Newbie 688 - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[Moses le fou]

For BM: The reason my vote is on you (or, rather, your predecessor):

Unvote: Mastin
Vote: Panamon

First, Panamon votes for Scheherazade because of her actions in another game. Even if it wasn't against the rules, it's still a dirty tactic. It's going to affect how Scheherazade plays both games, draws from information that the rest of us are not privy to as well as giving those who are playing both games an advantage over those just playing the other game. No matter how you slice it, it's a low blow. And while it could go either way, I'm slightly more inclined to think that scum are more likely to stir up the sort of chaos that such an action would cause.

Eventually, that gets straightened up, but in the same post that he gives his mea culpa, Panamon slaps his vote on Mastin for no other reason than because he got a "scummy vibe." I can understand if we were just random voting, but Mastin already had two votes on him. My vote was placed as a semi-prod, mrfixij's because of reasons he explicitly stated. So Panamon puts Mastin at L-2 in a game with

exactly

two scum members . . . because of a "scummy vibe"?

L-2 is not the sort of vote you throw down on a whim. Either you're convinced that Mastin is scum (which it doesn't sound like you are) or you're bandwagoning.

Lack of talk from your predecessors only amplified my concerns. My meta read had me thinking that Panamon dropped out because he couldn't figure a way to argue his way out of a lynch (so, at the very least, he doesn't have a power role to claim) and QuestionMark signed up, only to find himself in a similar situation. If Panamon were town, he'd at least have, well, the truth as his defense.

And while you sort of addressed fixij's initial concern with Fos vs. vote debate, my concerns remain. As such, my vote stands.

=======================================

Page 10 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Mastin: (1/5) WeatheredClown
Moses le fou: (0/5)
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (2/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (0/5)

Not Voting: (5/9) Mastin, orangepenguin, Battle Mage, Crysnia, mrfixij,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[orangepenguin]

Panamon joined other games and was replaced out of them. I think he genuinely just left the site, pretty much.

[springlullaby]

@springlullaby: I hoped that revisiting your remark to me in your last post would help me understand it. I'm afraid I don't quite follow. I don't want to seem like I'm ignoring a charge against me: would you mind explaining and in terms that don't rely on an ongoing game?

I'm not digging this, you seem to imply that the fact C9++ is still an ongoing game has a relevance here, it has not. Whether you are town or scum in that game, it doesn't bare you from the knowledge that I was town in it because I have already been cardflipped.
___________________

BM, what do you think of Crysnia? I think she has a pretty high chance of being scum, you?

Btw, I've played two game with you, and you have so far caused my death twice, once as scum opposing town you in R-1000, another time in Nice Shot in which I was your scumbuddy. Welcome.
___________________

Crysnia, where are your suspicions now?

___________________

I dig mrfixij at the moment, the only bemol I see is a possible connection between him and BM: avoiding the Panamon wagon while pushing for the other wagons at disposition, BM fast vote and unvote possible soft bussing.

[Scheherazade]

@springlullaby: No, I just don't get what you mean. Would you explain?

[springlullaby]

I've been accused of tunnelvision in that game too, that's just how I work.

Btw, what do you think of Crysnia?

[Moses le fou]

I'm going to keep my vote on BM until I get a response, but after rereading the thread, I'm going to

FoS: Crysnia

for this post:

FOS: Mastin

This is newbie mafia, what strategy could you possibly have?

No vote yet.

You can not like my tone all you want. I have already explained myself. I am not the only one who called Panamon scum. But anyway, pointing the finger at someone else and not voting comes off as scummy.

I also think it is very odd that as soon as Moses calls out Mr.fixij, you try to turn everything around on me in an effort to pull attention away from your buddy.

It's not so much that she brought up the potential SL/fixij pairing, but that she does so after she's feeling the wrath of it. Why didn't she bring it up when Scheherazade mentioned it? Or when I did three hours afterwards, thinking I was making an original statement? It's very OMGUS-y.

Also, while re-reading the thread, I tried to come to a conclusion on Schez and fixij. They've been the most vocal players in the game and have drawn a lot of heat.

On Schez:

More than anything, she's been defensive this game. While that's really scummy, it's also entirely understandable. First Panamon blasts her with that meta about her play in the other game, and then SL takes that as a lead to grill Schez for the majority of the thread thus far. Schez tried to play nice, which got SL to express distaste for her appeasing tone. Schez gets feisty, so SL claims that Schez is being inconsistent. I imagine I'd act similarly if I were in the same situation.

I'm still a little hesitant because my basis for thinking Schez is town is basically that she's responding awkwardly to pressure and, really, that's what scum would do as well.

On fixij:

There are a lot of little things that make me suspicious of him. There was his intial eagerness to lynch Mastin on little more than policy, even going so far as to suggest that lynching poor town players wasn't all that bad (he later corrected that sentiment). A lot of his suspicion has been based on the weakest of evidence: I couldn't imagine anybody reading SL's "ulterior motives" post as anything other than an IC reminding newbs not to follow ICs blindly, but fixij found a way. Similarly, Schez wanting to know where she and WC fell on fixij's scum list (which was in reference to fixij saying that I fell somewhere between the two) being read as Schez checking on her scum buddy was quite the stretch. If I only looked at cold, hard facts, I would feel strongly enough about fixij's scumminess to unvote BM and vote fixij.

But here's the thing. I've been trying to apply potential narratives to players' actions. For example, if springlullaby is town, she's been attacking Schez so hard because, in a game full of newbies, she knows Schez's meta the best and thus would be able to tell more easily if Schez were to slip. If springlullaby is mafia, she's tunneling on Schez because she's aware of Schez's skill and wants to keep her on the defensive (and when fixij joined in, it gave her confidence that she could actually lead a lynch on him.

And here are my narratives for fixij. Scum fixij is throwing accusations around hoping one sticks and it leads to a lynch. He's most likely partnered with Panamon/QM/BM (whom he gave minor suspicions early on for distancing, but won't pull the trigger on now that he's the closest to being lynched).

Meanwhile, town fixij just wants to get the game going. The game has been woefully slow, with very little discussion (and I'll take my share of the blame, though I'd like to point out that fixij DID single me out, putting me in a precarious situation if I speak too much). And town fixij wants to get people talking. He's finding even the weakest cases to argue because it'll at least get discussion going and from there he might be able to find a stronger case.

Based on the evidence, again, scum fixij sounds more likely. Why would a townie risk pushing too hard on what could turn out to be a mislynch? But the key is fixij's tone. Beyond his overzealous play, he's expressed several times that he wants all of us to post more. Granted, he could be scum and still want more participation (more participation leads to night coming sooner, which leads to the mafia getting to kill). But more than anything, his posts read as those of a townie who plays fast and loose and is at a loss because not everybody else is playing the same way. It also explains why he'd follow SL so easily; an IC giving a prolonged, detailed argument against a single player would definitely appeal to the image that I have of town fixij. So, while fixij has made some mistakes, at the moment, his sincerity is enough to make me think he's town.

[Crysnia]

Haha..I have played two completed games with BM so far, and both those times, he was scum. I played a couple others were he wasn't scum, but he died. It was after day 3. Even though Stoofer's Law is likely a joke, BM isn't always scum, if he survives past day 3.

Your statement makes no sense and has no bearing on this game. He could have been scum 100 times in a row and the chance of him being scum in this game would be the same as any other game.

@Moses: I didn't bring it up because I didn't really see what you guys were talking about until someone asked me who was suspicious and I said fixij and the next post from spring is a vote for me.

Also it is very likely that I will be lynched today as you notice that Spring has taken to point the finger at me any chance she gets. So I am pretty much resigned to letting you guys lynch me. Yes, very anti-town behavior but nothing I have said nor say seems to be helpful. I was asked who I thought was suspicious. I gave an answer and BAM I'm scum and attacked because I answered without "proof." It is the first day and we never have proof on the first day but someone has to be lynched, right?

[Battle Mage]

One thing that I meant to add in jest and left out. Should we make it to day 3 and I not be among us, please remember Stoofer's 5th law .

Stoofer is an idiot. I actually hate you now, for reminding me that he exists.

BM

[springlullaby]

BM, who do you suspect?

[springlullaby]

Haha..I have played two completed games with BM so far, and both those times, he was scum. I played a couple others were he wasn't scum, but he died. It was after day 3. Even though Stoofer's Law is likely a joke, BM isn't always scum, if he survives past day 3.

Your statement makes no sense and has no bearing on this game. He could have been scum 100 times in a row and the chance of him being scum in this game would be the same as any other game.

@Moses: I didn't bring it up because I didn't really see what you guys were talking about until someone asked me who was suspicious and I said fixij and the next post from spring is a vote for me.

Also it is very likely that I will be lynched today as you notice that Spring has taken to point the finger at me any chance she gets. So I am pretty much resigned to letting you guys lynch me. Yes, very anti-town behavior but nothing I have said nor say seems to be helpful. I was asked who I thought was suspicious. I gave an answer and BAM I'm scum and attacked because I answered without "proof." It is the first day and we never have proof on the first day but someone has to be lynched, right?

Ah, the charm of newbie games. Lol, I just can't tell.

[orangepenguin]

Haha..I have played two completed games with BM so far, and both those times, he was scum. I played a couple others were he wasn't scum, but he died. It was after day 3. Even though Stoofer's Law is likely a joke, BM isn't always scum, if he survives past day 3.

Your statement makes no sense and has no bearing on this game. He could have been scum 100 times in a row and the chance of him being scum in this game would be the same as any other game.

Considering Stoofer's Law is more of a joke than an actual proven theory, it wasn't supposed to have any bearing on this game. I don't think BM is scum anyways, so I could care less was Stoofer's 5th Law says about BattleMage. I just thought it was funny.

[Scheherazade]

I've been accused of tunnelvision in that game too, that's just how I work.

Okay. I just don't want it to get out of control. I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was scummy, just potentially harmful to the town.

Btw, what do you think of Crysnia?

Honestly, I have seen Crysnia play mafia on another forum so my other experiences have coloured how I read her here. In that respect, her tone and her stubbornness make perfect sense to me.

I think her initial vote was well guided. I fear that her accusation of mrfixij might have been a little reactionary. It's bizarre to me that she let Battle Mage off the hook so easily, but I did ask a question on that point. I think it was missed, so I'll repeat it.

@Crysnia:

@Crysnia: I'm not sure Battle Mage's account really explains Panamon's actions. As he said, FoS is for secondary suspects. Panamon gave his primary and sole suspect the Fos while not voting at all. The fact that he practically mirrors mrfixij's FoS adds to my suspicion.

Oh, and you read Stoofer's 5th law, right?

[orangepenguin]

Even if Stoofer's 5th Law was valid, it wouldn't work, because BM replaced in.

[Scheherazade]

I know, orangepenguin, but I brought it up because I thought from her reaction to your post that she hadn't read it.

[Crysnia]

I have never read Stoofer's 5th Law. I was just stating that idea that he was putting forth didn't make much sense.

[Battle Mage]

The fact that he practically mirrors mrfixij's FoS adds to my suspicion.

This is a valid point. If i didnt know Panamon's affiliation, i'd consider this a scumtell against him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

For BM: The reason my vote is on you (or, rather, your predecessor):

Unvote: Mastin
Vote: Panamon

First, Panamon votes for Scheherazade because of her actions in another game. Even if it wasn't against the rules, it's still a dirty tactic. It's going to affect how Scheherazade plays both games, draws from information that the rest of us are not privy to as well as giving those who are playing both games an advantage over those just playing the other game. No matter how you slice it, it's a low blow. And while it could go either way, I'm slightly more inclined to think that scum are more likely to stir up the sort of chaos that such an action would cause.

Ok, i admit it. I lol'd
Obviously i cant tell what exactly was being referred to, thanks for Mod deletion of any relevant information, so it's hard for me to comment. Regardless, if your case is that using Meta is bad, then i'm afraid you are making quite the fool of yourself.

Eventually, that gets straightened up, but in the same post that he gives his mea culpa, Panamon slaps his vote on Mastin for no other reason than because he got a "scummy vibe." I can understand if we were just random voting, but Mastin already had two votes on him. My vote was placed as a semi-prod, mrfixij's because of reasons he explicitly stated. So Panamon puts Mastin at L-2 in a game with

exactly

two scum members . . . because of a "scummy vibe"?

I don't understand what 'mea culpa' means, and unlike meta, bandwagonning is a valid scumtell. But, given that he was a newbie, and this game has been pretty content-heavy, i dont find his vote especially concerning. In fact, when i joined the game, i was at -2 aswell. I hope you put the same criticism towards the last person to vote for me, else you face the risk of being guilty of the same thing you attacked Panamon for.

Lack of talk from your predecessors only amplified my concerns. My meta read had me thinking that Panamon dropped out because he couldn't figure a way to argue his way out of a lynch (so, at the very least, he doesn't have a power role to claim) and QuestionMark signed up, only to find himself in a similar situation. If Panamon were town, he'd at least have, well, the truth as his defense.

Lol, its not always that easy in newbie games. I find it far easier to play Large Themes and Large Normals, where you can breadcrumb and find other extravagant ways of confirming yourself. The reason i don't play newbie games anymore (as a rule) was because i repeatedly got lynched as town, for playing in a way that i felt was completely logical. I'd agree that flaking is not a protown power-role tell, but between vanilla and mafia it's fairly neutral. I dont think you can consider replacements to be a scumtell.

And while you sort of addressed fixij's initial concern with Fos vs. vote debate, my concerns remain. As such, my vote stands.

Concer

n

. Dont use the plural. lol

If you think of anything else, please let me know. Otherwise, i suggest you find out who put me at -2.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, who do you suspect?

Remind me to answer this question when i hear back from Moses. Atm at least, my lack of a vote should tell you where i stand.

BM

[WeatheredClown]

Wow.. looks like things are picking up..
I haven't seen anything that negates my vote for Mastin.

I do wonder about mrfixitj, but he seems awfully chatty to be scum, but sometimes strong belligerance can be an tell as well, I guess.

I really liked the pairing of springlullaby and mrfixitj in the post by Scheherazade and is definately a good post to squirrel away and look at later in the game when more is known. I'm not sure if it's really detecting a pattern or if its constructing one where there was none; It would be interesting to try to do this same thing with any other two people to find out.

Also.. welcome to Battle Mage, who has taken on the unenviable role of the second replacement for a -2 player. Showing up strong (clearing up the lingering questions raised by the previous two player's inactivity) and casting well reasoned suspicions on others is a great way to move the vote off of you.. but it certainly doesn't clear you yet.. but at least I feel like we're now going to have a fair chance at making the decision now.

[Battle Mage]

Wow.. looks like things are picking up..
I haven't seen anything that negates my vote for Mastin.

I do wonder about mrfixitj, but he seems awfully chatty to be scum, but sometimes strong belligerance can be an tell as well, I guess.

I really liked the pairing of springlullaby and mrfixitj in the post by Scheherazade and is definately a good post to squirrel away and look at later in the game when more is known. I'm not sure if it's really detecting a pattern or if its constructing one where there was none; It would be interesting to try to do this same thing with any other two people to find out.

Also.. welcome to Battle Mage, who has taken on the unenviable role of the second replacement for a -2 player. Showing up strong (clearing up the lingering questions raised by the previous two player's inactivity) and casting well reasoned suspicions on others is a great way to move the vote off of you.. but it certainly doesn't clear you yet.. but at least I feel like we're now going to have a fair chance at making the decision now.

Thanks for the warm welcome. And actually, i could be wrong, but i seem to recall somebody else being the first to point out a potential MrFixjj and SL pairing. Might have been Crysnia?

BM

[Crysnia]

Not me. It was already pointed out that it was said twice before I brought it up.

[mrfixij]

Schehera was the first to assume it, followed immediately by moses.

[Moses le fou]

Ok, i admit it. I lol'd
Obviously i cant tell what exactly was being referred to, thanks for Mod deletion of any relevant information, so it's hard for me to comment. Regardless, if your case is that using Meta is bad, then i'm afraid you are making quite the fool of yourself.

The gist of the story was that Panamon came on hard against Schez for not doing the exact same thing in this game as he was doing in another. There was no way for Schez to defend himself against that sort of accusation without bringing up the other game. And then stuff got deleted and SL started berating Schez for discussing the other game. . . It wasn't so much that he used meta as that he used that particular meta, which was dirty pool.

I don't understand what 'mea culpa' means, and unlike meta, bandwagonning is a valid scumtell. But, given that he was a newbie, and this game has been pretty content-heavy, i dont find his vote especially concerning. In fact, when i joined the game, i was at -2 aswell. I hope you put the same criticism towards the last person to vote for me, else you face the risk of being guilty of the same thing you attacked Panamon for.

"Mea culpa" is Latin for "my own fault," that is, Panamon admitted that he was wrong to bring up Schez's participation in an ongoing game after Volkan came on, demanded a cease and desist on further talk, then deleted the offending content.

In the VERY SAME POST, Panamon throws his vote on Mastin. My read on that action was that Panamon realized that he couldn't bark up that same tree without getting in trouble, so attack Mastin, who was the easiest target. He put Mastin in a precarious place because he got a "scummy vibe." Mastin could have been hammered quite easily thanks to Panamon's vote, which was incredibly tossed off.

And, for the record, I put the third vote on you. But it was for something far more developed than a "scummy vibe." I don't like how he cheated to attack Schez (and like I'd been saying, even if he didn't know it was against the rules to use an ongoing game as evidence, he still should have known it wasn't very fair). I didn't like that he put Mastin at L-2 without much thought. Most importantly, I didn't like that he immediately made the switch from underhanded attacks on Schez to potentially quicklynching Mastin.

Lol, its not always that easy in newbie games. I find it far easier to play Large Themes and Large Normals, where you can breadcrumb and find other extravagant ways of confirming yourself. The reason i don't play newbie games anymore (as a rule) was because i repeatedly got lynched as town, for playing in a way that i felt was completely logical. I'd agree that flaking is not a protown power-role tell, but between vanilla and mafia it's fairly neutral. I dont think you can consider replacements to be a scumtell.

You're playing a Newbie game right now. INCONSISTENCY.

True, needing a replacement in general isn't a tell (and, as somebody pointed out, Panamon was in another game that he dropped out of). But I'm still concerned with QuestionMark offering to replace into this game, and then basically saying that he wouldn't be able to play the game in his first post.

Concer

n

. Dont use the plural. lol

If you think of anything else, please let me know. Otherwise, i suggest you find out who put me at -2.

BM

What's wrong with the plural? If I meant "apprehension," then you'd be correct, as it would be a mass noun. However, I meant "matter of consideration," which is a count noun.

[mrfixij]

I don't like the high content of fluff coming from BM recently, as if he's trying to make the game more light hearted and get on our good sides. Also, I want more suspicion on Crys. I'll go back and see what I can't dig up, but we really need to start getting some pressure on

somebody

[Battle Mage]

Ok, i admit it. I lol'd
Obviously i cant tell what exactly was being referred to, thanks for Mod deletion of any relevant information, so it's hard for me to comment. Regardless, if your case is that using Meta is bad, then i'm afraid you are making quite the fool of yourself.

The gist of the story was that Panamon came on hard against Schez for not doing the exact same thing in this game as he was doing in another. There was no way for Schez to defend himself against that sort of accusation without bringing up the other game. And then stuff got deleted and SL started berating Schez for discussing the other game. . . It wasn't so much that he used meta as that he used that particular meta, which was dirty pool.

What other meta is there? Often we have meta's with people regarding ongoing games which we cant comment on. Whilst obviously we cant take Panamon's comments (or at least, you cant-i feasibly could) as being evidence against Schez, but equally, the fact he used his own meta knowledge is hardly a scumtell. If anything, it shows he was genuinely trying to figure out Schez's affiliation-given that a personal meta cannot constitute a case for others to act upon.

I don't understand what 'mea culpa' means, and unlike meta, bandwagonning is a valid scumtell. But, given that he was a newbie, and this game has been pretty content-heavy, i dont find his vote especially concerning. In fact, when i joined the game, i was at -2 aswell. I hope you put the same criticism towards the last person to vote for me, else you face the risk of being guilty of the same thing you attacked Panamon for.

"Mea culpa" is Latin for "my own fault," that is, Panamon admitted that he was wrong to bring up Schez's participation in an ongoing game after Volkan came on, demanded a cease and desist on further talk, then deleted the offending content.

In the VERY SAME POST, Panamon throws his vote on Mastin. My read on that action was that Panamon realized that he couldn't bark up that same tree without getting in trouble, so attack Mastin, who was the easiest target. He put Mastin in a precarious place because he got a "scummy vibe." Mastin could have been hammered quite easily thanks to Panamon's vote, which was incredibly tossed off.

So your point is that, upon realising he didnt have a real case on Schez, Panamon moved to his secondary target? This is not scummy.

And, for the record, I put the third vote on you. But it was for something far more developed than a "scummy vibe." I don't like how he cheated to attack Schez (and like I'd been saying, even if he didn't know it was against the rules to use an ongoing game as evidence, he still should have known it wasn't very fair).

Lol, the irony is irresistable.

Vote: Moses Le Fou

I have to admit, i was half anticipating an answer along these lines. You claim as part of the case against me that putting someone at L-2 is scummy, and yet you put me at L-2, SOLELY BECAUSE OF THIS. It's like claiming OMGUS is a scumtell, and then voting for someone who just voted for you.
If you cant acknowledge the fact that the reason you think i am scum, also applies to you in equal measure, then my vote will stand.
Furthermore, as this is a newbie game, and i'm meant to be teaching, using a meta is not immoral. I will sometimes even use ongoing games in my head, if i know something that can help. It isnt against the rules-any more than trying to catch scum any other way. If it works, it works.

Most importantly, I didn't like that he immediately made the switch from underhanded attacks on Schez to potentially quicklynching Mastin.

AtoE. Nice.

Lol, its not always that easy in newbie games. I find it far easier to play Large Themes and Large Normals, where you can breadcrumb and find other extravagant ways of confirming yourself. The reason i don't play newbie games anymore (as a rule) was because i repeatedly got lynched as town, for playing in a way that i felt was completely logical. I'd agree that flaking is not a protown power-role tell, but between vanilla and mafia it's fairly neutral. I dont think you can consider replacements to be a scumtell.

You're playing a Newbie game right now. INCONSISTENCY.

Lol, yeh, i made an exception because i needed another game.

BM