not worth the numbers disadvantage, which I think is

wrong,

but makes sense. Saying nothing matters and there's no useable information to be gleaned feels like an attempt to stoke apathy and discourage pressure and scumhunting.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: furtiveglance

[MalcolmTucker]

I've been wary of Furtive and wouldn't rule them out being scum here but I think it's a style thing to a large degree, I've seen them play this way as town before so to a degree it's probably NAI. Repeatedly pushing players who disagree with them is suspect though, but again feels a bit over-obvious as a strategy to come from scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

This is just some rough thoughts so far, as is often the case I struggle for concrete reads on short D1's and I'm not often confident on gut. Also often too generous with TR's early game. Not much of a readlists person in general either but can have a go since the game is fairly small.

Cat: Bit of a hedgy style at times for me and eager to look like they're doing things without much substance being there. Post 273 for example looks like it's doing a lot of work re a possible Furtive partner but when you actually read it, it's not saying much and seems to almost rule out most of the players a bit too confidently. If I'm wrong on Furtive not being town, possible partner.

Furtive: I'm split down the middle here. As mentioned above Furtive has a pretty combative style at times and from playing with them doesn't react well to suspicion. But they were town when we played together, I'm inclined to think being genuine but overzealous here.

Titus: I think Titus has seemed townie so far. Disagree with their drive for an elimination but it felt genuine and confident as an approach. Their push for Furtive also feels genuine even though I'm not sure I agree.

Dunnstral: I didn't particularly like Dunnstral's attempt to justify a double elimination with stats: a less than half chance of randomly hitting scum for me was not an inherently good one and I found it odd they were making it out to be so. Early reads would have either one of them or Cat - but probably not both - as scum.

Goldfish: Pretty townie so far, been open-minded re either using the kill or not in a way that didn't feel too opportunistic. Keen to help with gameplay info, would like to know more re concrete reads from them going forward I think though to feel more confident in town status.

Radical Rat: I didn't necessarily agree with Radical's approach to the two-kills but I like the fact they wanted this to try and use the info from it to sort after. It's a solid justification for doing so and it's generally how I like to work in terms of later game-play, looking at how wagons form and such. Also been open-minded enough re a no-kill, town for me on the balance of things so far. Playing confidently and naturally.

Flea: Fundamentally agreed with their posts re the risks coming from relying on percentages to eliminate two players. Feel like they're pressing and pushing in a way that's reasonable thus far - not getting stuck on any one player or discussion/idea.

Alianna: Feel like there's a lot of filler early doors from this slot. Keen to clear Dunnstral in 178 on what I'd argue is quite a flimsy basis. Feel like 179 throws shade onto Titus in a way that's not entirely honest. 196 is very hedgy on what they think of Furtive. Possible Dunnstral partner maybe?

[MalcolmTucker]

TL;DR for where I am.

Town: Titus, Radical Rat, Flea, Goldfish
Swaying either way but more town: Furtive
Possible scum: Dunnstral, Alianna, Cat

[MegAzumarill]

Prodding GoldfishFromTheMoon

[furtiveglance]

@furtive
I'm going to have to ask that you just take me at my word as far as misunderstanding your joke. I'm autistic and sometimes I misinterpret jokes that seem obvious to others, especially through text where I can't listen for inflections. If you think I'm scummy for not backing down after catching that, that's fine, but I'd appreciate you not accusing me of faking simple misinterpretations like that.

Understood.